Pope Francis
Pope Francis is the first from the Americas, the first Jesuit, the first from the “Global South,” and the first in 600 years to replace a man still very much alive.
Many of our readers will no doubt take umbrage at the coverage we here at Monomakhos give to other Christian confessions. As is known, your humble correspondent takes an expansive view of Christ’s Church. Thus what happens in (say) the Catholic Church or the Anglican Communion can be significant to the Orthodox Church. We do not live in a vacuum.
The Salutary Effects of Catholicism on the Orthodox Church
Pope John Paul II
John Paul II for example recognized the liturgical vibrancy that emanates from the East, as noted in his encyclical Orientale Lumen. It is hard to say who influenced whom regarding certain internal matters —specifically regarding the ordination of women to the priesthood. Yet John Paul II’s ruling that the priestly office was closed to all women for all time could not be anything but helpful to Orthodox, who because of our often pitiful circumstances in the West, are daily buffeted by modernist pressures to compromise our faith.
Pope Benedict & Met. Hilarion (Alfeyev)
Benedict also opened to Catholic audiences the legacy of Orthodox Christianity and the West’s debt to the East in his Regensburg Address.
Modernism and the Moral Collapse of Western Civilization
One could say that this is all window dressing. But it is not. The compromises to the faith are part and parcel of what John Paul II called the Culture of Death. He recognized it for the juggernaut that it was. Because his body was crippled by disease the last years of his life, he would not be able combat it. However he did the next best thing in that he elevated good men to the rank of Cardinal, a process which was completed by his successor. The demon of Liberation Theology was exorcised by both men with their appointment of conservatives to the College of Cardinals.
Pat. Kyrill
As to why Benedict felt compelled to resign we can only speculate. Some took him to task; did not John Paul II remain in office despite his pain and suffering? Yes, but John Paul also dropped the ball regarding the pedophile scandals that rocked the Church. Perhaps Benedict was given a measure of grace to recognize that his increasingly feeble body was not up to the task regarding the lavender cabals that had seeped into the very walls of the Vatican City itself. It has been whispered that a reformer in the mould of Francis would be needed to root out this corruption once and for all. If so, then the Lord will look kindly on Benedict’s resignation I believe.
Saving Europe (and America) from Nihilism
What does this all mean for we Orthodox? What does this mean for Benedict’s mission to save Europe from itself?
It’s hard to say at this point. In my opinion, the election of Francis means that the Roman Catholic Church is repositioning itself, looking away from Europe to the Global South. For those of us of European descent and who treasure the legacy of the West, this is disheartening. But it speaks volumes about the capacity of the Papacy to fight battles that it can win. It should not be forgotten that prudence is one of the cardinal virtues. If nothing else, Francis’ election showed the agility of the College of Cardinals.
So what accounted for this need to be nimble? To pivot to the South? In my humble opinion it is because the nihilistic juggernaut represented by ardent homosexuality has completed its takeover of the West.
Allow a digression if you will: the United States has now become the premier crusader for homosexualism throughout the world. It is bringing force to bear against sovereign states to legalize so-called gay marriage. Likewise our State Department has pressured societies to support abortion on demand. Both lead to the destruction of the family, which even pagan philosophers such as Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle saw as the basis of civilization. This is nothing less than demonic.
So where does Pope Francis stand on this? In his battle against the Kirchners of Argentina, who fought to legalize gay “marriage,” he said this:
“Let’s not be naive, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere hill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”
Contrary to the Tolerant Set, this is what it’s really about. The mechanics of homoerotic coition are certainly destructive in and of themselves but they are more than that: they are actions are nihilist to the core; one could say the “desacraments” of an evil being. We have seen how those who champion these acts have taken over churches in the West and the institutions of those other churches that have not yet succumbed to their demonic program.
It is my fervent hope that His Holiness will be able to continue this battle against nihilism, perhaps on friendlier territory. And then when the North is laid waste, a new Christendom can arise.
A very reasonable presentation here, George.
Let me note, however, that the satanic pro-abortion/homosexual coalition (identified and deplored in the Manhattan Declaration) is every bit as strong in Latin America as it is in North America and Europe.
One suspects the Cardinals weighed this fact when they chose the new and—as far as we can tell—godly Bishop of Rome.
Except for Metropolitan PHILIP, have any of our own bishops used the expression “Father of Lies” in reference to that satanic coalition?
It is very sad Fr that so few Orthodox bishops are as brave as Pope Francis and Metropolitan Philip. Moral clarity is always appreciated.
I guess with the ouster of Jonah there’s one fewer bishop who spoke with such moral clarity in our fold.
“It is very sad Fr that so few Orthodox bishops are as brave as Pope Francis and Metropolitan Philip.”
I would amend that to:
It is very sad Fr that so few Orthodox bishops WHO ARE TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH are as brave as Pope Francis and Metropolitan Philip.
A lot of wonderful things are happening in Orthodoxy, especially in Russia. Unfortunately so little of it gets reported in translation.
You’re right. As much as I admire the ROC, the fact remains that I am an American and the momentum towards gay “marriage” is now unstoppable. Would that we had courageous bishops here in the States who could at least stand in the breach.
Look, I’m a live and let live kinda guy, always have been, always will be. The homosexual juggernaut however is unstoppable and it will lead to the persecution of the Church. Passively at first, then aggressively. That’s all.
Of course we don’t live in a vacuum, of course what happens in the Catholic Church is significant to the Orthodox Church. The difficulty I, at least, have is that much of the commentary on Catholicism on Monomakhos, especially from former Catholics, is one-sidedly positive. Your commentary above is an example of that one-sidedness, George. There is no analysis of what separates Catholics from Orthodoxy. It is as if those differences are set aside for the sake of uniting in the cultural battle for Christendom against nihilism. You forget that Christ’s kingdom is not of this world.
Last time I studied Latin was my sophomore year in public high school in suburban Detroit that is, in 1948. Shouldn’t we be saying “Habeant papam?” Help, please. No doubt, the new Pope will not alter that stand of the Roman Church on ANYTHING and any talk of a married presbytery is probably doomed.
Roman Catholic ordination is institutionalized contraception, no?
BT-
“habeant papam” would translate into “have pope” (try google translate when in doubt)
Endings in Latin (generally speaking):
-o(I) -mus (we)
-s(you) -tis (you all)
-t(it,he,she) -nt (they)
The verb is habeo, habere, habevi, habitus: to have
drop the -re off the second principle part and add the appropriate ending, in this case, the first person plural -mus (translated as -we).
OR was your Grace trying to make a clever editorial quip in his usual style?
Then his grace should have suggested the following title:
“Habent papam” which would translate as “They have a pope.” (nudge, nudge, wink, wink…say no more…eh, eh?)
If you understand this lesson you qualify as Latin geek.
‘nit picking”! Obviously Father Ambrose is more accurate. Habeant papam” IS a (hortatory) subjunctive, and ‘Let them have (a) pope” is a quite adequate translation of it.
Vladyka, bless!
It’s actually “habent”. “Habeant” is a subjunctive present, correct if Your Grace would literally translate “let them have a pope”.
Talk of a married presbytery in the RCC is, as far as I can see, far from doomed (especially with a new pope coming from Latin America), but hampered by practical reasons and by a strong resistance from the bishops which were formed under the long pontificate of John Paul II. I suppose we could credit pope Benedict XVI with a certain willingness to consider more “Orthodox-like” stances on this and related matters (like the re-admission of remarried Catholics to Communion), as well as for not having imposed such changes by the exertion of papal prerogatives.
Asking Your Grace’s blessing and prayers,
hegumen Ambrose (Turin, Italy)
Dear Hegumen Ambrose,
Do we have any Orthodox churches in Rome near the Vatican. If it is true that the new Pope has been used to celebrating Julian calendar Nativity with the Orthodox, do we have somewhere nearby for him to go so we can help him convert the Roman Catholics to Orthodoxy? 🙂
Catholices Papam habeant. Habemus Spiritum Sanctum!
Yes, we do! Pretty much in sight of Saint Peter’s cupola, yet on extra-territorial ground belonging to the Russian embassy (so, technically speaking, “within” Russia):
Church of Saint Catherine the great martyr
As for celebrating the Julian calendar Nativity, that might have happened with certain Uniates (some of them use the Julian calendar). I cannot immagine how he could have celebrated “with the Orthodox”, if “with” means anything more than a coincidence of date.
Email I have is that Pope Francis slipped into Orthodox Nativity service back home. Don’t know about when in Rome and can’t verify. He supposedly didn’t concelebrate, but he did show up more than once.
There is a relatively small Greek Orthodox Church in Rome; (even though there are a lot of students from Greece studying in Rome). In the mid-1960’s, Metropolitan Maximos, Formerly of Pittsburgh, (GOAA), was its parish priest while he studied at the Pontifical Institute of Eastern Studies. (He was graduated from the Halki Theological School and received a Th. D. from the University of Louvain.) +Maximos was a representative of the Ecumenical Patriarchate as an “observer delegate” at the 2nd Vatican Council. By the way, Patriarch Bartholomew was his deacon at that time.
The Former Archbishop of America Spyridon (’96-’99), was a parish priest in that church too, in the early 1980’s. He later became an assistant bishop assigned to Italy, and not long after Patriarch Bartholomew’s ascension to the Ecumenical Throne, he became the first ruling Metropolitan of Italy.
I know ROCOR and the Patriarchate of Moscow are represented in Italy, but I don’t know if they have parishes in Rome.
The relatively small Greek Orthodox Church in Rome is Saint Andrew, currently hosting a Georgian Orthodox congregation.
The Greek Orthodox community has now a larger church, Saint Theodore Tyro, just near the Palatine hill in Rome.
St. Andrew is a Greek embassy property, whereas St. Theodore was given by the RCC as an act of fraternal goodwill in 2004.
I had no recollection of Metropolitan Maximos (Aghiorgoussis) being one of the parish priests at St. Andrew; thanks, Bruce, for the interesting info.
The Moscow Patriarchate is represented in Italy (more than 50 parishes and communities), and in Rome, besides the church of Saint Catherine (actually multi-congregational: the lower church hosts services in Romanian for the faithful from Moldova), it has the church of Saint Nicholas.
The ROCOR has no longer any parish in Italy: the church in Bari functions as a stavropegial parish directly under the Patriarch, while Bishop Michael (Donskoff) of Geneva mantains there the right of a “podvorye”. If any new ROCOR parish should develop in Italy, it would be under the omophorion of Bishop Michael. We have recently heard of a petition by a former schismatic group in Central Italy to be received by Bishop Jerome (Shaw) under the ROCOR Western Rite Vicariate, but so far nothing has appeared in the Vicariate directory.
The Romanian Patriarchate also has 11 Orthodox parishes in Rome, and about 190 in Italy.
http://episcopia-italiei.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=34&Itemid=56&lang=ro&limitstart=100
Indeed! The larger figure of 190 parishes leaves aside some communities still in a developing stage, but with regular services, so I can dare to credit the Romanian Orthodox Church with more than 200 parishes in Italy, more than those of all the other jurisdictions combined together. Bishop Siluan (Ĺžpan) is young and very competent, with a very good grasp of many languages (native Romanian, English, French, Italian, Russian, and a working knowledge of Greek and Slavonic… like Saint Paisius Velichkovsky’s dream come true). Romanian is also the mother tongue of a large part (arguably, a majority) of clergy and faithful of the Moscow Patriarchate in Italy, and to a smaller extent even of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. I cannot state which will be the language of the future among the Orthodox in Italy, but Romanian is the language of the present, without comparison.
Thanks, Father Ambrose! The Lord bless you.
You’re spot on right. I had first responded on Facebook to one of the first of the multitude who proudly showed that they know what is said at such an election, “habemus papam”, with “Well,they can take him and…..” And although it was an error for me to propose ‘habeant’ for ‘they have,” you now soothe me, as it were, by letting me know that “habeant papam’ expresses exactly what i really wanted to say!
+Bishop Tikhon
Good point. I refrain from criticising the other Christian confessions because I have no standing within them. Instead, I gingerly talk about the horrendous liturgical laxity that our Catholic brothers are exposed to and the callisthenics that take place in the Evangelical mega-churches. I would be more full-throated in my denunciations except that my hand is stayed by the fact that we Orthodox have miserably failed in comparison to do that which our Lord commands us. “Feed the poor, clothe the naked, visit the jailed, etc.”
Instead, we waste time on episcopal assemblies that accomplish next to nothing. Even the OCA has now degenerated to a Nostalgia Club.
All we need to know about this man is that he feeds the poor.
No, sorry. That’s not enough. Feeding the poor is every bit a secular humanistic endeavor as it is a Christian one.
I must protest. “Feeding the poor” is no more “secular humanist” than preaching the Gospel is. Secular humanism is based on Darwinism. In Darwinism, there is no desire or need to clothe the naked, feed the poor, visit the prisoner, etc.
That secular humanist societies do engage in feeding the poor can only be attributed to the moral capital of Christianity that resides in any given Western nation.
Socialism based on the concept of “survival of the fittest”? Darwinism more closely fits modern Free Market doctrine.
Nonsense Dan. Free market – true free market economies- thrive most when there are actually strict Constitutions and laws that people adhere too. Strong rule of law. Not big bureaucracies and cronyism, but rules that set the playing field. You’ll find it’s when communities grow these rules and/or stray from their ethos is when we get in trouble.
Furthermore, if you read folks like Hayek you’ll quickly learn that Free Markets work best with the institution of a moral code. It doesn’t necessarily have to be Christian, but certain beliefs like charity, the sanctity of life, and even the sanctity of marriage i.e. the belief that there is sacredness in society are crucial to a free market. Hayek taught that you cannot consider yourself a free marketeer and simultaneously promote or be indifferent to infanticide.
I think that the problem with part of the current libertarian movement is that they soon will realize that the libertine – everything goes-anarchy – mindset, which is the actual Darwinist element of the movement, will not mesh well with the free market as their natural niche is actually within the progressive movements that create bureaus to sustain the “anything goes” in the name of suppressing the ethos that is fertile ground to freedom and prosperity. You cannot have true freedom without the ideal of sacredness.
Macedoniandeek: Sacredness, natural order (a hierarchy of being and values), an understanding of the createdness of us and things (we are not the measure of all), a quest for virtue.
No economic system works well and justly once the sense of the sacredness of life and the hierarchy of that life is not implicitly recognized in soceity and law.
The state is the creature of the morality and virtue of the citizenry. It is a mirror of our souls.
Actually, you’re right. However that’s where the Church comes in to play. The Church has been feeding the poor and clothing the naked since Pentecost. It’s our job. The job of the State is to “provide for the common defense and promote welfare.” It does this by enacting sane laws, enforcing such laws, providing a secure currency, and upholding the natural order of things. All things being equal, a man and woman united in holy matrimony are the best guarantor of economic well-being provided they are encouraged by a laissez faire economic policy which rewards virtue. Our government rewards vice even to the point of subsidizing it. That’s why we have a national debt that will break us in the end. (Probably by design by the way.)
True! Christ’s Kingdom is not of this World. However, each one of us lives in this world at this point of time and we are each responsible for leaning towards good behavior . We are also, as best as possible, to carry out Jesus’s view to help the needy, suffering, and the poor, Among other things. The stronger and more united the Church the greater impact it can have in supporting those endeavors — as well as preach the message of Jesus.
Would it seem likely that Jesus would give more “credit” to an Orthodox Christian who helps the needy as compared to another Christian who is not Orthodox? If so, that sounds like similar logic that was used by the “Pharasee” who claimed superiority over the Roman Tax Collector.
I was referring to viewing the church through a this worldly political prism, Clawdia, not good works in service of the poor.
But Christianity isn’t mere moralism. The content of our faith does matter.
A bit odd that a comment saying that Christianity is more than moralism and that our beliefs matter would be so voted down on an Orthodox website. I guess St. Maximus the Confessor was foolish to make such a fuss.
Odd ducks abound and not all the negatives are from Orthodox.
It’s the negative votes that may be from Orthodox that I worry about, Michael.
Well, Basil, I was trying to be optimistic.
Repentance should be at the top of our list to contemplate and to do this time of year. I find it difficult to understand when people in the Orthodox Church seem to have no concept that such repentance does not mean just accepting the way we are and acquiesing in whatever passions bedevil us.
It is hard unglamorous unpleasant work to look inward and realize the darkness that is there and how much of that darkness the world and most of the people I know think its just fine.
For clergy in the Church to lie to folks and leave them in their sins (whatever sins they have) is just wrong or so I have been taught or so I have read.
Just don’t vote. I find the concept of voting or “liking” anything or anyone online something like judging others.
Clawdia! Your talk of ‘giving credit” is totally RC! Thus, an RC “gets credit” for looking at a monstrance, or watching a priest elevate the Host and so on. That kind of mentality USED to be the opposite of our Orthodox humility which doesn’t allow one to raise one’s eyes to the Holy, let alone get credit for it. Of course, in America the RC idea is much more native, and American Orthodox, used to the RC idea of credit through looking, now resists Holy Doors, ‘big” iconostases and anything which keeps them from LOOKING AT.
Here’s your question again;
“:Would it seem likely that Jesus would give more “credit” to an Orthodox Christian who helps the needy as compared to another Christian who is not Orthodox?” TYPICAL!
By the way, you wrote “The Roman Tax Collector.” Did you mean the Jew who collected the Roman taxes, I hope? AS for “similar logic,” there’s no logic in such thoughts at all.
And you say “we are each responsible for leaning towards good behavior ” “LEANING TOWARDS????’
Thank you your Grace for your critique. I used the word “credit” mainly as a rhetorical device, Certainly the Orthodox are taught we should exercise humility. Further as we grow in the faith (preferably when we are young) an Orthodox Christian should develop an in bread attitude to reach out to help the needy where we can. That should be automatic behavior.
I should have just used the word publican to make it clear on the tax collector.
As far as leaning towards the good, I stand by that idea. Possibly, you may have forgot in this world, we also share it with Satan and his fallen angels who have no remorse in causing situations to trap everyone, especially Christians in to sin, making mistakes and difficult situations. Since no one on earth is perfect, absolute good is not going to occur, save Jesus or the Holy Spirit.
We should concentrate on doing good, not on tending to do good, not on leaning toward doing good.
We should reach out to help the needy, whether the impulse to do so is developed OR in-bred.
I’m surprised that this writer didn’t take the pseudonym ‘Frau Stoehr”, rather than Clawdia Chauchate
From what I understand of Orthodox tradition, all of us have different strengths and weaknesses that express themselves in our spiritual life: I might have a weakness for alcohol but no problem regarding overeating. Alternatively, Joe might not be able to fast because he can’t control his gluttony, though he is never tempted to even take a drink of alcohol. Similarly, some of us are very good when dealing with emotionally unstable people or the poor. Others of us, however, are uncomfortable around them and are too judgmental regarding the poor — though we’re excellent when it comes to instructing the youth regarding what is good for their souls. Consequently, it would be spiritually damaging and dangerous if we all tried to help the poor, emotionally unstable people, or work with youth. Those of us that have the gift and spiritual assistance from God to help the poor or sick can do so whereas the rest of us may alienate them from the faith by our bad or awkward example. So, before we decide to do these things we should know that we’re spiritually ready to take them on. For those of us that aren’t, there’s always prayer. To think that prayer won’t feed the hungry assumes God isn’t listening and I’m not sure that’s a conclusion we want to endorse.
Our brother, Basil, reminds us that our Lord’s Kingdom is “not of this world.” True, but then He has also taught us to pray: “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.”
What happens to the world when, and as, that prayer is answered?
lxc
We have a pope, but he still doesn’t have us.
Something which could arguably be viewed as a positive.
Well, so much for “…that they all may be one.” [[inserting eye-roll.]]
Mr. Observer it’s quite simple. If the RCC returns to the faith it left we will be one! To claim otherwise is Universalism.
In the words of Nate B: “Are we actively working for the unity of the Body of Christ, or merely creating more dissention by continuing to think ourselves superior in every way?”
(Thanks, Nate!)
Well ,how about this, CO & Nate B.: when the Pope renounces his unhistorical, unorthodox claims to universal jurisdiction, we’ll talk about being one. In the meantime, can you really blame us for protesting?
CO. The Church is One. She is not divided. Schismatics and heretics are the one’s in multiplicity. If you want to be part of the oneness of Christ, His Church, you are always welcome. Repent, come home and be restored.
I don’t know — an “expansive view of Christ’s Church?” This sounds like Freemasonic cant. There is only one True Church if you’re Orthodox — the Orthodox Church. What other Churches do you have in mind as being “Christ’s Church?” In video linked below is from JP II’s interreiigious conference held in Assisi. You’ll see Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Pagans, Animists, Muslims, and others welcomed by JP II. You’ll also see them praying together. At 6:25 into the video, you’ll see footage of a Buddhist prayer service where Buddhists were allowed to use a local parish where they put a statue of Buddha on the altar. Do you really believe these actions are those of a traditional Bishop trying to turn the tide of apostasy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EduYdl1QxaA
While you mention it, patrick, Francis, when cardinal-archbishop of Buenos Aires, is reported to have allowed his cathedral to be used by Muslims and Jews for worship services. And yet Fr Patrick Reardon can refer to him as a godly man. I think there is a distinct lack of discernment there from both Francis and Fr Patrick. After all, it’s not as if there are no synagogues or mosques in BA. There is a symbolism (& syncretism) evident in these reports that speaks volumes. The number of “thumbs down”
that I receive here will also speak volumes re the spiritual discernment of Monomakhos readers. We are surely living in the last times.
Pope Francis of the Catholic Church declares homosexuality to be deriving from the father of all lies.
Archbishop Benjamin of the OCA declares that the Orthodox faith moves “glacially slow” to “welcome” and “fully commune” with practicing homosexual couples. (Basil, this has been clearly documented with references to the couples–plural–in question.)
Spiritual discernment? Whatever. The more we “discern” divisions among us, the more we become pawns of that father of all lies. Are we actively working for the unity of the Body of Christ, or merely creating more dissention by continuing to think ourselves superior in every way?
I will pray for Pope Francis every single day, and I will light a candle for him before the Icon of the Theotokos every night during my prayers. God has created this man to perform a mission, and God has given him a great task. With God’s help, Pope Francis will work towards Unity of all of God’s sons and daughters, whether Catholic, Orthodox, Muslim, or Jew.
Picking a rather obscure bishop as an example is hardly commendable. You also have a rather selective approach to the RCC. You should try visiting some parishes on the West Coast some time, you might be appalled by how much homosexuality has become an acceptable norm within the RCC.
St. Isaac of Syria prayed for the conversion of the demons. He could do so presumably because he was such a towering saint and so full of Grace that he could see deeper into things than we can probably ever imagine. Here, discernment was necessary, for what was in some way natural for St. Isaac to do in his advanced state of theosis (his desire to pray for them must have naturally and organically developed out of a profound sense of love) is clearly not appropriate for those of us far removed from his sanctity.
In this regard, I’m not sure that any of us has the discernment necessary to tell if the Pope should be prayed for by having a candle lit for him. For whatever reason, God allowed the Latin Church to depart from the Orthodox Church. Throughout the Old Testament there is a pattern of the second born son being the one that finds God’s favor. While there are different readings as to what this means, perhaps it is also a reminder that the relationship of God to His creation is according to His will and not necessarily ours: God will favor who He will favor. In this regard, it’s fair to ask if we aren’t courting prelest by undertaking spiritual efforts that we believe are necessarily praiseworthy as opposed to ones that grow out of repentance. If I understand what’s in the Philokalia and other writings like it, pure prayer seems to require, and grow out of, repentance first rather than our own sense of what we believe God should do for our good or the good of the world. Who knows — just a thought.
Oh, yes.
And more than that, there’s love, the love of God for all His creation: ‘God SO loved the world that He sent His only son’ to save us and bring us to everlasting life.
St Gregory of Nyssa’s only written theological error (which he recanted and repented and withdrew when corrected) was his assertion of the apokatasasis tOn pantOn — the reinstatement of everyone — as an inevitable conclusion of God’s love for His creation at the end of time.
Gregory was wrong, of course, on this point only because of the one and single only problem that his theory completely eliminated our human responsibility to exercise free will and be bound by the consequences of our choices.
Now, all that theory being well tucked in and put to bed, we also must admit that only God is eternally, inexorably changeless. Only God remains the same, no matter what.
But all of us, His rational creatures, Angel and Man — able as we are to make rational and moral decisions — are not only changeable, but just as reformable and repentable as we are able to rebel against God and fall into sin.
This eternal stability of God and the free-will-fired fickleness of His creatures leaves wide open the question of whether Satan and the fallen angels with him might yet repent and be saved.
We ought to entreat the Lord for that along with our fervent prayers that all humanity will be saved — the roman pope and his flock included.
God is so good, most good, all good. Let us never doubt that He intends the very best for us and for all His creation.
Basil my friend, we’ve been living in the “last of times” since 33 A.D. There have been many people in each of the one hundred some-odd generations since Pentecost who have zealously believed theirs to be the last.
At some point, of course, those of one generation will be right.
I suppose that I should be grateful that you have perfected the requisite discernment to warn the rest of us that we are it.
Always glad to see such nice, measured, thoughtful, spiritually discerning responses. That’s why our Orthodox Churches are packed to the rafters!
Whatchoo talkin’ about Willis??!
What a minute? No one sees a problem with the statement I quoted?
Sure. The quote is based on a false premise: there is disunity. God is one; the Church is one; those who submit themselves to the Love of God and commune with Him are one.
There is only one communion. The way into is repentance. Not just sorry for getting caught but the repentance that allows God to change us.
Dear Mak,
You are expecting the Pope not to be a latinizer?
RCC = Universalism, provided, of course, all submit to the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome.
Are you sure about this, Cardinal Jorge allowed Moslem’s and Jews to conduct worship services in a Roman Catholic church? That is horrific if true.
It is true, Bruce.
Regrettably, few here seem to have a problem with it.
Adios!
I for one would have many problems with such an event. (I also don’t agree with Francis’ criticism of Pope Benedict’s Regensburg Address.)
Well, George, you need to spell that out, instead of praising Francis without qualification.
I intend to. Also, I take Francis to task for criticizing Benedict’s Regensburg Address. Benedict was spot on quoting Manuel II Paleologos. As much as we should dialogue with Muslims and other faith groups, the fact remains that Islam as a civilization has been a force for darkness. Wherever it thrived, it did so because it accepted Christian elements. This is not an indictment btw, most Semitic-origin and other non-Europeans civilizations (outside of the Far East) are derivative.
Basil, would you be so kind as to provide reliable documentary evidence regarding the accuracy of the allegation that Jorge Cardinal Bergolio allowed Muslims and Jews “to conduct worship services” in the RC Cathedral of Buenos Aires? Why would he do so? Why would they have wanted to?
lxc
Here’s a quote I found from Rabbi Alejandro Avruj that comes close to our brother Basil’s allegation:
“He’s the one [Jorge Cardinal Bergolio] who opened the cathedral of Buenos Aires for interfaith ceremonies, like when we prayed for peace. He’s not one of those who waits for you to call them to participate in these events — he promotes them.” Certainly, interfaith ceremonies are, themselves, problematic, but this is a somewhat lesser “offense” than allowing Jews and Mulsims “to conduct” worship services “in the Cathedral.” I presume the altar was not used. Were the icons, crosses and statues left unveiled?
Reaching out to persons of other faiths is not an easy path and there are dangers along the way of giving scandal. But how shall they believe except one be sent? And how shall that one receive a hearing? Sometimes the first step is to listen to and appreciate the other and “earn” the right to gain his willingness to hear and receive. We are sent to be fishers of men and fishermen must be wise and patiently seek ways to get the fish to bite or accept to enter the net–especially when the fish are rational and endowed with free will.
lxc
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/03/18/argentine-jews-hope-pope-francis-will-continue-interfaith-dialogue-promoted-as/#ixzz2O0G8ZtIX
Three points:
First, many of the Orthodox patriarchs and primates have sent Francis congratulatory messages of one sort or another — Bart, Kyrill (and Hilarion), Irinej, and your very own Tikhon to name a few. However you may want to look at this, each rather respectfully addresses the newly-elected, currently schismatic, bishop of Rome with variations of “Your Holiness.” And there do not seem to be triple speak Ortho-diplobabble slaps either. (These guys reserve that art for communciations among themselves.)
That said, I’m sure conspiracy theorists will dust off their aluminium foil caps and micro parse every comma to develop the meme that the Orthodox are now all doomed to some unacceptable form of “reconciliation” with the Romans, to be henceforth enslaved to the Illuminati, Freemasons, and World Bank.
Second, buried among the many Francis publicly available bios is this tidbit: “Bergoglio succeeded Cardinal Quarracino as Archbishop of Buenos Aires on 28 February 1998 and was concurrently named ordinary for Eastern Catholics in Argentina, who had lacked their own prelate.” Exploring this second factoid may give us some insight as to how Francis will theologically relate to the Orthodox.
Last, you don’t need to watch an HBO/Showtime mini-series to realize that the history of the Roman church ain’t exactly exemplary. Nor do you need two decades praying on Mt. Athos to conclude that there are serious issues with their theological innovations, liturgical contortions, and doctrinal extrapolations. But, you only need to look at the IslamoNazis, the Lavendar Mafia, and “Planned Parenthood,” and come to the conclusion that we — Orthodox and Catholic — are confronting very serious challenges. The challenges aren’t necessarily new or unprecedented. But they go to the core of who we are, who we think we were, and who we believe we should be.
It may not be a good or sound theologic idea to pray together in the same place at the same time, but it sure as hell makes sense to fight together against these children of “the Father of Lies.”
No human being is a match for the enemy of Mankind. Christ tells Simon that the Devil will sift him as wheat. Who really believes these battles can be fought with joint prayers, cultural warriors, GK Chesterton and Belloc quotes? Concerns regarding ecumenical events are related to concerns regarding ecclesiology, the “branch theory,” and the creation of a spiritual climate where the Truth of Christ is diluted or rejected. Those that participate in these kinds of events may think they’re joining a fight against a bigger evil; yet, if it requires one to pray with heretics or schismatics, what would the Church Fathers say? One can superciliously deride such concerns as those of the tinfoil hat brigade but this seems to beg the question. Who we “are” is contained in the Symbol of Faith recited at every Liturgy — is it more complicated than that?
We can choose to say our morning and evening prayers, fast according to the calendar, go to confession every week, and prepare as instructed by the Saints for communion. Beyond this, there are other things we can choose to do to go deeper into our faith. These things alone are no small challenge — yet, we’re also supposed to fight an invisible enemy with supernatural powers who fights an asymmetrical war, who has assets deployed to watch and listen to us without our being aware of the machinations undertaken to ensnare and trip us up. How exactly will reaching out to other religions and Christian confessions help us win this battle? Whether Orthodox churches are packed to the rafters would seem to be irrelevant. If people reject the Truth of Christ, that doesn’t mean it should be repackaged or re-branded to attract larger numbers. The Church is the Truth, not a business.
Patrick, you are spot on.
All through the process leading up to the election of Francis is the cry of Roman Catholics for “change”. How comfortable we orthodox are with no “change”. I never hear of anyone or group asking for “change”. I suspect many in the RC hierarchy are just a little envious.
Let me note, however, that the satanic pro-abortion/homosexual coalition (identified and deplored in the Manhattan Declaration) is every bit as strong in Latin America as it is in North America and Europe.
True, its like you hear particulary from neo-con Republicans that Hispanics being Catholic means they are against gay marriage or abortion this isn’t always the case. Gay marriage is legal in Mexico City and might be legal in parts of Brazil. Brazil is known as sexually lax. A protestant who writes on the Vdare Website Allen Wall mentions that in Mexico adultery is more socally acceptable if the woman is not martied. Wall lived 10 years in Mexico teaching English. Now I know that probably adultery rates are high in the Us as well but in the US adultery is not seen as ok. Abortion is legal in Mexico City.
don’t know — an “expansive view of Christ’s Church?” This sounds like Freemasonic cant. There is only one True Church if you’re Orthodox — the Orthodox Church. What other Churches do you have in mind as being “Christ’s Church?” In video linked below is from JP II’s interreiigious conference held in Assisi. You’ll see Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Pagans, Animists, Muslims, and others welcomed by JP II. You’ll also see them praying together. At 6:25 into the video, you’ll see footage of a Buddhist prayer service where Buddhists were allowed to use a local parish where they put a statue of Buddha on the altar. Do you really believe these actions are those Well, Orthodox are involved with liberal protestants in the WCC or NCC which are just as bad some times.
They are indeed — perhaps it’s because they’ve lost some important element of a true Orthodox consciousness? The Orthodox are not immune from being seduced by the “Spirit of the Age.” Purportedly, Fr. Seraphim Rose was troubled by the thought that in the End Times, even Orthodox Hierarchs will bow down before anti-Christ. This is what the Great Apostasy seems to involve. So, why should we be surprised that some Orthodox clergy have unfortunately fallen into the false promises of the WCC and NCC? Perhaps this is a spiritual barometer of our times, one that indicates it is later than we think and time to listen more to the teaching of the Fathers instead of the pleas to “join together.”
don’t know — an “expansive view of Christ’s Church?” This sounds like Freemasonic cant. There is only one True Church if you’re Orthodox — the Orthodox Church. What other Churches do you have in mind as being “Christ’s Church?” In video linked below is from JP II’s interreiigious conference held in Assisi. You’ll see Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Pagans, Animists, Muslims, and others welcomed by JP II. You’ll also see them praying together. At 6:25 into the video, you’ll see footage of a Buddhist prayer service where Buddhists were allowed to use a local parish where they put a statue of Buddha on the altar. Do you really believe these actions are those Well, Orthodox are involved with liberal protestants in the WCC or NCC which are just as bad some times.
That said, I’m sure conspiracy theorists will dust off their aluminium foil caps and micro parse every comma to develop the meme that the Orthodox are now all doomed to some unacceptable form of “reconciliation” with the Romans, to be henceforth enslaved to the Illuminati, Freemasons, and World Bank.
Do these same Orthodox have ever a concern being involved with the NCC or WCC which Liberal Protestants are behind.
Yes, deep and grave concern.
The Orthodox have no business in or with the NCC or WCC. Why? Because they are the embodiment of those who sympathize with, and further the agenda of, the IslamoNazis, Lavender Mafia and “Planned Parenthood.”
“Benedict for his part brought back dignity to the Mass. I for one cannot help but think that we Orthodox, with our icon-screens and the men that stand reverently behind them, must have played a part in this enlightenment, especially in regards to the almost universal debasement of the Catholic liturgy following in the footsteps of Paul VI’s horrendous Novus Ordo Mass.”
Unfortunately, in only 4 days as Pope, Pope Francis has managed to send a lot of signals that he intends to roll back much of Pope Benedict’s modest liturgical restorations. If you will read Catholic websites and fora, Catholic traditionalists are in a panic over his numerous breaks with tradition over the last 4 days, from rejecting the traditional papal dress for formal occasions (and telling the cardinals to do the same with their red choral dress), to refusing to celebrate Mass “facing East” in the Sistine chapel, to adopting a distinctly 70’s aesthetic in his first Masses (including saying in Italian the prayers that Benedict XVI usually said in Latin). What will happen tomorrow at his inauguration should say a lot about the liturgical direction of his Papacy.
These might seem small matters in themselves but in the context of Catholicism’s massive liturgical debates these actions have enormous implications. It also raises the question of how easy it is for any reigning Pope to change direction on matters as important as the sacred liturgy, with very little resistance from the Catholic rank and file.
I suppose for those trying to pump up the image of the OCA getting invited to Rome for the installation of Pope Francis I is good PR. But the bad news is that Rome understands quite well how insignificant the OCA is.
Here is the list of Christian Delegations going to Rome. Do note where the OCA is listed.
One tiny little tadpole in a big ocean.
In a list that includes Orthodox churches and Christian organizations as discrete categories, it is not surprising that the OCA is listed as an “Other”.
That is curious, isn’t it Helga?
I’ve emailed the Vatican News Service for the list of Christian Delegations to Pope Benedict’s inauguration mass back in 2005. I’ll let you know if I receive the list–just for the sake of comparison–but I’ll wager they’re a bit busy right now…
And did anyone else notice that +Tikhon was referred to with the honorific “His Eminence” not “His Beatitude.”
The Vatican knows who to call for the skinny on the OCA, and it ain’t Moscow or Syosset.
Another slap in the kisser to the OCA. They just can’t get out of their own way, but the Met. and Tosi sure looked like happy tourists in Rome!
Look, I’m a live and let live kinda guy, always have been, always will be. The homosexual juggernaut however is unstoppable and it will lead to the persecution of the Church. Passively at first, then aggressively. That’s all.
True, until about 1965 gays were all in the closet. Granted, people have friends that are gay and they should be able to live without being jailed or in the Byzantine world castrated but George’s is right that Religion whether its Roman Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant has not been able to overcome the homosexual movement.
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Because we have all succumbed to the egalitarian/relativist view of morality and eschew virtue for pleasure.
I hope Pope Francis is not a Kumbaya Christian. What St. Francis was able to do in dialog with the Muslim he was able to do beccause he stood firmly on the knowledge of Christ, not the egalitarian nonesense that ecumenists push.