It’s things like this which leads one to drink. And it’s still morning.
I mean, really? Leaving aside the tremendous theological issues with bestowing such an award on Gov Cuomo of New York, the political optics are insane. They’re positively fawning over him! Why? What is it that prompts Greek leaders to grovel so obsequiously at the drop of a hat? (I thought that I’d expunged that memory of the Archbishop comparing Obama to Alexander the Great.) All those centuries of supping at the Sultan’s table perhaps?
Just look at the face of Archbishop Demetrios. He is positively enraptured at being in this odious man’s presence. Is this what a Christian witness is? Did John the Baptist look that way in the presence of Herod Antipas? The Prophet Elijah when he dressed down King Ahab? Is it no wonder that American Orthodoxy isn’t taken seriously in America?
How low we have fallen.
Cuomo isn’t even that gifted of a politician. He’s just the last man standing in a state in which there is no effective Republican Party –that’s all. He is a man who screamed at the top of his lungs for gun control on one occasion and then on another said pro-life people have no place in his state. Can you believe the governor of a Red state saying that pro-abortionists have no place in his state? (My guess is that he’s a cardinal in Hillary’s Church of No Salvation.)
Doesn’t anybody at 79th Street have any political smarts? Or are they that insular? I’m wondering if they even know that there’s an entire country on the other side of the Hudson River.
Lord have mercy.
My, my! How do you like that? The canon lawyers of the Catholic Church have stated that the highly unpopular governor Cuomo must not receive Holy Communion – and here we see Archbishop Demetrios acting like a fawning sycophant. He’s as bad as Mrs. Fitzgerald’s son.
totally uncalled for
not on the topic and doesn’t meet the moderators new rules applied evenly
Totally cowardly to go by the name “anonymous.” Sign your real name.
The real coward is the man who would even speak about a bishop’s mother.
Enjoy the pain of others and return to your pillar of salt.
Anonymous,
I’m not interested in the opinions of a coward who won’t sign his real name. To be honest with you, I think you are extremely stupid and, of course, cowardly. The Bishop referred to himself as Mrs. Fitzgerald’s son or didn’t you read that? Obviously, you lack reading comprehension skills. What a stupid comment: “return to your pillar of salt.” From my interactions with him on this page, the Bishop has been tried and weighed in the balances and found wanting. If you or the Bishop seek respect, act respectfully. Until such a time. you are just a cowardly keyboard warrior too cowardly to sign his own name. You shouldn’t even be allowed to post, my lily livered friend.
You’d tremble saying that to my face, so in truth my anonymity gives you a pseudo-serene pleasure. And your true colors shine brightly. You have been led astray from Christ by my anonymity.
It is shameful.
I have forgiven you for name calling nastiness before.
Playground 101 Peter-you talk about someone’s mama and you get a black eye.
If it is bait, do you take it so easy?
Aw shucks, PYOTRRR MILLMAN! When did Mrs. Fitzgerald’s son ever fawn on anyone? You should have saved the appellation for a more apt situation, rather than jerking it out at the first opportunity!
Your Grace, I’m not Russian; I’m Greek. My mother’s parents both came from Greece. After reading some of your unkind comments about Greeks, I’m reminded of the very true statement, ” There are two kinds of people in the world; Greeks and those who wish they were Greek” Clearly, you fall into the latter group. Oh, well.
P,Millman, it seems you only want to insult? First this: ” Archbishop Demetrios acting like a fawning sycophant. He’s as bad as Mrs. Fitzgerald’s son.”
Then this: ” There are two kinds of people in the world; Greeks and those who wish they were Greek” Clearly, you fall into the latter group.”
Or is it trawling, rather than insulting per se?
1. While I am definitely a defective person, It is certain I’ve never fawned on anyone.
2. While I dated two different Greek-American girls, among others, when I was a student at Wayne State, and admire Thucydides, Seferis and Cavafy, I’ve never ever wanted to be a Greek! What an awful idea! Besides, as Peter A. Papoutsis knows, Greeks are the people who couldn’t get their mouths around “shibboleth,” not even in their Greek version of the O.T. Scriptures! But Persians/Iranians—now you’re talking!
Oh man he brought out the Greek girlfriend again.
Also, “THEIR” Greek version of the O.T. Scriptures! I thought it was the Orthodox Church’s scriptures, but there is the good bishop denouncing the canonical scriptures of the Church again. His Anti-Greek bigotry is staggering.
At this point “shibboleth” is like a dog whistle for the good bishop.
Peter
Peter
That’s the spirit Peter!
Peter
Petr Papoutsis has a principle! It goes like this: ANY INSULT OF BISHOP TIKHON IS GRATEFULLY ACCEPTED! I would simply improve that by adding “by Bishop Tikhon himself!”
You are insulted? I don’t understand you’re the one who is the bI shop who has decided to blog openly on the internet, you’re the one that has denounced the canonical scriptures of the Orthodox Church, you’re the one that had constantly broken every Orthodox teaching that has ever been produced in the Orthodox Church because of your support of Progressivism, you’re the one that loves Islam, and you’re the one that actually covered up allegedly a major pedophile scandal in your diocese. And somehow you’re insulted?
I love the fact that you exclusively use the King James version with the Apocrypha as your Bible, while denouncing the Septuagint, and yet you are as liberal and as Progressive as President Obama and the DNC. And yet I who uses the revised standard version with the expanded Apocrypha, corrected to the LXX, and am traditional, conservative and hold all of the canonical teachings and the canonical scriptures of the Orthodox Church. Interesting.
If anyone should be insulted it should be all of us who have had to endure all of the weird kookie and extreme views that you have put forward over the years and yet you still want to be accepted as a canonical Orthodox Bishop.
Bishop Lazar is also a so-called canonical Orthodox Bishop but all of his kookie and extreme views are not Orthodox are not traditional and are not in keeping with any canonical teachings of the Orthodox Church.
So if you’re saying that you are in the same camp as Bishop Lazar and that somehow you remain Orthodox and canonical with all of your extreme Progressive liberal and kooky views okay that’s fine. However please do not think that I and many others on this blog will accept that because you are a bishop because I do not.
I should also point out that I don’t think I ever called you any obscene or vile name and yet you have personally insulted me by mangling my last name, by specifically insulting and belittling Greek people and Greek culture and when people rightfully have taking you to task for your bigotry, your many the errors and omissions, and islam loving views you’ve put forward now and in the past especially with the pedophile Scandal that broke out in your diocese and you allegedly covered up you have the audacity to say that you are insulted. That you are somehow the victim. I would remind you my good Bishop that you have chosen all these years to be on the internet to spew your wierd and vile views that have almost next to nothing to do with traditional canonical Orthodox belief or our canonical scriptures. Now that I and before me many others have called you out on it you immediately say that you should be respected because of your office and that you are now somehow insulted. My good Bishop I suggest you give it a rest. if you don’t like being challenged then please leave.
But like I said before and I will say again as long as you decide to be on the internet I will keep you honest by trying to keep your feet to the fire. If you accept those terms then continue to blog. If you do not accept those terms if you do not like those terms then I suggest you leave. It’s a simple as that. It has been far too long with the laity in this country keeping silent for the so-called good of the church which because of our Silence has in many ways ruined the Orthodox Church in this country because we didn’t take a Bishop to task because we were supposed to respect them because they were the bishops while all along they were supporting and were condoning and in many instances voting for Liberal Progressive programs and ideas that went exactly against the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Please know that those days at least for me are over and I will continue to challenge you and to keep your feet to the fire no matter what that’s not me insulting you that’s me challenging you and because your feelings are getting hurt in the process you think that I’m insulting you. My good Bishop I suggest you think again. Because I didn’t call you any names, unlike you towards me, I haven’t insulted you with insulting words or phrases or anything like that but I have challenged you, and have been sarcastic towards you yes I will admit that but I never called you any names and I never will. However I will continue to challenge you and if you don’t like that then you can stop blogging, you can stop texting and you can stay put and pray and read your Bible and go to Liturgy and leave it at that. However if you don’t care about being challenged and like it then please continue to blog and I will continue to challenge you and they keep your feet to the fire for as long as you are on the Blog and on the internet typing away.
God bless and enjoy the weekend and I’ll see you on the internet.
Peter A. Papoutsis (try to get it right this time)
Peter, ANY INSULT OF BISHOP TIKHON IS GRATEFULLY ACCEPTED BY ME, BISHOP TIKHON.
Please, don’t consider name-calling, such as that with which you indulge yourself, as being insulting necessarily. You refer to keeping my feet to the fire: how, exactly? Shouldn’t I feel something if you’re doing that? What are you challenging me about, and when have you EVER hurt my feelings?
Please let me know, for I love challenges! Do you have any, Peter? I’d like to remind you that I revere the Septuagint and like Greek and Greeks. You said, I think, that you know the Septuagint. I wish you’d let me know how the highly revered Septuagint deals with or renders the Hebrew word SHIBBOLETH! I’ve asked you this several times, but you seem to want to talk at ME, rather than answer a question about the revered Septuagint! Go figure. You referred to a person called “Bishop Lazar.” Do you recognize him as an Orthodox bishop? Robert Haler-Buehler-Puhalo? I’ve never ever concurred with the decision of the OCA’s Holy Synod receiving him as a bishop; however, I’ve never considered their mistake to be heretical, so I remained in communion with that Synod anyhow, as I promised to do after presenting the case against his reception, which originally took place opportunistically at a meeting from which I was absent due to illness.
You wrote of me: “you’re the one who is the bI shop who has decided to blog openly on the internet.” I AM: I have always considered it a DUTY to participate in this and any other public forum! When I began to do so, decades ago, computers and the Internet were not understood at all, but were regarded with fear and suspicion by many, if not all, of my brother hierarchs!
You also mysteriously and non-specifically made this strange charge against me: “you’re the one that actually covered up allegedly a major pedophile scandal in your diocese.” “Actually covered up?” How did you uncover such? I deny that, by the way, whatever it was! I can’t even imagine how one covers up a SCANDAL!
I don’t love Islam, but, like St John of Damascus who was, as was his father before him, Vizier to the Umayyad Caliph of Baghdad, I consider its teachings about God to be heretical! I consider, though, the attitude of many Christians toward Muslims to be WORSE than the Jewish attitude toward Samaritans!
I complained of the insulting reference to His Eminence Archbishop Demetrios as a “fawning sycophant!” [“Archbishop Demetrios acting like a fawning sycophant. He’s as bad as Mrs. Fitzgerald’s son.”] I didn’t claim to be insulted myself? Do you, perhaps, have a reading disorder? If so, don’t be ashamed: I and many others, I’m sure, would want to pray that you be healed. (This, for example, is not even a sentence: “And yet I who uses the revised standard version with the expanded Apocrypha, corrected to the LXX, and am traditional, conservative and hold all of the canonical teachings and the canonical scriptures of the Orthodox Church.”}
I’m an admirer of Senator Bernie Sanders. I find it distressing that Mrs Clinton ended up as the alternative to that boastful wiseacre, Trump, rather than he, but, hey, anybody but Trump, right? Don’t throw away any of your hard-earned money betting on a Trump win—that would be AWFUL stewardship! FDR, JFK, Carter, Obama–our greatest modern presidents. Of the Clintons, neither measures up to those standard-bearers!
Finally, you wrote the following which I consider hurtful: “yet you still want to be accepted as a canonical Orthodox Bishop.” Where did you get such an idea? I’m a retired Bishop and retired USAF Officer I was commissioned the same month in 1960, at age 28, as I was received into the Orthodox Church. I’m not pursuing acceptance as anything but a human being, thankful to God Almighty, the AllHoly Trinity, for all my years from November 1932! You just worry too much, Peter A. Papoutsis!
you are right, Your Grace, Pete worries too much and needs to grow up.
Thank you for your comments, well-stated. Best wishes to you.
Thank you for your response and yes you are correct I do worry too much. I worry for my kids, my family and my church. Have you? Did you and your merry band of Bishops ever worry about us? Have the Bishops and Metropolitans of the GOAA and/or my local metropolis ever worry about us?
My Bishop, Bishop Demetrios of Mokkisos was directly involved in the Fr. Dokos scandal and yet he has stayed my Bishop to the utter shame and scandal of the Greek Orthodox faithful here in the Midwest, and specifically here in Chicago. He doesn’t care or worry. How about Metropolitan Tikhon sitting with the GOAA Metropolitans and Archbishop while they and the Archons were giving a human rights award to Gov. Cuomo? You RAIL against Russia’s abortion rate and even the March for Life, that the OCA is very prominent in, and yet there is YOUR Metropolitan with MY clergy and Archons giving an award to an avoid Abortionist politician. Did Met. Tikhon say anything? Did the Bishops of the GOAA say anything? Did you say anything? NO! NOT ONE WORD!
So yes, the Bishops that we laity look to to protect the faith and proclaim the faith and to proclaim the prophetic voice of the church have FAILED! In fact, you laughed and ridiculed the whole concept of the Church’s prophetic voice when I challenged you on this the last time we spoke on the March to Life issue about a year or so ago. YOU FAILED on that as well, but when it comes to any Progressive issue coming down the pike well THEN you find your voice.
It is precisely because we, the laity, have not challenged our bishops, bowed our heads and kept our mouths shut out of respect and the “Good of the Church” that all the bad and immoral things in the church have happened. Well, I’m done. I don’t want the status quo. Maybe you do, but I don’t. How much more do we have to take? Orthodox priests abandoning their priesthood and going and marrying their male lover, Clergy in the Church attempting to change the “never-changing Gospel,” robber councils in Crete, Ecumenism run amok, and now Archons with a FULL array of GOAA clergy front and center, WITH THE OCA METROPOLITAN ON STAGE WITH THEM, giving a human rights award to Uber Abortionist and SSM advocate Gov. Cuomo. So like I said I’m done.
Do you actually think that if you and the other Bishops actually did your jobs instead of going along to get along with the world I and others would be saying these things? This is your job not mine and you and your fellow clergy have failed! Not all, but a lot of them have failed!
Finally, I told you before and I will tell you again. I don’t care about your stupid Shibboleth. You know why because it’s playing into your stupid game of meaninglessness. The Orthodox Church has traditionally and customary used the Septuagint. The church has spoken through it’s use in the Liturgy that the Septuagint is it. If you don’t like it take it up with your buddies the Church hierarchy not me.
You think I don’t know about your so-called “Ear of Corn” issue. How in Greek it does not say Shibboleth but Στάχυς. So what! The ancient Hellenistic Jews used this version well before we did and they knew exactly what was going on and what was being said. Guess what our faith is not based on this, but on the trail the Septuagint blazed for the Greek NT and how the LXX was used in the ancient Church and by the Church Fathers. That’s what I care about, as well as what I detailed about.
What did you get worked up about? SHIBBOLETH! WOW! Simply Wow! Now you and the rest of us know what I worry and should worry when the thing that gets Bishop Tikhon worked up is not Abortion, SSM or the growing apostasy in the Church, but the word SHIBBOLETH. Unbelievable.
Peter
PS. I see in your list above you failed to mention the greatest modern President – RONALD REAGAN! Thank you my good bishop. Case closed.
Peter, I do agree that for me, also, it creates a bit of cognitive dissonance that someone as traditional on matters of liturgics, etc. would be as liberal politically as Bp. Tikhon.
I want to point out one thing, however, that the so-called “apocryphal” books in the KJV that Bp. Tikhon and I use are translated directly from the Greek Septuagint, just as they are in other translations. I of course suspect that the Greek text used by the KJV translators is closer to the Byzantine ecclesiastical text in these “apocryphal” books of the OT than is the Greek text used in the RSV and other modern translations — just as it is in the NT.
Yes, I agree with you because Patriarch of Constantinople Cyril Lukaris gave Codex Alexandrinus, I believe, to King James I way before the KJV was translated. I do believe it was this LXX codex the KJV translators had. Further, the Greek New Testament text they used I’d virtually identical to the text that was used by Blessed Theophylact with a translation issue at Mark 7:4(?) Resolved by referencing Blessed Theophylact.
However, the RSV is still, for me, maybe not for you, still much better than the King James Version. Updated English translation, full Orthodox LXX canon, and better, for me, maybe not for you, in being corrected according to the Septuagint.
However, having said this, and still believing that the RSV is the best pound for pound English translation of the Bible out there, I actually have and use a copy of the NEW CAMBRIDGE PARAGRAPH BIBLE KING JAMES VERSION WITH THE APOCRYPHA. If you go to Amazon I actually have a very positive review of the NCPB KJV on their website. So in affect I use both, with my preference being the RSV w/expanded Apocrypha. Both with both I correct them according to the LXX.
Further, one thing I have NOT been clear about, and this is my fault. I do NOT believe the Septuagint is inspired. I actually believe what Fr John Whiteford says which is the Septuagint preserves an older version of the Hebrew Bible than what is present in the modern Masoretic Hebrew text.
So I support the Septuagint because it helps us see the much older Hebrew Text that the LXX was based on and it is THIS older Hebrew text that is inspired that the Septuagint preserves, and which the Dead Sea Scrolls also tells uses existed. Once we have this Hebrew text it is this text that we not only should but must follow as this is the text that the Masoretic scribes never touched and never altered or diluted its Messianic passages.
IMHO the two OT books that suffer the most from this biased recession are the Psalms and Proverbs. The Psalms we have in very good Septuagint-English translations, but none for Proverbs so we should look at this book a little closer.
Finally being that this is the case that no translation is inspired, this also goes for the LXX, only the original languages are inspired we must use the Septuagint to get to the original text version of the Hebrew. This is also why Bishop Tikhon’s Shibboleth issue was a non-issue for me because if our mission is, and I do believe it is, to get to the original text of the Hebrew OT I am almost sure Judge’s 12:6 won’t be altered between the original Hebrew text and the Masoretic Hebrew text we have today or in the Hebrew text used by the KJV which was the Second Great Rabbinic Bible, which I have a copy of and study. Thus, his issue for me was meaningless.
So use both the KJV w/Apocrypha AND the RSV w/Apocrypha. In English-Speaking Orthodox both English versions are used. ROCOR and Antioch used the KJV, and the OCA, for the most part uses the RSV, but also use the KJV and the GOAA uses primarily the RSV, but also the KJV. Metropolitan Isaiah (GOAA) and all of the Elder Ephraim Monasteries use the KJV, so these two English Bibles are staples in English-Speaking Orthodox along with the OSB, which, IMHO, needs major revision as I believe I stated before.
Be well Edward, and God bless. As long as we are reading our Bibles with the mind of the Church and within the Church I think we are both good.
Peter
Peter A. Papoutsis wrote, “As long as we are reading our Bibles with the mind of the Church and within the Church I think we are both good.” If there’re any questions about “the mind (SIC) of the Church,” I recommend Peter A. Papoutsis check with his bishop: that’s one of the things he’s FOR.
I was highly amused and entertained to learn(FINALLY) that the Septuagint uses “stakhys” to render the Hebrew word translated by the KJV committee as “shibboleth!”
I am not qualified to judge Peter A. Papoutsis’s expertise in Greek, but I recognize that Greeks (and Russians) are sometimes not as expert in ENGLISH as are native speakers of English; hence, they may not recognize which of various alternatives English translations BEST translates a Greek (or Russian) text! Clive James, the noted Australian literary critic, writes, “The King James Bible is a prose masterpiece compiled at a time when even a committee could write English…T.S. Eliot said that the Revised Standard Version was the work of men who did not realize they were atheists. The New English Bible was worse than that: Dwight Macdonald…had to give up looking for traces of majesty and start looking for traces of literacy.”
Finally, The Holy Gospels, the Acts, and the Apostolic writings of the New Testament are the Scriptural texts on which all salvific truths are founded, not the Hebrew or LXX Scriptures.
I would like to thank Peter A. Papoutsis for his reference to Cyril Lukaris, “the Calvinist Patriarch,” and his donation of the LXX codex. I was unaware of that gift.
T.S. Eliot said that the Revised Standard Version was the work of men who did not realize they were atheists.
One of my favorite quotations, Vladyka!
Good for you my good Bishop. Now carry on doing…?
You may want to check these out:
James the VI and I and the Reunion of Christendom
Also, Acquisition of the Codex Alexandrinus by England Matthew Spinka
The Journal of Religion
Vol. 16, No. 1 (Jan., 1936), pp. 10-29
Published by: The University of Chicago Press
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1196886
Page Count: 20
Really? Check this out:
The Myth of the “Calvinist Patriarch”
Wait I love this one:
RESPONSE:
III. THE GREEK LANGUAGE
A. The common language of the Roman Empire was not Latin but Koine (common) Greek, which was the language of the people. This provided the early Christian missionaries with an open door to preach in the common language of the people of the Empire. Also the Greek New Testament was written in Koine Greek. This could only be the working of a Divine Mind.
B. The Greek language had its beginnings in 1500-900 B.C., which is often called the formative period. Greece, at this time, was divided into three states, and each of the states had its own dialect. Sparta spoke Doric, Athens spoke Ionic, and Thebes spoke Aeolic (backwoods Greek). These cities fought and Athens dominated, therefore Ionic became the general language of the people.
C. From 900-322 B.C. the Greek language entered a new phase called Classical Greek. This is sometimes called Attic Greek, and it was the ruling dialect. Attic Greek, being a dialect of Ionic, was the language of Plato, Aristotle, and Socrates, and it is one of the great literary languages, for through it the deepest and most complex thoughts can be expressed. In time, however, the language began to break down — especially as Greek began to be spoken broadly as a second language.
D. Philip of Macedon, the father of Alexander the Great, was able to unite all the states of Greece. After his death his son Alexander the Great, a military genius, was able to take the Greeks to great victories and to spread the Greek culture. Alexander’s empire lasted from 334-323 B.C. In order for Alexander to unite all the dialects of Greece, there had to be a common language. Thus, the Koine (common) Greek was developed. The Koine period covers 322 B.C. to A.D. 529. Alexander was a conqueror and a statesman, and construction, not destruction, marked his conquests. He spread the Greek language and Greek culture in Asia Minor, Syria, Egypt, Persia and Western India. He founded many Greek cities in these foreign lands for the preservation of Greek culture and language. Alexander accomplished all this before his death at the age of 33.
E. God providentially guided Greek affairs to bring the Greek language into full bloom. Greece was conquered by Rome, but Rome stole, copied, and borrowed much of the Greek culture, including the Koine Greek which was spoken in much of the world. Some have said that Greek civilization conquered Rome. Thus, Koine Greek became the commercial language of the Roman Empire. The Greek language is considered by some to have been the best medium ever known for expressing theological and philosophical ideas. (Emphasis added).
F. The Greek language became the world language — one that enabled the early Christians to communicate with all their hearers in the Roman world. When the Christians quoted the Old Testament to the Jews and Gentiles, it was from the Septuagint, a Greek version of the Old Testament compiled and translated more than two hundred years before Christ. (Emphasis added).
The full article can be found here: Preparation of the World for Christianity
It seems God used the LXX to set up, support and promulgate the Greek New Testament because the Holy Gospels, the Acts, and the Apostolic writings of the Greek New Testament are the Scriptural texts on which all salvific truths are founded. Thanks for agreeing with me my good bishop. carry on.
Peter
That is such an old and tired line about the RSV. I prefer the endorsement of the late Fr. Thomas Hopko and Fr. Stanley Harakis that encourages the use of the best English Bible still on the market and the best still for English -Speaking Orthodox Christian and that’s the RSV with the Expanded Apocrypha. If you care to listen to Fr. Hopko on this matter his podcasts are on Ancient Faith Radio or his talk at St. Elias Church where he calls all other translations, even the King James as pushing an agenda.
You can also listen to Professor Jeanie Constantelou’s talk at St. Barnabas Church where she points our the inaccurate renderings of the KJB.
So give it a rest my Good Bishop and just stick with correcting your outdated and obscure Bible with the LXX.
Ps “Shibboleth” my good bishop.
Peter
Peter, you make a good point about the Septuagint. A common mistake that is made when talking about these things is to talk about “oldest manuscripts.”
A better question, if one is concerned about age, is to ask is “what is the oldest reading?” This is most notable in the NT, where the oldest manuscripts are not, by the Church’s lights, necessarily the oldest and most acccurate readings. The manuscripts carrying the Byzantine text of the NT would have been in continual use and would get worn out and replaced, whereas manuscripts that were unused would tend to survive.
The oldest reading in the Old Testament might be in a translation like the LXX, just as the oldest reading in the NT could in theory be in an old Latin translation that was translated from an older Greek manuscript that no longer exists — in theory, I again add.
The even more important question for us — and on this we agree — is what text has the Church received and passed down. It is far better to rely on a Slavonic text of the New Testament that has been part of a living tradition of prayer than to rely on an “older” Greek manuscript that has not been passed down within the Church as an ecclesiastical text.
Protestants historically have had a very strong view of God inspiring the writing of Scripture. But that is only part of the story — it makes no sense to believe that the Holy Spirit would inspire the writing of Scripture, but then not be active in preserving its text. So in that sense, while I would be certainly most interested in any Hebrew manuscripts that might be discovered that are older and that reflect the readings found in the Septuagint, I don’t think that I would necessarily endorse making those Hebrew texts more authoritative than the LXX Greek — although they could shed light on the LXX.
I agree with you that one has to be very careful about calling the LXX an inspired translation — there are what seem to be obvious errors in translation in places where the readings of the Masoretic text does appear to be otherwise the same as what the LXX was being translated from. There are stories in our tradition that indicate that it was indeed a God-assisted and blessed translation (as in the stories about St. Symeon the God-bearer), but some versions of that story are a bit on the fantastical side.
BUT… the LXX is authoritative not because it is an inspired translation. It is authoritative because it is the version that was preserved by the Holy Spirit within the Orthodox Church. I would hasten to add that we in the Orthodox Church, even though we have a very high view of Scripture and its authority, have never held to the idea within Protestantism of “original autographs” that are the “real Scripture” that are infallible down to the very letter. That idea is a pernicious one, because it basically means that “real Scripture” is ultimately unknowable in its fullness — that we can only know it through error-ridden copies and through attempts to reconstruct the original.
By the same token, neither do we believe that the ecclesiastical texts that we have today are somehow some kind of magical text, down to the letter. If we in the Orthodox Church believed that sort of thing, the preservation of these texts to the letter would have been the subject of obsessive copying, correcting, and debates over which manuscripts were right. And we really don’t see that historically in the Church.
Scripture is life-giving in the form that the Church preserves it. It is knowable. And that includes the fact that there are minor textual variants that are all within the tradition that the Church has preserved. This includes the Old Testament — is there any doubt that the 7th century Codex Amiatinus of the Vulgate is an authoritative text of the ancient and undivided Orthodox Catholic Church? The Hebrew text behind the Vulgate differs both from the current Masoretic text and the LXX in some places. Does this mean that where the LXX and Vulgate disagree, that the Vulgate is always wrong? I don’t think this is particularly logical — it is possible that both readings are acceptable, or that perhaps the Vulgate has a better reading in some cases. I doubt, however, that any differences between the Byzantine Greek texts and the Vulgate as it existed before the Schism are likely to be of any particular doctrinal import — it was the same Holy Spirit in both areas of the Church.
Yes I agree and should have been more clear on that. However, if the underlying Hebrew text of the Old Testament is ever discovered it would be up to the Church to decide what use, if any, it would have for it.
Fr. Hopko actually made a good point once that maybe God made these differences to emphasize different points at different times to His people. I don’t know, but may be. Who knows.
Thanks Edward. Take care.
Peter
Yes, “Koine” Greek is, like most “koine” languages, a pidgin. The “common” or pidgin English used, among other places, in Pacific island communities, is the same sort of lingo, like the Greek used by uneducated foreigners in the far reaches of the old Roman Empire but understood almost everywhere. Charles Williams in his book,THE DESCENT OF THE DOVE; A History of the Holy Spirit in the Church, called it “atrocious” Greek. But it was a wonderful vehicle to transmit the Gospel! Like pidgin English, it was well suited for missionary work, while purist or Attic or learned Greek would probably not have done so well as koine-pidgin!
The Good Bishop/Fritz says:
November 4, 2016 at 1:28 am
Yes, “Koine” Greek is, like most “koine” languages, a pidgin. The “common” or pidgin English used, among other places, in Pacific island communities, is the same sort of lingo, like the Greek used by uneducated foreigners in the far reaches of the old Roman Empire but understood almost everywhere. Charles Williams in his book,THE DESCENT OF THE DOVE; A History of the Holy Spirit in the Church, called it “atrocious” Greek. But it was a wonderful vehicle to transmit the Gospel! Like pidgin English, it was well suited for missionary work, while purist or Attic or learned Greek would probably not have done so well as koine-pidgin!
___________
RESPONSE: Well I suggest you take that up with God because He liked it to transmit His Holy Gospel and all other deep and theological thoughts in His Church. I suggest you take it up with Him not me my good bishop.
Peter
What is it, presumed access to power, money and influence; being under sway to the world; don’t under estimate the effect of the Ottoman Yoke and the corruption it bred. Plain stupidity. Unwillingness to either understand or apply the actual teachings of the Church. The list is long.
George, calm down and slow down. Try to write better than a new immigrant: “It’s things like this which leads one to drink. ”
And please name ONE “tremendous (sic) THEOLOGICAL Issue” “with bestowing such an award on Gov Cuomo of New York, ” T-H-E-O-L- O-G-I-C-A-L”
George is 100% correct … should not insult him
OSSETIAN! (Or Ossete, whatever) How about YOU tell us what that “tremendous THEOLOGICAL issue” is?
I agree that it was a gratuitous insult that was in bad taste, but Bp. Tikhon is indeed correct if he means that there are at least 3 grammatical or syntactical errors in that sentence. I wasn’t going to say anything until someone defended it as “100% correct.” It isn’t. Not even close.
I agree with Vladyka in this sense: it is reasonable to hold a blog’s articles to a higher standard of writing than its comments.
Elder Sophrony taught that our theological, moral and ascetic Tradition are interrelated in Orthodoxy. By overturning one, you overturn the others, hence there is definitely some bad theology at play here. Why would authentic “successors of the Apostles” endorse a man that supports the sacrifice of innocents made in the image of God? This is utterly shameful. This act is right up there with the so-called “non-sectarian room” set aside within the walls of the St. Nicholas National Shrine.
“Maximus” Elder Sophrony never taught what you imply: that the theological, moral, and ascetic Traditions are identical; rather, he taught they are only interrelated. One does not proclaim in such facile, shallow manner that every moral transgression overturns a theological principle.
Of course, any “non-sectarian room” is an anti Orthodox fantasy! But it wasn’t Cuomo’s idea! Think whose it was!
Bishop Tikhon,
Iconoclasm, materialism, barbarism (which is considered a heresy in the early Church). False dogmas lead to false deeds; culture is the daughter of cultus, and so on.
The non-sectarian, anti-Orthodox fantasy suite is likely the idea of EP/GOARCH/Archon coalition. If not, they gave it a green light and they’re advocating for it’s usefulness and benefit in writing. Lord have mercy.
Here is the future and it is scary. Notice the spin they give in the article to the mother of two who had to medically abort her third child so she could take care of her other two. So sweet…NOT!
___________________
American women are ending pregnancies with medication almost as often as with surgery, marking a turning point for abortion in the United States, data reviewed by Reuters shows.
The watershed comes amid an overall decline in abortion, a choice that remains politically charged in the United States, sparking a fiery exchange in the final debate between presidential nominees Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump.
When the two medications used to induce abortion won U.S. approval 16 years ago, the method was expected to quickly overtake the surgical option, as it has in much of Europe. But U.S. abortion opponents persuaded lawmakers in many states to put restrictions on their use.
Although many limitations remain, innovative dispensing efforts in some states, restricted access to surgical abortions in others and greater awareness boosted medication abortions to 43 percent of pregnancy terminations at Planned Parenthood clinics, the nation’s single largest provider, in 2014, up from 35 percent in 2010, according to previously unreported figures from the nonprofit.
The national rate is likely even higher now because of new federal prescribing guidelines that took effect in March. In three states most impacted by that change – Ohio, Texas and North Dakota – demand for medication abortions tripled in the last several months to as much as 30 percent of all procedures in some clinics, according to data gathered by Reuters from clinics, state health departments and Planned Parenthood affiliates.
Among states with few or no restrictions, medication abortions comprise a greater share, up to 55 percent in Michigan and 64 percent in Iowa.
Denise Hill, an Ohio mother who works full time and is pursuing a college degree, is part of the shift.
Hill, 26, became extremely ill with her third pregnancy, sidelined by low blood pressure that made it challenging to care for her son and daughter. In July, eight weeks in, she said she made the difficult decision to have a medication abortion. She called the option that was not available in her state four months earlier “a blessing.”
The new prescribing guidelines were sought by privately-held Danco Laboratories, the sole maker of the pills for the U.S. market. Spokeswoman Abby Long said sales have since surged to the extent that medication abortion now is “a second option and fairly equal” to the surgical procedure.
“We have been growing steadily year over year, and definitely the growth is larger this year,” Long said.
Women who ask for the medication prefer it because they can end a pregnancy at home, with a partner, in a manner more like a miscarriage, said Tammi Kromenaker, director of the Red River Women’s Clinic in Fargo, North Dakota.
GAME CHANGER
Medication abortion involves two drugs, taken over a day or two. The first, mifepristone, blocks the pregnancy sustaining hormone progesterone. The second, misoprostol, induces uterine contractions. Studies have shown medical abortions are effective up to 95 percent of the time.
Approved in France in 1988, the abortion pill was supposed to be a game changer, a convenient and private way to end pregnancy. In Western Europe, medication abortion is more common, accounting for 91 percent of pregnancy terminations in Finland, the highest rate, followed by Scotland at 80 percent, according to the Guttmacher Institute, a nonprofit research organization that supports abortion rights.
In the United States, proponents had hoped the medication would allow women to avoid the clinics that had long been targets of protests and sometimes violence.
But Planned Parenthood and other clinics remain key venues for the medication option. Of the more than 2.75 million U.S. women who have used abortion pills since they were approved in 2000, at least 1 million got them at Planned Parenthood.
Many private physicians have avoided prescribing the pills, in part out of concern that it would expose their practices to the type of protests clinics experienced, say doctors, abortion providers and healthcare organizations.
At the same time, the overall U.S. abortion rate has dropped to a low of 16.9 terminations per 1,000 women aged 15-44 in 2011, down from 19.4 per 1,000 in 2008, according to federal data. The decline has been driven in part by wider use of birth control, including long lasting IUDs.
In March, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration changed its prescribing guidelines for medication abortion. The agency now allows the pills to be prescribed as far as 10 weeks into pregnancy, up from seven. It cut the number of required medical visits and allowed trained professionals other than physicians, including nurse practitioners, to dispense the pills. It also changed dosing guidelines.
The changes were supported by years of prescribing data and reflect practices already common in most states where doctors are free to prescribe as they deem best.
Ohio, Texas and North Dakota took the unusual step of requiring physicians to strictly adhere to the original guidelines. Many abortion providers were reluctant to prescribe the pills under the older guidelines, which no longer reflected current medical knowledge, said Vicki Saporta, President and CEO of the National Abortion Federation.
Randall K. O’Bannon, a director at the anti-abortion National Right to Life organization, criticized the new guidelines but said his organization had no plans to fight them.
“What they did was make it more profitable,” O’Bannon said. “It will increase the pool of potential customers.”
Planned Parenthood said both types of abortion typically cost from $300 to $1,000, including tests and examinations. The group charges a sliding fee based on a patient’s ability to pay, regardless of which type of abortion they choose.
VARIED ACCESS
Despite a landmark U.S. Supreme Court ruling that abortion is a woman’s right, access varies widely by state. Some states maintain restrictions on both surgical and medication abortions; others have worked to increase access.
In rural Iowa, where clinics are few and far between, Planned Parenthood is using video conferencing, known as telemedicine, to expand access.
The way it works is, a woman is examined in her community by a trained medical professional, who checks vital signs and blood pressure and performs an ultrasound. The information is sent to an off-site doctor, who talks with the woman via video conference and authorizes the medications.
Since the telemedicine program began in Iowa in 2008, medication abortions increased to 64 percent of all pregnancy terminations, the highest U.S. rate.
In New York, Hawaii, Washington and Oregon, a private research institute, Gynuity Health Projects, works with clinics to send abortion pills by mail to pre-screened women.
“Medication abortion is definitely the next frontier,” said Gloria Totten, president of the Public Leadership Institute, a nonprofit that advises advocates.
And in Maryland and Atlanta, the nonprofit organization Carafem opened centers in the last 18 months that offer birth control and medication, but not surgical, abortions. It promotes its services with ads that read: “Abortion. Yeah, we do that.”
(Reporting By Jilian Mincer; Editing by Michele Gershberg and Lisa Girion)
Why does the Church have to bestow awards? I thought when you gave alms the right hand should not know what the left hand is doing.
Hi your Grace,
How are you doing, buddy? Unfortunately, you wrote, ” George, calm down and slow down. Try to write better than a new immigrant.” This is an anti- Greek, bigoted, racist slur on your part. You offend those of us of Greek descent with your vile prejudice and calumny. Not that I expect any better from you, but this kind of disgusting innuendo is really inappropriate for such an excellent web site. Perhaps, you would feel more comfortable writing on the Ku Klux Klan’s web site or Stormfront. Your racism and bigotry is an affront to those of us of good will. Always happy to correct you, my xenophobic, bigoted friend.
You are much too sensitive – we are all immigrants to this continent. I thought we conservatives were immune to this sort of mild banter. You don’t need a safe room, do you?
Terry Myles,
Wrong! I’m not too sensitive at all. I have zero tolerance for any and all slurs toward Greeks- of which I am one. When my mother was a young child her next door neighbor informed my mother that she was not allowed to play with her because she was Greek. In the past, there was great prejudice against Greeks, Italians, Irish and others. I find this disgusting. When it comes to defending the Greek people, I wield a fierce, terrifying sword. No need for a safe room for me. A safe room is needed for anyone foolish enough to attacks us. If it wasn’t for the Hellenes, there would be no Italian renaissance, no western civilization, et al. In my opinion, Greeks are the greatest people in world history, and you all owe a debt of gratitude toward us. As the Apostle Paul reminds us, there are Greeks and there are barbarians.
Indeed. While I don’t care for Bp. Tikhon’s provocative style on the interweb, I must say that I have never heard him complain about the horrible names he is called or the disrespect he is shown as a retired hierarch.
One could say that Bp. Tikhon provokes his opponents to wrath and therefore sort of has it coming — and since he doesn’t complain about his taking that kind of incoming fire, I don’t complain about it on his behalf, even though it tremendously offends me.
The only times Vladyka protests that I can tell is if someone is claiming that he said or did things that he clearly didn’t. And he doesn’t complain in a whiny way, but just gives it both barrels and calls people liars, straight up.
So I do think it is pretty funny to read Peter Millman whining about racism and bigotry and the like. He could stand to learn some things from Bp. Tikhon about not being thin-skinned.
Keep in mind that BT’s critique of GM wasn’t the shade of his skin or where his grandparents came from or any accent he might have — it was a correct assessment of a shoddily written sentence, albeit worded in an intentionally provocative way. (And note that George didn’t whine about being criticized, so why would someone else?)
Edward…To be unjustifiably kind to you, I don’t whine; I fight back against poseurs and losers…I hit and I hit extremely hard; it has nothing to do with whining or being respectful. The bishop’s controversial track record accords me no reason to show him any respect as a retired hierarch or anything else. Simply put, in my humble opinion, he is not a nice man. There are many Orthodox priests, Hierarchs and Metropolitan that are as crooked and corrupt as the day is long. They are completely undeserving of any respect from me at all, therefore, none is given.
When the so called” good bishop” had the temerity and gall to call me dishonest, I lost any and all respect for him. Son, I’m not interested in your stupid opinions. You know absolutely nothing at all about anything. You are just a flaccid, anonymous, cowardly keyboard warrior. An anonymous, cowardly, keyboard warrior accusing someone of whining is rich in irony…
Respect is earned not given Edward.
Peter you are correct not whinning.
Peter
Peter Millman! “This is an anti- Greek, bigoted, racist slur on your part”. WRONG! I did compare George’s writing about Cuomo to that of a new immigrant! What makes YOU (prejudicially?) think I was referring to any GREEK immigrant? Did I say so?How do you know I was not referring to a Slavic or Turkish or Korean immigrant?
Do you have some kind of ethnic chip on your shoulder like that of Mr Papoutsis? I’m glad Terry did not confirm your false (or unthinking) witness!
I repeat, just to be sure you get it: all new immigrants are not Greek!
The Good Bishop said:
George, calm down and slow down. Try to write better than a new immigrant: “It’s things like this which leads one to drink. ”
Being that George is of Greek heritage and saying he writes like a new immigrant, yeah I would call that anti-Greek bigotry. Good job Fritz you’re batting a thousand.
PS “Shibboleth” my good bishop.
Peter
Mr Peter A Papoutsis. New immigrants from ANY country except Anglophone countries often use clumsy English and fail at clear communication. I suggested George not speak like one of these, i.e., as a new immigrant. Are you now going all “bait and switch” in order to find an anti Greek bias in what I wrote? Because I criticize George’s English as resembling the stumbling efforts of a new immigrant that makes my criticism anti-Greek? Talk about your “bait and switch” (also a horrid figure of speech)!
Reprimand accepted Your Grace.
I disagree my Good Bishop.
You have to. I understand.
I take it this was the Athenagoras Human Rights Award thingee.
I wonder how bad it has to get before the Greeks en masse write off the Phanar, GOARCH and every other thing under Bartholomew as being apostate?
thingy
It may also be in “honor” of his and other New York leaders agreements on the new St. Nicholas Church, which was demolished 9/11. GOARCH might be afraid the Gov and leaders will try to re-negotiate the site/land/shrine and this is his pay-off. Might sound strange, but 79th Street has become a reality show itself and stranger things have happened.
What does it profit a man to gain the whole world bur lose his own soul?
No shrine, national or otherwise is worth our betrayal of the Gospel.
Peter A. Papoutsis
Lord have mercy indeed! Say what you want about the Evangelical church leaders, but you won’t find them party jumping back and forth like our Archbishop. He must be desperate for any exposer he can get.
We need more Bishops like Chrysostomos of Zakynthos or Archbishop Damaskinos of Athens during WW2. Men of true faith who were not scared to stand up to evil, even if it meant not only their throne, but their lives as well. They did not give up their souls to save their good lives here on earth. America’s Greek Orthodox Archbishop should take notice, and advise these politicians to a path of salvation, not damnation!
I do agree with Peter A. We should respect, advise, and pray for our spiritual leaders
Condoleeza Rice: “Enough! Donald Trump should not be President. He should withdraw.
As a Republican, I hope to support someone who has the dignity and stature to run for the highest office in the greatest democracy on earth.” It’s those last four words that just bother the dickens out of many fellow Monomakhos contributors!
Alright, though I am sure of what he was aiming at, I will cut Pat. Bartholomew and those who are dealing with his excellent adventures some slack. He did, after all sign off on this, which reaffirms the Photian and Palamite Councils as authoritative. At the end of the day, though confused, he had the sense to affirm at least that:
“3. The Orthodox Church, in her unity and catholicity, is the Church of Councils, from the Apostolic Council in Jerusalem (Acts 15.5-29) to the present day. The Church in herself is a Council, established by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit, in accord with the apostolic words: ‘It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us’ (Acts 15.28). Through the Ecumenical and Local councils, the Church has proclaimed and continues to proclaim the mystery of the Holy Trinity, revealed through the incarnation of the Son and Word of God. The Conciliar work continues uninterrupted in history through the later councils of universal authority, such as, for example, the Great Council (879-880) convened at the time of St. Photios the Great, Patriarch of Constantinople, and also the Great Councils convened at the time of St. Gregory Palamas (1341, 1351, 1368), through which the same truth of faith was confirmed, most especially as concerns the procession of the Holy Spirit and as concerns the participation of human beings in the uncreated divine energies, and furthermore through the Holy and Great Councils convened in Constantinople, in 1484 to refute the unionist Council of Florence (1438-1439), in 1638, 1642, 1672 and 1691 to refute Protestant beliefs . . .”
– from the “Encyclical” of the Cretan council
If Met. Hierotheos, et al. think they can reel Pat. Bartholomew back in without any “disturbance”, well, so be it.
It must be understood that the primary agenda of the GOA is not the proclamation and living of the Gospel but rather the proclamation and living of the Greek-American success story. Yes, lip service is given to the Gospel, but the real agenda is different. Check out the number of employees in various departments at the GOA and the funds allocated to each department.
The events in which hierarchs of the Church demonstrate sycophantic fawning before public figures is common because it demonstrates that Greek-Americans have arrived and are a significant part of the American landscape. Individuals, who seldom or ever attend liturgy, are made Archons of the church because they are prominent/successful Greek Americans not because they are faithful Orthodox Christians. Money talks in the GOA. Upholding and demonstrating the Greek-American image is primary not Jesus the Christ.
Greek-Americans, as often represented through the Church, clamor for attention and acceptance in America. Having hierarchs hobnob with political figures demonstrates success of the Greek-American.
Unfortunately johnkal is correct in his assessment of this very sad and sickening situation.
Peter
Here’s a link with an enlarged photo.
http://byztex.blogspot.com/2016/10/ny-gov-andrew-cuomo-receives-pat.html
Thanks for the link to the photo.
For months now, for some reason, I can never see the photos that George posts here and comments on. I have no idea why.
I can’t see the photos in the actual stories either. They show up on the main page only.
I was also wondering where the photo was that was being excoriated. No link, no photo; it was weird. Thank you, Gregory Manning, for providing the link.
How disgusting! A human rights award for a supporter of tens of millions of murdered babies?!?
Brought to you by the champions of the heretical robber “council.”
Anaxios!!!
I agree 100%
Peter
George,
Have you heard about the latest controversy on the West coast? Metropolitan Joseph sent a letter out to his clergy recently informing them that Bishop Demetri Khoury is going to be assisting him and visiting parishes. The letter seems to imply that the metropolitan is turning over all diocesan duties to Bp. Khoury. In fact, he even referred to himself as the locum tenens for the diocese of Los Angeles.
As a reminder for anyone who missed it, Bp. Demetri Khoury is a convicted sex offender and had his diocese taken away from him for getting drunk and fondling a woman in a casino in Traverse City, MI several years go.
It’s hard to say which is more tragic, Bp. Khoury or the fact that Met. Joseph decided to bring him out of retirement.
As an American of Greek heritage, this is why I left the GOA so long ago. I’m much more interested in growing in Christ and trying to be a faithful Orthodox Christian than I am in being inundated with propaganda about the Greek-American success story by a church. Nicholas Gage/Gatzoyiannis, his daughter Eleni, and others have written wonderful books about the Greek-American story. Let the people do that. The Church must focus on proclaiming the Gospel to the world, especially in unchurched America. The Russians don’t focus on propagandizing about the Russian-American success story. My impression has been that even the most Russian of Russian Orthodox parishes in America is still far more Christ-centered than the Greekest of the GOA parishes. Not clear why, but it’s how it is.
Will the GOA leaders ever learn to focus on proclaiming the gospel and not on secular Greek-American propaganda?
They have too. Refuse to cow tow and they don”t get the cathedral bruit on Ground Zero.
I wouldn’t have been so offended if the re-built church was more Orthodox in architecture. It’s modernist to the extreme.
The exterior of that building is simply gauche. The inside is a nightmare — it inexplicably apes post-Vatican II RC cold and sterile church interior architecture.
I agree.
Laughter is the best medicine: when it is discovered that the Same God whom is with you, is with me;May Our God Bless you with His Dunamis. amen.
Is recognizing the assistance rendered by someone outside the faith in rebuilding a church destroyed in a terrorist attack so horrible? Are we not to thank and recognize our heterodox allies? Cuomo is certainly less odoius than the prime minister of Greece, I bet he has received an award from the church at some point(I think an apostate head of state of an Orthodox country is far more problematic)
Both are bad, and neither should honored.
Peter
Not only does he support late term abortions, he believes those of us who are against abortion or same sex marriage are anti-American and have no place in New York state. This is not a man who should be granted a humanitarian award or recognition from the Orthodox when we hold to totally different values. Appreciation for his support in the rebuilding of St. Nicholas is fine, but this kind of award is completely inappropriate.
“Is recognizing the assistance rendered by someone outside the faith in rebuilding a church destroyed in a terrorist attack so horrible?”
Are you kidding? The man is a staunch advocate for the murder of babies…..60 million and counting. These voiceless and choice-less little martyrs are being slaughtered….and Mr. Cuomo is just fine with it all! In fact, he wants to find ways to make it more accessible. He is one of the most pro-death politicians in the country. He goes so far as to say that he would rather not have pro-life advocates living in the state of New York. This is evil. This is demonic. And yet he is given a human rights award because he supports the re-building of a Church?!? A human rights award! Oh, the hypocrisy!!! If I had been part of the GOAA, there are many reasons that I would have left for another jurisdiction. But this reason alone would be enough to say sayonara!
Oh the horror!
Lord have mercy!
Absolutely disgusting and shameful to honor this person who has no such respect for the unborn or anyone who holds to traditional values. https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/greek-orthodox-inexplicably-give-highest-humanitarian-award-to-andrew-cuomo
The OCA has always been the Orthodox jurisdiction with the most visibility every year at the March For Life in Washington, D.C.
Can anyone explain to me why Metropolitan Tikhon is sitting on stage as a guest of honor for this “human rights award” that is being given to the most pro-death politician in the country?
Peter P: Old and tired? I respect Fr. Hopko, but to dismiss Eliot — one of the greatest poets in the history of the English language like that? Sad!
It is laughable to claim that there was no agenda to the RSV. It WAS an agenda — bound up, printed, and published. And one of the leading proofs of its agenda is that the translators intentionally MIS-translated the second person personal pronouns throughout the book. No honest and educated translator would do that. And of course there was the agenda of intentionally and systematically undermining the received Byzantine text as corrupt. This furthered the agenda of those who wanted to push the idea that the Church doctored the Scriptures to support orthodox doctrines, especially since many of the Byzantine variants support traditional theology. It isn’t a big leap from the RSV to fevered conspiracies about the Council of Nicea promoted by Dan Brown in the Da Vinci code.
I take the word and side of Fr. Hopko, an Orthodox priest, theologian, and pastor, over that of T.S. Eliot any day. That you do not is truly sad.
You never refuted Fr. Hopko, you never refuted Prof. Jeanie Constantelou, you have refuted nothing. So unless you are prepared and capable to do so I will continue to promote and use the RSV.
As for Agendas I did not know you knew Prof. Metzger and Prof. May so well to consider them evil and wicked he’ll bent on destroying the Church. God preserve us.
Good night Edward.
Peter
That is simply unjust. I have been extremely specific in my criticisms of the RSV.
Edward,
At this point I am willing to let it go because I agree with you no everything else, especially about the Septuagint and the Byzantine Text-Type Greek New Testament. What English translations we use, as long as they are within the mind of the Church and we are guided by her teachings and views, we are both good to go.
I have criticisms about the KJV, but I know many faithful and good English-Speaking Orthodox Christians that use it, like yourself, and I have criticisms of the RSV, but I know many faithful English-Speaking Orthodox Christians who use the RSV, like myself, and their Orthodox faith is not affected by either one, but enriched by it then too each his and her own.
Many English-Speaking Orthodox have now left both of us in the dust and are using en mass then Orthodox Study Bible, like my wife, and are greatly enriched by it. This is why I recommended the KJV, RSV and OSB for English-Speaking Orthodox Christians to use no because I am some great authority, but because by in large that’s what our people have been using and been benefit by them all these years. Why stop now?
Further, you have been specific about YOUR criticisms and problems about the RSV, which I told you I agree with, BUT you have NOT addressed the criticisms of the KJV specifically raised by Fr. Hopko and Prof. Constantelou. That’s all I was saying.
In fact, between the two Prof. Constantelou’s take on reading the Bible within the mind and teaching on the Orthodox Church kind makes our whole discussion moot. That’s why I sent her link to you. Not to change your mind, but to help you see that Bible translations, although important, at the end of the day whatever problems they have can be done away with as long as they are read within the framework and mind of the Church.
In any event, I bid you peace, and I think we have beat this poor horse to death. Still love you and still praying for you as I ask you still pray for me and mine.
Take care Edward and if you ever want to talk outside of this blog contact either George or Michael and they can put you in contact with me. You definitely strike me as a good egg.
Peter
Edward, Peter A.Papoutsis trots out the old “argumentum ad vericundiam” by citing a mediocre teacher of dogma, not a historian or canonist, who was once a very good pastor of a parish in Warren, Ohio, ever-memorable Archpriest Thomas Hopko. His “rainbow books’ are valuable popularizers IF one has a wise teacher in addition to them. Ever-memorable Archbishop Dmitri, said more than once, “If only Father Tom did not objectify the Church like an outsider by saying things like “On the other hand the Orthodox Church teaches that”, rather than, “WE teach that…” Archbishop John (Shakhovskoy) of blessed memory once said something typically wise about Hopko…. Father Alexander Schmeman was about to visit the Los Angeles parish and area, and I so informed the diocesan council, of which I was already a member though a Deacon, at a meeting. Archbishop John commented, “Ah, the Father Alexander–the champagne of Orthodox theologians!” Someone added, “And I suppose Father John Meyendorff would be the fine burgundy wine?” “Yes!” said Vladyka. Then someone said, foolishly, “And what about Father Hopko?” Archbishop John smiled and said, “Ah, he is the Coca-Colah!”
Also, I find it interesting that Abp. Chrysostomos refutes an obscure Protestant on the subject of the “Calvinist patriarch.” The real person to refute is the eminent English historian (who became Orthodox toward the end of his life), Sir Steven Runciman. I feel confident that Bp. Tikhon was referring to his work on the subject, which as I recall comprised a chapter in Runciman’s book, “The Great Church in Captivity.”
That’s the whole point Edward he refuted the well worn myth the Runicman put forward, yes Edward I can read as well and read this from Runicman, but you still didn’t refute or, but simply attacked without any basis in fact.
Good night Edward.
Peter
Peter, Peter. If Chrysostomos intended to attack Runciman’s account, why didn’t he mention it? My guess is that Chrysostomos knew he couldn’t refute Runciman, who was close to the EP and also had full access to the archives of the Turkish government. So he just avoided the subject, hoping nobody would notice, and stuck to low hanging fruit.
Edward,
The history and story that surrounds Patriarch Lukaris is, even as I was reading it from Runciman, was highly suspect and suspicious to me. I do not believe Abp. Chrysostomos was specifically “attacking” Runciman, but re-examining the facts surrounding Patriarch Lukaris. I will admit I do not trust the Turkish Archives or Jesuit accounts or even English accounts as all three had their own interests in discrediting and attacking an otherwise brilliant and gifted Cleric and Theologian.
You know as well as I do that historical re-examinations and revision happen all the time, especially were the so-called victors get to write the history. If Patriarch Lukaris was truly a Calvinists then he should, and was, denounced by the Church.
All I want is re-examination and Abp Chrysostomos has done that. It forces us not to take the word of Runciman or Abp Chrysostomos, but to gather all the facts and to examine them ourselves and see what pans out and where the facts lead us.
What I was trying to say to the Good Bishop, and also to you and others, is that questions remain and that this matter is not necessarily closed on Patriarch Lukaris.
Peter
Didn’t then-Timothy Ware publish a book on that Calvinist? At any rate, what do the faculties of Holy Cross, St Vladimir, and Trinity seminaries and the Athens Theological Faculty say about Lucaris? Someone younger and energetic, like Peter A. Papoutsis, should investigate!
By the way, the Sacred Synod of Constantinople would have been loathe to take on a prelate blessed by the Sultan, especially if the Sublime Porte favored the Protestant powers! It wasn’t like the “phyletism”charade that punished the Bulgarians!