After the failure of Crete you would think Pat. Bartholomew and his synod would realize that their papalist pretensions could lead to schism.
Greek metropolitan calls on Constantinople to repent and cease communication with Ukrainian schismatics
Source: Orthodox Christian
“The Patriarchate of Constantinople’s persistence in granting autocephaly to Ukrainian schismatics has led to these sad and unfortunate results,” the Greek hierarch believes.
Kythira, Greece, September 17, 2018
His Eminence Metropolitan Seraphim of Kythira of the Greek Orthodox Church has appealed to His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, calling on him to cease his communication with Ukrainian schismatics and to thereby avoid the inevitable new schisms that Constantinople’s actions will cause, reports Romfea.
The metropolitan reminded the patriarch of the words of the holy hierarch St. John Chrysostom: “The sin of schism is not purged even by martyr’s blood,” calling on him to offer repentance for his actions.
“Now, for his own personal reasons, he is giving autocephaly to the schismatics of Ukraine and revising the sacred order and canonical Orthodox Archdiocese of Ukraine, which is recognized not only by the Russian Orthodox Church, but also by all other local Orthodox churches,” the hierarch’s document reads.
“Schismatics, as we know, are not the Church, and communion with them is forbidden by the Divine and holy canons and the Apostolic and Ecumenical Councils. Why then this persistence of the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew in recognizing schismatics as an autocephalous Church? To provoke schisms and divisions in the one universal and Apostolic Church of Christ?” Met. Seraphim writes in his statement.
He noted that he was “deeply saddened” when he heard that the Moscow Patriarchate was ceasing commemoration of the Ecumenical Patriarch and concelebration with its bishops. He also reminded the Ecumenical Patriarch that until recently, he only recognized the canonical Church under His Beatitude Metropolitan Onuphry of Kiev and All Ukraine.
The Ecumenical Patriarchate sent two exarch bishops to Kiev recently, tasked with dealing with Ukraine’s two schismatic bodies to make a new body that it then plans to grant autocephaly to. The canonical Church in Ukraine and the Russian Church have strongly objected to this canonical infraction, and the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church resolved on Friday that His Holiness Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia would suspend commemoration of Pat. Bartholomew in the Liturgy, that Russian bishops would not serve with Constantinople bishops, and that the Russian Church is pulling out of any organizations chaired or co-chaired by hierarchs of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
“The Patriarchate of Constantinople’s persistence in granting autocephaly to Ukrainian schismatics has led to these sad and unfortunate results,” the Greek hierarch believes.
“With a fervent prayer and a plea from the depths of his heart,” Met. Seraphim appeals “from the remote corners of our Greek Motherland” to Pat. Bartholomew “to stop, in order to avoid schisms and divisions.”
He also noted that many problems were provoked by 2016’s Crete Council and said that he is praying for the Church to cope with the spiritual and avoid these painful consequences for the unity of the Orthodox flock.
Below please find an article from today in The National Herald. Unfortunately, the article is locked and doesn’t appear in its entirety. I will continue to be on the lookout for the article in its entirely, and if found, I will post.
Metropolitan Emmanuel of France on Ukraine’s Autocephaly
By Theodore Kalmoukos – September 18, 2018
https://www.thenationalherald.com/213763/metropolitan-emmanuel-of-france-on-ukraines-autocephaly/
Here is a different piece from Theodore Kalmoukos in the National Herald.
http://ocl.org/analysis-a-bold-decision-regarding-the-orthodox-church-of-ukraine/
It shows that Mr Kalmoukos strongly supports Patriarch Bartholomew.
As for myself, I do hope that everyone calms down. Is there a compromise possible?
And remember that neither of the competing forces claiming to be the proper Orthodox in Ukraine are the only choices available to the people there. There are also the Uniates and numerous Protestants seeking to claim that nation. If we do not calm things, the future of Ukraine could look like this:
http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/cwn/2017/september/hundreds-of-thousands-gather-in-the-streets-of-ukraine-to-praise-the-name-of-jesus
That US Protestant CBN outlet showing Protestant enthusiasm in Ukraine simply ignored Ukraine’s Orthodox Christian history altogether.
” ‘Master,’ said John, ‘we saw someone driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not accompany us.’ ‘Do not stop him, Jesus replied, ‘for whoever is not against you is for you.’
And as St. Paul said to the Phillipians: “What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.”
So we should worry that hundreds of thousands proclaim Christ? Perhaps we Orthodox should start proclaiming Christ in the marketplace, and gathering the thousands to do so.
Excellent point Tim. Still, I gather that many readers of this blog are favorably disposed to Orthodox Christianity and would be wanting Ukraine to remain mostly in the Orthodox camp. If a simple administrative change will help in that regard, so be it.
Certainly none of this squabbling helps bring more people anywhere to Orthodox Christianity.
Preaching another Christ…
You should read the book of the same same by Saint Theophan the Recluse.
Tim, AMEN.
Hey just look at him. WHAT MORE DO I NEED TO SAY. Just look at him
In this articleMetropolitan Emmanuel strongly and forcefully defends Patriarch Bartholomew’s right to declare autocephaly in Ukraine. It is such a staunch defense that one wonders, truly, if Emmanuel is Bartholomew’s choice as the next archbishop of the GOA because Bartholomew needs a staunch ally as archbishop here.
Manny’s in the bag.
I would certainly have to agree, GM. But then again, doesn’t every leader have the right to promote their own?
From what I have been led to believe, then Metropolitan Demetrios, was originally going to be sent here as interim. In an attempt to hopefully unite the then fractured “Church” here in the U.S..
Yes, it seems if all goes as planned, His Eminence Metropolitan Emmanuel of France, who was born in Crete, Greece, will be the next Archbishop of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, and His Eminence Metropolitan Elpidophoros of Bursa and Exarch of Bithynia, who was born in Istanbul, Turkey, will be the next Ecumenical Patriarch.
So much for the Episcopal Assembly in America. Will be interesting to see what formally happens to the American Orthodox Episcopal Assembly once the EP issues this “sham autocephaly” in Ukraine. Obviously it will fall apart, or maybe only bishops who tow the line of the EP will be invited to participate.
This Ukrainian “autocephaly” issue is all over the Orthodox news. Would be good to see some joint statements from the Orthodox bishops in America. I’ve seen a statement from the ROCOR synod but that’s it. Haven’t seen any statement at all from the OCA or from the American Antiochian bishops. Our American bishops should be advising Joe Biden on what he’s doing before photos pop up of him having tea and cookies with “Patriarch Filaret” in Ukraine. Of course Biden is protecting his family’s oil investments in Ukraine — neither he nor anyone else in the American government could give two hoots about what’s really going on with the Orthodox in Ukraine.
I’ve read that the American bishops were far more united back in the early days of SCOBA in the 1960s than they are now — seems accurate.
I am patiently waiting for all the Orthodox Churches to support and defend the canonical Ukrainian Church and thus send Bartholomew into schism where he can begin his plans for union with Rome and the uniates. I wonder if Bartholomew and Francis will fight over who holds supreme papal infallibility….or perhaps they’ll split it 50/50.
http://orthochristian.com/115834.html
The danger is not in what Bartholomew
does. The danger is in what Poroshenko does. Poroshenko has always had the power to steal MP churches and has done so many times. With a tomos, what he may do is sweep the country of MP churches, seizing the property, and seizing holy sites.
That could result in the Russian army taking Kiev. There might be no other way to stop the bleeding.
That’s generally how I see this also. Poroshenko’s main argument for autocephaly is for “reasons of national security”. Although it’s a valid point, it just sounds like an ominous pretext for civil war.
Misha: Your comment about how the Ukrainian government’s opposition to the Moscow-affiliated churches could cause the Russian army to take Kiev is probably to most outlandish thing I have read on here. Would Putin actually order such a move over these church matters? To Kiev?
In the matter of the currently tense Russian-Ukrainian relations, Orthodox Christianity should be a place of mediation and not just another battlefront.
“Would Putin actually order such a move over these church matters? To Kiev?”
He would not hesitate. Bear in mind that they almost took Tblisi in the Russo-Georgian War of 2008. Only America sending Condi Rice in stopped Russia from taking the capital and displacing Sakaashvili and his cohorts (who were forced out eventually anyway). The presenting issue would not be the autocephaly. The presenting issue would be the confiscation of MP churches and holy sites and the assault on Russian Orthodox believers in the Ukraine that would accompany such moves. That is not a “church matter” but a matter of Russian national interest.
Poroshenko is digging his own political grave.
No. He will wait for Poroshenko to make the previous mistake of trying to retake Crimea and then will re-inforce the troops in Crimea to go all the way to Kiev and L’vov.
Either way…
We’ll see if Poroshenko is as gullible as Saakashvili. Wouldn’t be at all surprised of he turns out to be as foolish.
Dear Mishka:
You want to bad mouth me? Go ahead son, you are simply demonstrating your ignorance and bad manners. Do you think you can intimidate me? I grew up with Russian and Belorussian babushki who would eat the likes of you for lunch on your very best day.
Quit while you’re ahead.
George:
I have provided your readers with a detailed history of the MP’s serial violations of the sacred canons and the divine commandments. To date, not one of your correspondents has been able to provide a single countervailing fact or logical argument.
How do you expect any rational person to take you seriously when all you have is an endless overflow of mindless bluster and Kremlin propaganda ?
Such a serious topic deserves a serious discussion. So far, George, your fan club has failed the sobriety test.
You are correct that there is a geopolitical struggle underlying the church politics; but it is the criminal gang in the Kremlin and their acolytes in the Donskoi who have decided to pursue a war against the civilized world. Kirill and Onufrey are simply Putin’s puppets.
Sadly none of you have even considered what your vocal support for a belligerent anti-America dictator will mean for the Orthodox here in America. Putin is playing a high stakes game of chicken. Perhaps you missed the news – Russian nuclear capable bombers with fighter escorts buzzed the Alaskan coast multiple times last week.
If war breaks out, and it is far closer than any of you think……your friends in the MAGA caps will be the first ones in line looking to torch an onion dome. And you will share the responsibility for that.
Francis Frost says:
Orthodoxy or death. Bring it on.
Interesting how the USA can complain about Russian bombers touring our coasts when we did the same to Russia and China for many, many, years. And, we still do so; we just are concerned when they do the same to us.
“…when we hear such slogans as, ‘Orthodoxy or death,’ we need to beware of such preachers”.
-Homily of Patriarch Kirill on Sunday of Orthodoxy
https://incendiarious.wordpress.com/2009/03/12/homily-of-patriarch-kirill-on-the-sunday-of-orthodoxy/
“If it occurs to someone to say something about doctrine which breaks with the tradition of the Holy Fathers and the Ecumenical and pious local councils, then such a person must consider well why, in the name of what goal, he is proposing this or that innovation. If from the mouth of such a person we hear a flood of abuse, occasionally even dirty slander, which rains onto the Church and her servants, if we hear fervent calls to battle, to division, to the salvation of Orthodoxy even to death, when we hear such slogans as, ‘Orthodoxy or death,’ we need to beware of such preachers.
“The Lord never said, ‘My teaching or death.’ Not one apostle said, ‘Orthodoxy or death.’
Because Orthodoxy is eternal life, joy in the Holy Spirit, joy of life, beauty of life, but death is decay, the result of the fall, and the devil’s influence. Among us even today appear, from time to time, false teachers who tempt the people with the call to save Orthodoxy, to save its purity, and who repeat that dangerous, sinful, and contradictory slogan, ‘Orthodoxy or death.’ In the eyes of such people you will not find love; in them burns the demonic fire of pride, the striving for Church power, and the destruction of Church unity. On the outside all this may have a pious look, a good appearance, and enjoy the veneration of a number of people.”
-Homily of Patriarch Kirill on Sunday of Orthodoxy
Francis, you are not only ignorant of the history of the ROC, your unChristian hatred of Russia provides us all with a classic example of cognitive dissonance. Because of your hatred you are consuming the neo-papalist kool-aid that is being peddled by the academic bishops of Cpole.
Let me explain: it has to do with your love of all things Georgian. A simple question: is the Georgian Church canonical? If you answer “yes” then how do you explain its grant of autocephaly which was granted by Antioch in the first millennium? If you answer “no” then everything Georgian you have peddled lo, these many years is illegitimate.
One cannot believe in the canonicity of the Georgian Church and the EP’s neo-papalism at the same time. Certainly the Catholicos-Patriarch of Georgia doesn’t have these illogical constraints hindering his mental faculties.
Right. The Georgian church was run by Antioch for hundreds of years before its autocephaly and yet no one says that antioch is guilty of anything. Ukraine has been a nation for how long now? A church needs to prove that it is responsible enough for its own autocephaly. Ukraine definitely has not shown that yet, and neither has the OCA for that matter. These things take time. Sadly when you live in a land that is a hotbed for geopolitical meddling it becomes very difficult for one side to just hand the churches over.
What criteria do you pose for ‘maturity’ that would qualify the OCA? I don’t see much of that substance in the Phanar!
Even if I do not agree with Francis on many things, I do not think he is ignorant of the history of the ROC. For a refresher, see
https://orthodoxie.com/en/archbishop-job-getcha-of-telmessos-ukraine-has-always-been-the-canonical-territory-of-the-ecumenical-patriarchate/
The ROC guiding principle over the last few hundred years looks like it was taken straight out of the Pirate Code: “Take what you can, give nothing back”
Telmessos….doesn’t sound like it’s in Ukraine.
The good archbishop might look first at the antics of his ethnarch under the Turkish yoke, while the Ottomans consecrated the Phanariots masters of all Christians they conquered, if he wan’t to see the application of the “Pirate Code.”
George, you may have made a skillful and technically legal argument concerning autocephaly, but let us address a far more important statement just made by Francis. He stated:
“If war breaks out, and it is far closer than any of you think……your friends in the MAGA caps will be the first ones in line looking to torch an onion dome.”
Are we that close to war? If so, all the more reason for Orthodox Christians in the US, whatever their jurisdictions, to be forces for mediation on these matters, for calming people rather than arousing them.
John, I will ignore Francis’ febrile imaginings for the moment and answer you thusly: yes, I believe that we are that close to war. Our Deep State has not whetted its appetite for war one whit. (I’d say it’s another matter as far as the American people are concerned, after all, they voted for Trump, the bane of interventionism.) Trump, for all his manifold successes on the home front, still does not have complete control of foreign policy and in my opinion, is a hostage of the Military-Industrial-Complex.
Do not forget, that we are now in the 17th year of an unwinnable war in Afghanistan, the longest shooting war in American history. (The Korean War is still technically ongoing as it only ended in an armistice.)
John, as for “calming” the situation, we should do what we can. Pray, fast, be steadfast. Having said that, I am not optimistic. Ever since the meddling of the Phanar, the timbre of many of the bishops selected for various dioceses leaves much to be desired. And of course the Episcopal Assembly was created as a false-front to confound any actual attempts at unity. As for the everyday layman, I believe that we are singularly ill-equipped to mount an effective response to the MIC.
Still, I am somewhat mollified by the fact that His Eminence Arb Demetrios of the GOA did not take the hint and step down. I realize that this will sound controversial to some, but I believe that as long as he stands his ground there may be hope for a greater unity in America. At the very least, he can prevent the EP from ramming another globalist/papalist (such as Lambrianides) down our throats.
George this guy is a little too obscessed. I have my criticism of Kyrill but on what currently going on he is in right and no one here has mentioned that in 1991 due to trajic historical circumstances if u took Ukrainian parishes away from Moscow, that was vast majority. Now that rapidly changing but needs time for the Church of Russia to realise it’s full potential and autocephaly will come naturally.
As for Georgia. Wars are bloody and barbaric or has no one been paying attention to Yemen et al? But EVEN EU found in Moscow’ s favour in their report on war.
Constantinople is merely trying to perpetuate and expand a byzantine empire mentality as did in BALKANS. For obvious reasons now GOCA is in melt down.
Yes we cannot have lawlessness and Orthodoxy is in admin crisis one could say but that is where we sadly are
Pope Francis Unveils New Rules for Synod of Bishops – Pope Francis’ new rules, which were published only in Italian Sept. 18, said that “according to the theme and circumstances, others who are not honored with episcopal duties can be called to the synod assembly with a role to be determined by the Roman pontiff.”
https://www.arkansas-catholic.org/news/article/5771/Pope-Francis-unveils-new-rules-for-Synod-of-Bishops
Below please find an article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website.
BEHIND THE SOUROZH PHENOMENON: SPIRITUAL FREEDOM OR CULTURAL CAPTIVITY? MELETIOS METAKSAKIS, METROPOLITAN, ARCHBISHOP, POPE AND PATRIARCH
Archpriest Andrew Phillips, Priest Srboliub Miletich
http://orthochristian.com/115756.html
As I have said many times before: Bartholomew is another Metaxakis.
Below please find an article from yesterday on the Orthodoxie website.
A bishop of the Patriarchate of Constantinople was “asked not to concelebrate”
By Emma Cazabonn – 19 September 2018
https://orthodoxie.com/en/a-bishop-of-the-patriarchate-of-constantinople-was-asked-not-to-concelebrate/
Below please find an article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website.
STATEMENT ON THE ECUMENICAL PATRIARCHATE’S PLANS TO GRANT AUTOCEPHALY TO UKRAINIAN SCHISMATICS
Metropolitan Seraphim of Kythira and Antikythera
http://orthochristian.com/115892.html
Below please find an article on the Public Orthodoxy website.
THE HERESY OF PAPISM
by George Demacopoulos
https://publicorthodoxy.org/2018/09/19/the-heresy-of-papism/
I’ve been reading some of these articles on Public Orthodoxy. They address some very relevant issues to our times and I’m not going to go so far as to dismiss their conclusions completely.
However, instead of offering what they offer in an evenhanded, charitable, and respectful way, they clearly have an axe to grind. Just another product of whoever-can-shout-the-loudest-and-criticize-the-most-wins relativist mentality of our age.
No true Orthodox Christian should read anything from that website. Fordham is another vehicle for the Heresiarch Bartholomew from which he justifies his lies and heresies. For a very long time, the anti-Russian Orthodox, George D., has been an apologist for the Phanar. He (and his good buddy Aristotle) are nothing but uniates in sheep’s clothing.
Be watchful.
An excellent article by George Demacopoulos. He writes:
“Because the question of Ukrainian independence has nothing to do with the dogma of the Church, the category of heresy is not applicable.
“Indeed, the Ukrainian ‘question’ is a dispute about jurisdictional authority, the boundaries of independent churches, and who gets to decide when a local church is granted autocephalous status. As I’ve argued elsewhere, these kinds of disputes go back to the late-ancient world and largely mirror broader geopolitical transformations.
“Although I would not do so, one might make the case that the Ecumenical Patriarch is overstepping his authority. Or, one might contend that it is not pastorally prudent for the Ecumenical Patriarch to grant autocephaly to the Ukrainian Church at this time. But neither of those positions would be akin to the slanderous accusation that the Ecumenical Patriarch has succumbed to the heresy of papism.”
I am amazed that people are buying into the claim that only what violates a Church dogma (as defined by the creeds) counts as a heresy. One of the great heresies of the early Church was Donatism, the idea that mysteries of the Church were invalidated by the sins of the priests performing them, and this violated no creedal statements. Neither did Pelagianism (which taught that our salvation does not require divine grace and rejecting the need for infant baptism) yet another of the great early heresies. Even earlier, we find Origen proclaiming two doctrines (the transmigration of souls and universalism) that contradicted no creedal statements, yet both were soundly rejected as heresies of the Church.
The teaching that we can believe anything we want so long as it doesn’t formally contradict one of the Creeds is being promulgated today largely as a license to introduce all kinds of aberrant teachings and practices into the Church, and we need to be wary of endorsing it.
Amazed,
Donatism was condemned at the Council of Arles in 314. Pelagianism was condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 431. Origenism was condemned at the 2nd Council of Constantinople in 553. These condemnations are all part of Church dogma. All of these heresies are condemned because of their erroneous teaching about the Divine Energies, or the Grace of God.
Mr Lipper,
You make a textual error here. The article you cite does not define dogma as conciliar but as creedal. To be specific, in the third paragraph, it defines the criterion for heresy as breaking from the “dogmatic (i.e. creedal) belief in Christ and the Trinity.” This is the usual gambit of this school of “creative theology,” arguing that anything not directly contradicted by the creeds is permissible. However, the major creeds of the Church (most notably, the Nicene and Nicene-Constantinopolitan creeds and the Chalcedonian creed) were intended to resolve specific matters, typically Christological, not to be inclusive statements of doctrine.
So of course, the creeds don ‘t deal with mattes such as ordaining women, same-sex marriage, etc., and thus such extreme beliefs and practices are seen as legitimate options if we take only the creeds as the only standard for doctrine. But the Orthodox Church also looks to conciliar statements, not to mention scripture, liturgies, hymns, iconography, the writings of the Fathers and other modes as addional sources to define its teaching and guard against haresies. It is very convenient for people who wish to reinvent the Chruch to limit heresy narrowly to included only what is in conflict with the creeds. Moreover, this misunderstands the creeds themselves, taking them merely as propositional statements, not as “symbols of faith,” i.e. as drawing together the Orthodox Faith as such.
You (and the author of the article) also make a logical error here, even if we take conciliar belief alone (not creedal belief alone) as the criterion for heresy. For Donatisim, Pelagianism, reincarnation, and universalism were not formally identified as heresies prior to the councils that condemned them. So by the author’s reasoning, they could not have been condemned as heresies since they were not heresies prior to the councils that condemned them. The same applies to papasim. It is the Church itself that defines heresies as they arise, not some quasi-Euclidian set of propositions from which we must make inferences. And the Church has made it abundantly clear in its beliefs and in its actions that papism is heretical.
Very well said.
For what it’s worth, I never understood why the Creed is called “The Symbol of the Faith”. Now I know –the word “symbol” comes from the Greek word symbolos, which means to “draw together two (or more) different concepts into a whole”. The Creed is the “key” to understanding the Faith, not the Faith itself; a hermeneutic if you will.
BTW, the opposite of symbolos is diabolos. Anything which deconstructs is by definition therefore diabolical. At least within the matrix of the Church. We saw this in action from the start of the Reformation when the Reformers wanted to “simplify” Church doctrine. It picked up speed in the 19th century with the Higher Criticism that was all the rage in Germany.
Yes George, Amazed summed up the “dogmatic minimalism” of modern English speaking academic Orthodox theology quite nicely. This line of reasoning appears to have come out of the exilic Paris school, and most of the significant English speaking “theologians” (e.g. Meyendorff, Ware, Behr, the Fordham boys, etc.) of the last 60 years or so subscribe to it. Like most things like this there is some truth to it, but like most things modern it has become twisted in its application and thus itself has become “heresy” – the exaggeration of a truth over and above others for false ends. Thus, Ware and Fordham and the like argue there is not “dogma” around the anthropological issues (e.g. women’s ordination) of the day. As “sister” Vassa has argued from her nominalist faith, there is no “ontology” around these things – only the bald gnomic will of the collective “church”, which she calls choice. Diabolical is the right word unfortunately.
If you want to understand symbolos the essay titled “Sacrament and Symbol” in the appendix of Schmemann’s “For the Life of the World” is essential. The modern mind, rather in secular or religious (i.e. Protestant or RC) form has great difficulty grasping symbol because the modern mind is unconsciously nominalistic, as opposed to realist. Like Amazed says, a nominalist can only read the creed (or any other symbolic content of the Faith) as a statement of Euclidian like, propositional assertions because they don’t have the ability to see the realist teleos of Classical Christianity (or Platonism, Judaism, or Buddhism for that matter). What the modern academic theologian does not understand is that his entire methodology in BOTH it’s formalism and inner spirit is nominalistic – he is a modern scholastic. He imagines himself to have transcended this and to have merely borrowed the otherwise useful methodology of modern scholastic research/scholarship, but the fruit of his minimalism and the negation of pleroma of the fullness of the Faith is there for all to see. As Schemman says worship of the unknowable and unseeable God is symbolic in the original meaning of the term, but to a modern man symbol is not reality (and thus is itself empty) – thus the modern phrase “that is only symbolic of something else…”
It is like David Bentley Hart has said only half jokingly, these “theologians” should all be hauled out and shot every 20 years or so.
If you want to try to understand the basis of this secularist split down the heart of the Faith in modern Orthodox “theology”, go and read Schmemann’s essay right now!
Christopher Encapera
Amazed,
What St. Basil writes to Amphilokios is that “heresy” has to do with matters of our faith in God. It is an incorrect belief about God. The Church’s dogma is “creedal” because it directly refers to the Faith of the Church. The creed is a statement of belief, from the Latin “credo” meaning “I believe”.
Of course, the Nicene Creed is affirmed by the Nicene Council and many councils after, but it doesn’t spell everything out for us. We also have Church history, tradition, canons and doctrine. A person can certainly be wrong about many things, but still not contradict Church dogma with heresy.
That’s what George Demacopoulos is saying here. He says, “one might make the case that the Ecumenical Patriarch is overstepping his authority. Or, one might contend that it is not pastorally prudent for the Ecumenical Patriarch to grant autocephaly to the Ukrainian Church at this time.” These are both valid questions to ask. However, even if the EP is “overstepping” or not being “pastorally prudent”, that’s not the same thing as heresy.
As for the Donatism, Pelagianism, Reincarnation, and Universalism: these are all heresies specifically because of their grave error about the Church’s faith in God.
Papism is a heresy. If it were not, we’d still be in communion with Rome.
It’s impossible impossible to divorce the novel concept of “first without equals” from papism. It is not the “first step” to Popery, it is popery.
George, what is this “heresy of papism”? It just sounds much too vague. Yes, the Orthodox Church broke communion with the Pope of Rome for many different reasons, but when was the “heresy of papism” condemned by the Church?
Certainly the papal addition of the “filioque” to the Nicene Creed is a heresy, and the Orthodox Church also doesn’t recognize “papal dogmas”.
I think one of the Pope’s main problems is that he has no concept whatsoever of granting autocephaly to anyone. He’s against the idea of granting autocephaly. Does that sound familiar? Hello, Moscow?
Joseph, read the 1848 Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs. So should the EP and the MP.
Bingo! We seem to have a lot of Donatists here who might think, for example, that the personal sins of Patriarch Kiril or the gay lifestyle of some other bishop, invalidates the Sacrements they might perform.
I will say this, that I believe that Ecumenism as practiced by many Orthodox leaders is a heresy. I won’t go so far as to say that the Grace of the Holy Spirit departs from clergy who participate in Ecumenism, but I would definitely say there is error there. May we use that word?
Estonian Slovak,
Pope Francis’ new ecumenism with the Moscow Patriarchate is an ecumensim of “walking”. It sounds innocent enough, right? In his address delivered to Metropolitan Hilarion at the Vatican he says, “Ecumenism is accomplished by walking. Let us walk.”
Pope Francis begins the address:
“Thank you very much for your visit, and also for this meeting, which helps us so much to live our faith in unity and in the hope of walking together. I am pleased to take the road to unity with you: the only road that promises us something certain, because the road of division leads us to wars and destruction.”
…and he continues…
“The meeting with His Holiness Kirill did me well; I found a brother. And now, spiritually, we walk together.”
https://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2018/may/documents/papa-francesco_20180530_patriarcato-mosca.html
So, Joseph, I would agree that the Pope is “walking,” but I’m not sure which direction. Seems to me he’s going West; not East.
“The four-day trip is the first by a pope to Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia since 1993. . . Pope Francis will carry a message of solidarity to the Baltic nations on a visit starting on Saturday, nearly 30 years after they broke away from the Soviet Union and as they look warily toward a newly aggressive Russia.”
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-baltic/pope-to-preach-solidarity-on-baltics-visit-in-shadow-of-hostile-russia-idUSKCN1M11IK
Gail Sheppard,
It sounds like the Pope just got back from a trip North and East of the Vatican to the Baltics, as you point out. Curiously, the article you reference frames his visit as one of expressing “solidarity” with the Baltic countries. A visit of “solidarity” sounds more like a visit of political reassurance.
This is also how I interpret the Pope’s address to the Moscow Patriarchate. His ecumenism of “walking” sounds more like an expression of political solidarity than anything else.
“Although I would not do so, one might make the case that the Ecumenical Patriarch is overstepping his authority. Or, one might contend that it is not pastorally prudent for the Ecumenical Patriarch to grant autocephaly to the Ukrainian Church at this time. But neither of those positions would be akin to the slanderous accusation that the Ecumenical Patriarch has succumbed to the heresy of papism.”
I beg to differ. Here are a few (amongst many) of the EP’s proclamations of the heresy of papism. He is also a great supporter of the heresy of ecumenism. And he convened and tried to force heretical concepts down the throats of the other Churches from his robber council.
The beginning of the Orthodox Church is the Ecumenical Patriarchate; “in this is life, and the life is the light of the Churches.”
“Orthodoxy cannot exist without the Ecumenical Patriarchate.”
If the Ecumenical Patriarchate denies its responsibility and removes itself from the inter-Orthodox scene, then the local Churches will proceed “as sheep without a shepherd” (Matt. 9.36), expending their energy in ecclesiastical initiatives that conflate the humility of faith and the arrogance of power.
Mikail,
Do note that Patriarch Bartholomew is not saying the beginning of the Orthodox Church is Rome. Neither is he saying that Orthodoxy can’t exist without the Vatican. On the contrary, he is pointing out the great importance of the Ecumenical Councils in defining what is “Orthodox”.
Without a doubt, Truth has always existed, but “Orthodoxy” is defined by the Ecumenical Councils, and those councils were brought to life through the Holy Roman Empire’s Ecumenical Patriarchate in Constantinople.
The Pope of Rome didn’t have much personal influence in any of the Ecumenical Councils. No reigning Roman Pope ever attended any one of them. The Pope always sent a representative. The eventual addition and confirmation of the “filioque” to the Nicene Creed by the Roman Pontiffs showed the personal disdain they generally had for the Orthodoxy of the Ecumenical Councils.
Greetings JL…… That is not what the heresiarch Bartholomew is saying. What he says sounds very much like papal supremacy. If I was a betting man, I surely wouldn’t make a wager on your “pope of Rome condemns the actions of Bartholomew” theory.
But heresies and schisms aside……Poroshenko will use autocephaly to confiscate Churches and monasteries. There will be more martyrs.
And the blood will be on the hands of the new Metaxakis……Bartholomew.
JL,
Having accused Pat. Bartholomew of heresy many, many times, I have never done so because of his uncanonical encroachment on other Orthodox local churches. That is a sin and a violation of canon law, but not heresy in and of itself.
Pat. Bartholomew’s heresies revolve around his proposed construction of what constitutes “The Church”. He and his lackeys posit a church (in the credal sense) which includes Rome, et al. He has done so longer than he has been patriarch. It is what he means by the phrase “opening up the Orthodox Church” to the 20th/21st century:
* * *
“To see that the text is a product of an ecumenistic – and not truly ecumenical – mindset, one only need to consider what Metropolitan Hierotheos (Vlachos) wrote concerning the text and the debate surrounding it during the “Council”:
‘When the minutes of the Council are published, where the true views of those who decided on and signed the text are recorded, then it will be clear that the Council was dominated by the branch theory, baptismal theology and especially the principle of inclusiveness, i.e. a retreat from the principle of exclusivity to the principle of inclusiveness. During the works of the Council in Crete various distortions of the truth were said [in order to bolster the text] regarding St. Mark of Ephesus, the Council of 1484 and the Synodical encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs in 1848, with regard to the word “Church” as applying to Christians cut off from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.’
The Metropolitan relates elsewhere that proponents of the text and the recognition of the ‘ecclesiality’ of the Western confessions employed aggression and much pressure, including explicatives against those opposed.” – https://orthodoxethos.com/post/the-council-of-crete-and-the-new-emerging-ecclesiology-an-orthodox-examination
* * *
Here is the true position of the Phanar as enunciated by Archbishop Job of Telmessos, Permanent Representative of the Ecumenical Patriarchate at the WCC:
“Another very important and significant event that is often ignored not only by the antagonists of the participation of the Orthodox Church in the Ecumenical Movement, but by many Orthodox in general, is the lifting up of the anathemas of 1054 between the Churches of Rome and Constantinople at the end of the Second Vatican Council, on December 7th, 1965. As the Church historian and canonist Vlassios Phidas writes, ‘it is obvious, from a canonical point of view, that this ecclesial situation of the rupture of communion (akoinonesia) is clearly distinguished from the state of an accomplished schism, since, by the lifting up of the anathemas of 1054, we are now standing in the situation we were before their imposition’.[9] Therefore, if the Church of Rome and the Church of Constantinople are now in a state of rupture of communion (akoinonesia), due to historical events and theological disputes, while both sides wish today to restore the full ecclesiastical communion, how can some dare, even through the voice of a local synod, not to acknowledge the Church of Rome as a Church, or to consider her members as schismatics, or even, as heretics?” – https://www.orthodoxcouncil.org/-/the-ecumenical-significance-of-the-holy-and-great-council-of-the-orthodox-church
* * *
Athos has had enough of this as have certain elements in the Church of Greece.
The true Orthodox attitude toward Rome can be gathered from the Encyclical of Eastern Patriarchs 1848, and this even before Infallibility was proclaimed:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx
Misha,
The way things are lining up right now in Ukraine, it’s seems to me the Pope of Rome will condemn not only the Ukrainian autocephaly, but also Patriarch Bartholomew for facilitating it. Pope Francis has been clear that he is siding with Moscow on this one. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: I wouldn’t be surprised if Pope Francis joins Moscow in eventually declaring a “Holy War on schismatic Orthodoxy”. It hasn’t happened yet, but I believe it will happen soon.
If this happens, then all the arguments that various people make about how Patriarch Bartholomew is trying to create a “unia” with Rome will be null and void. If the EU and Pope Francis attack Patriarch Bartholomew, then all the arguments about the EP selling out on Orthodoxy will be entirely misguided.
Of course the great irony, if this happens, will be how Patriarch Bartholomew always showed the very most kindness to the Popes of Rome when they visited him.
JL,
Whatever he says publicly, I’m sure Francis and his ilk are delighted at what Bartholomew is doing. They are not siding with Moscow at all but attempting merely to maintain a veneer of non-interference at the same time as their local office, the Ukrainian Uniates, vocally support the initiative, though staying out of the meetings to make it seem all Orthodox.
Bartholomew’s project has always been to gather the most Orthodox he can under his influence in order to bring them over into a Unia with Rome. That was the purpose of the Cretan Council. This interference in the Ukraine merely continues that policy.
The Ukrainian Uniates are in favor of it and Francis seems merely to be preserving deniability to preserve good relations with Moscow:
https://cruxnow.com/church-in-europe/2018/08/31/cleric-no-going-back-on-ukraine-split-from-russia-church/
https://cruxnow.com/church-in-europe/2018/09/14/russian-orthodox-church-mulls-strategy-on-ukraine/
Demacopoulos gets quite a lot wrong in his screed for PO. First of all, “papism” = “Roman Catholicism”. It is simply a different name for the same heresy based on its most prominent feature, the Roman notion of papal supremacy and primacy. So papism is by definition heretical. Need we list all the heresies of Rome from papal infallibility to the Immaculate Conception to original guilt to created grace, etc? One need not confine oneself to the obvious definition of the papacy as having universal, ordinary and immediate jurisdiction over every diocese and member in the church.
Roman Catholicism has been a distinct faith and a heretical one at that since the name of Rome was struck from the diptychs of Constantinople in the early 11th century.
Now, what Met. Hilarion of Volokolamsk was saying is that the impudent arrogance inherent in the CP’s present actions mimic the heresy of papism. Heresy is not just a disagreement regarding dogma. Heresy is also purporting to impose a doctrine or practice as being catholic on the rest of the Church that is not in fact part of Holy Tradition. We don’t just make it up.
So Constantinople asserts its right to cross local church boundaries into Russia’s omophorion in order to establish an autocephalous church there. Sounds very, very much like universal, ordinary and immediate jurisdiction. What Bartholomew aspires to be, an Eastern Pope, is certainly heretical and an imposition of false doctrine on the rest of the Church.
The die is cast, however. Demacopoulos will not be convinced because his religion is Greek Supremacy, not Orthodoxy. The nastiness with which the Greeks in the Phanar have tended to address the Russians has not been forgotten, just so far unreciprocated.
I fear that day has passed. Russians are now openly referring to the CP as treacherous, dishonest and heterodox. All that stands between where we are now and formal excommunication is an official tomos being issued.
Then the CP will be cast out of the Church. And it’s about time.
As before, everyone is free to decide where the True Church exists. There will be those who follow the CP into heresy just as there were those who followed Rome.
Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA finally responded to the Ukrainian situation. He’s asking people to continue to pray for the Ecumenical Patriarch, for Patriarch Kirill and for Metropolitan Onuphrey of the canonical UOC-MP. He writes that hopefully there will be a council of local churches to address the situation in Ukraine.
https://oca.org/news/headline-news/metropolitan-tikhon-issues-archpastoral-letter-concerning-recent-developmen
Misha, what if the Pope was Orthodox? Patriarchate Kirill is commemorated as Patriarch all over the world through exarchates such as ROCOR. Is this not a tendency towards papism?
Below please find a comment from article that appeared on September 14th, in The National Herald.
Bartholomew Sends Exarchy to Ukraine; Moscow Responds with Threats
By Theodore Kalmoukos – September 14, 2018
************
Jason Bournelas says:
September 16, 2018 at 8:52 pm
This is a battle between the US and Russia. The EP, Ukraine government and its two version churches, the Moscow Patriarch, are merely supporting cast to Trump vs, Putin and their diplomatic and intelligence arms.
Keep your eye on Sam Brownback, former Kansas US Senator, Governor, and Congressman, now US Ambassador at Large for Religious Freedoms. He’s on point.
EP will be okay as long as US is driving this effort, Russians know not to mess with Donald. Besides State Dept, CIA is also watching out for Bart, probably with financial and information support.
This is so much bigger than theology and canons, gang, despite all the diarrhea in all the posts and from the THC. This is big League high stakes Geo-Politics with people, land, money, and power as the prize.
GS, the problem with this on a purely geopolitical angle only is that “the best-laid plans of the generals do not survive once the shooting starts” (paraphrasing von Clausewitz here).
Consider: Churchill was an unabashed British imperialist who believed in the eternal rightness of the British Empire. He perceived Hitler to be a thorn in that plan, hence his desire to go to war with him. What happened after WWII? Did the British Empire survive that horrible conflict. No it did not.
We should tread carefully in The Borderlands. And as for the EP/Phanar, this is doubly so. The CIA is not the most steadfast ally. Just ask the Diem brothers, or Fulgencio Battista, or the Shah of Iran. When the time comes to let the EP go (esp if he doesn’t get on with the sodomist program) then all bets are off.
Below please find an interview with Metropolitan Emmanuel of France on the Archons website.
Metropolitan Emmanuel (Ecumenical Patriarchate), “through dialogue faith becomes an agent of peace”
by M. Chiara Biagioni | September 10, 2018
Read this article on the web site of Servizio Informazione Religiosa
https://www.archons.org/-/metropolitanemmanuelonukraine
It seems to me that whenever a group of people do something egregious the rationalistic part of the mind kicks in to justify it. If Met Emmanuel believes this, then that is what is going on here. Either that or he’s not that intelligent.
Bournelas might as well dream on. The refusal to concelebrate with hierarchs of the CP is just the beginning. When the CP actually issues a tomos, the MP will sever communion with it.
This will not go away like previous breaks. Moscow made a serious mistake by not excommunicating Bartholomew as a heretic after the Crete Robber Council. That might have obviated all of this. It will not make the same mistake twice, nor will it be given the opportunity to do so by the CP.
The CP will not back down about its “responsibilities” in the Ukraine. Moreover, all the theft and carnage that Poroshenko will institute will be rightly accountable to the CP because the CP’s actions were in direct response to Poroshenko’s request. It did not take a rocket scientist to figure out he wanted leverage to seize MP property and convert MP churches in the Ukraine. That much has always been obvious, even explicit.
That is what too many are missing about this whole debacle: This is the end of an Orthodox Church which contains both the CP and the MP – period, full stop. After the break, each local church will have to decide where it lines up (11-12 churches are on record already, but hard to say how or if they will break when push comes to shove).
You see, the issue of secondary intercommunion may come up.
When one breaks for canonical actions, it is perhaps arguable that there is not necessarily an issue of secondary communion. That is why I hope the MP has the foresight to charge the CP with heresy as well. If it did, then secondary communion would become an issue and the MP could refrain from intercommunion with any local church that maintained communion with the CP. That would seal the deal.
That is the best case prospective scenario since it solves the CP question once and for all. All the Russians need to do is take a look at the heresy petition currently before the Synod of Greece.
It would be very nice never to have to deal with the Phanar again. They are demons in angels’ garb.
Below please find an article which first appeared on Friday, in The National Herald. In addition, take note of the comments below it.
Archdiocese Sends 237K for the Attica Fires Victims
By TNH Staff – September 22, 2018
https://www.thenationalherald.com/214119/archdiocese-sends-237k-for-the-attica-fires-victims/
Below please find an article from yesterday on the Orthodox Christianity website.
WHAT MOVED PATRIARCH BARTHOLOMEW TO LAY TO RUIN UKRAINIAN ORTHODOXY?
Kirill Alexandrov
This is an English translation of an article from the Ukrainian news website, The Union of Orthodox Journalists.
http://orthochristian.com/115911.html
Below please find an article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website.
ABBOT OF KIEV CAVES LAVRA ADDED TO LIST OF ENEMIES OF UKRAINE ON GOV’T-BACKED WEBSITE
Kiev, September 24, 2018
http://orthochristian.com/115944.html
Below please find another article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website.
PATRIARCH BARTHOLOMEW PROMISES TO SOON GRANT AUTOCEPHALY IN UKRAINE
Constantinople, September 24, 2018
http://orthochristian.com/115933.html
Please excuse me for posting this here as I wasn’t sure where to post. Below please find an article from today in The National Herald.
Metropolis of Chicago Begins Full Review of Finances
By TNH Staff – September 24, 2018
https://www.thenationalherald.com/214360/metropolis-of-chicago-begins-full-review-of-finances/
http://katehon.com/article/how-us-prepared-split-orthodox-churches-horsemen-apocalypse-ukraine
http://orthochristian.com/115911.html
Great stuff. The first is an article from Katehon alleging open bribery as the motive for the Phanar’s current actions – $10M from the St. Nicholas fund. The second is a walk through the possible motivations of the CP similar to my own recent one posted here which comes to a similar conclusion: This is US policy being enacted through the vehicle of its attack dog, the Phanar. Yet the second article points out that following the resurrection of the Russian Church, such endeavors are dramatically more perilous than when the CP could simply steal from and pick on a captive local church.
Below please find an article from today on the Katehon website.
HOW THE US PREPARED THE SPLIT OF THE ORTHODOX CHURCHES. HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE FOR UKRAINE
24.09.2018
USA
http://katehon.com/article/how-us-prepared-split-orthodox-churches-horsemen-apocalypse-ukraine
Below please find an article from Friday on the Katehon website.
THE ORTHODOX EAST OWES MUCH OF ITS EXISTENCE TO RUSSIA AND THE RUSSIAN CHURCH
21.09.2018
Russia
Mikhail Tyurenkov
http://katehon.com/article/orthodox-east-owes-much-its-existence-russia-and-russian-church
Below please find another article from today on the Katehon website.
US STATE DEPARTMENT ON UKRAINE: ‘ANY DECISION ON AUTOCEPHALY IS AN INTERNAL CHURCH MATTER’
24.09.2018
Ukraine
James George Jatras
http://katehon.com/article/us-state-department-ukraine-any-decision-autocephaly-internal-church-matter
Quoted from the article, historian-orientalist and the director of Katehon, Mikhail Yakushev:
“But personally it seems to me that our church diplomacy needs to show great resolve. We must not be afraid to aggravate our relations with Bartholomew even more. Because this is a question more political than religious. And the right and the truth are on our side.”
Sounds to me like a call to war.
Below please find an article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website.
“THE ECUMENICAL PATRIARCHATE HAS COMMITTED MANY ERRORS, AND THIS CAUSES US PAIN!”An interview with Metropolitan Anthony of Boryspil and Brovary with Romfea
Metropolitan Anthony (Pakanich) of Boryspol and Brovary
http://orthochristian.com/115945.html
Below please find another article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website.
UKRAINE ON THE THRESHOLD OF CATASTROPHE: WHAT THE FIGHTERS FOR AUTOCEPHALY REALLY WANT
Dimitry Marchenko
http://orthochristian.com/115972.html
Below please find an article from yesterday on the Basilica Romania website.
Joint declaration of Patriarch Theodoros of Alexandria and Metropolitan Sawa of
Published by Aurelian Iftimiu 24.09.2018
http://basilica.ro/en/joint-declaration-of-patriarch-theodoros-of-alexandria-and-metropolitan-sawa-of-warsaw-regarding-the-situation-of-ukraine/
He who is second in the diptychs can be first.
This is an excellent point, George and I submit that the Patriarch of Alexandria is auditioning for the role:
https://mospat.ru/en/2018/10/01/news164499/ – takes upon himself responsibility to inform local churches of conditions in Ukraine
https://mospat.ru/en/2018/10/01/news164505/ – says he will not bow down before politicians
https://mospat.ru/en/2018/10/01/news164503/ – co-consecrated a cathedral in Ukraine with UOC/MP Met. Onuphry
http://foto.patriarchia.ru/news/torzhestva-v-moskve-po-sluchayu-1030-letiya-kreshcheniya-rusi-liturgiya-na-sobornoy-ploshchadi-kremlya-moleben-u-pamyatnika-svyatomu-ravnoapostolnomu-knyazyu-vladimiru/ – And at the recent 1030th anniversary of the Conversion of Rus, Pat. Theodoros concelebrated with Pat. Kirill and led the procession of the cross afterwards.
My guess is that everyone involved knows where this is going:
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=14505 – Met. Hilarion on local churches’ probable reaction to Ukrainian autocephaly
Below please find an article from yesterday in The National Herald. Unfortunately, the article is locked and doesn’t appear in its entirety. I will continue to be on the lookout for the article in its entirely, and if found, I will post.
Why Do They Delay?
By Theodore Kalmoukos – September 24, 2018
https://www.thenationalherald.com/214391/why-do-they-delay/
Below please find another article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website.
UKRAINIAN HOLY SYNOD CALLS ON CONSTANTINOPLE TO STOP INTERFERING IN ITS INTERNAL AFFAIRS
http://orthochristian.com/115999.html
Below please find another article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website.
ROCOR EXPRESSES SUPPORT FOR RUSSIAN HOLY SYNOD’S RESPONSE TO CONSTANTINOPLE; APPOINTS BISHOP FOR WESTERN EUROPE
London, September 25, 2018
http://orthochristian.com/115984.html
Below please find an article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website.
“KIEV PATRIARCHATE” BISHOP: WE ARE NOT BISHOPS UNLESS CONSTANTINOPLE LIFTS ANATHEMA AGAINST PHILARET
Constantinople cannot proclaim autocephaly on the foundation of the Moscow Patriarchate, Zorya explains.
Kiev, September 26, 2018
http://orthochristian.com/116020.html
Below please find an article from today on the Byzantine, Texas website.
Wednesday, September 26, 2018
OCA Primate calls for pan-Orthodox synaxis over Ukraine
(OCA) – On Wednesday, September 26, 2018, His Beatitude, Metropolitan Tikhon addressed an Archpastoral Letter to the clergy, monastics and faithful of the Orthodox Church in America in reference to recent developments with regard to the Orthodox Church in Ukraine.
http://byztex.blogspot.com/2018/09/oca-primate-calls-for-pan-orthodox.html?m=1
Below please find an article from yesterday on the Orthodox Christianity website.
MET. ONUPHRY BECOMES A TARGET: LABELED ENEMY OF UKRAINE, TOLD TO LEAVE, RECEIVES DEATH THREATS
Kiev, September 26, 2018
http://orthochristian.com/116027.html
Below please find another article from yesterday on the Orthodox Christianity website.
UKRAINIAN SYNOD CALLS ON PARLIAMENT TO GIVE UP ANTI-ORTHODOX BILLS, NOT TO DIVIDE UKRAINIAN FAITHFUL
Kiev, September 26, 2018
http://orthochristian.com/116025.html
Below please find an article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website.
PATRIARCH OF ALEXANDRIA VISITS UKRAINE IN SHOW OF SOLIDARITY WITH CANONICAL CHURCH (+ VIDEO)
Constantinople hierarchs and Ukrainian media have misrepresented Patriarch Theodoros’ stance on the Ukrainian autocephaly issue.
http://orthochristian.com/116055.html
Below please find another article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website.
COMING BACK TO ONESELF
An Orthodox Method for the Reconciliation of the Lapsed in the Light of the Recent Ukrainian Issue
Fr. Nemanja S. Mrdjenovic
http://orthochristian.com/115967.html
Below please find an article from yesterday on the Orthodoxy Cognate Page website.
Patriarch Athenagoras Clearly States How Autocephaly Must Be Granted
by ORTHODOXY COGNATE PAGE on SEPTEMBER 27, 2018
in FEATURED, FEATURED NEWS, NEWS
http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/patriarch-athenagoras-clearly-states-how-autocephaly-must-be-granted/
Below please find an article from today by the Associated Press, in The National Herald.
Russian Orthodox Church Issues Warning to Orthodoxy’s Leader Bartholomew
By Associated Press – September 28, 2018
https://www.thenationalherald.com/214759/russian-orthodox-church-issues-warning-to-orthodoxys-leader-bartholomew/
Below please find a press release from today on the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America website.
NEWS OFFICIAL NEWS 2018
Regarding the granting of Autocephaly to the Church of Ukraine
Contact: Stavros Papagermanos Tel.: 212-570-3530 Email: pressoffice@goarch.org
September 28, 2018
https://www.goarch.org/-/regarding-the-granting-of-autocephaly-to-the-church-of-ukraine
Below please find an article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website.
CHURCH OF CYPRUS PREPARED TO BECOME MEDIATOR IN SETTLEMENT OF UKRAINIAN CHURCH ISSUE
Archbishop Chrysostomos’ words were falsely reported by the Ukrainian government.
Nicosia, Cyprus, September 28, 2018
http://orthochristian.com/116069.html
Below please find an article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website.
GRAND DUCHESS MARIA VLADIMIROVNA: CONSTANTINOPLE’S POSITION WILLL LEAD TO THE FRAGMENTATION OF THE PILLARS OF ORTHODOXY
Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna Romanova
http://orthochristian.com/115991.html
More Greeks are married to Slavic Catholic that Slavic Orthodox
Below please find an article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website.
PRESERVING ORTHODOX UNITY
Jad Ganem
http://orthochristian.com/116030.html
Below please find an article from today on the Interfax Religion website.
30 September 2018
Ukrainian Orthodox Church suggests Patriarch Bartholomew do missionary work in Turkey
http://www.interfax-religion.com/
Please excuse me for posting this here as I wasn’t sure where to post. Below please find an article from today in The National Herald.
Unfortunately, the article is locked and doesn’t appear in its entirety. I will continue to be on the lookout for the article in its entirely, and if found, I will post.
Elder Ephraim of Mt. Athos Speaks with TNH
By Theodore Kalmoukos
September 30, 2018
https://www.thenationalherald.com/214881/elder-ephraim-of-mt-athos-speaks-with-tnh/
Please take note, the below article in The National Herald is unlocked and in its entirety.
Elder Ephraim of Mt. Athos Speaks with TNH
By Theodore Kalmoukos October 1, 2018
https://www.thenationalherald.com/214881/elder-ephraim-of-mt-athos-speaks-with-tnh/
Below please find an article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website.
BORN OF SCHISMOn the historical circumstances of the emergence of the “Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada”
Sergei Geruk, Bishop Job (Smakouz)
http://orthochristian.com/116116.html
Below please find another article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website. Once again, the article misstates His Eminence Archbishop Demetrios, as being affiliated with the American-Ukrainian Diocese.
HOW THE US PREPARED THE SPLIT OF THE ORTHODOX CHURCHES. HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE FOR UKRAINE
Archpriest Andrew Phillips
http://orthochristian.com/116119.html
Below please find yet another article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website.
PATRIARCH OF ALEXANDRIA PLEDGES TO SPEAK TO ORTHODOX LEADERS TO SAVE CANONICAL CHURCH IN UKRAINE (+ VIDEOS)
Odessa, October 1, 2018
http://orthochristian.com/116123.html
Below please find an article from Thursday on the Catholic Herald of the UK (England and Wales) website.
Comment & Blogs
The Orthodox Church is on the brink of a new Great Schism
by Fr Mark Drew
Posted Thursday, 27 Sep 2018
http://catholicherald.co.uk/issues/sep-28th-2018/the-orthodox-church-is-on-the-brink-of-new-great-schism/
Please excuse me for posting this here as I wasn’t sure where to post. Below please find an article from Thursday on the OCL Facebook website.
October 2018: Pan-Orthodox Cleveland, The Assembly of Bishops and OCL’s 31st Annual Meeting
BY WEBMASTER ON SEPTEMBER 27, 2018
GOVERNANCE & UNITY ESSAYS,
GOVERNANCE & UNITY NEWS,
UNCATEGORIZED
http://ocl.org/october-2018-pan-orthodox-cleveland-the-assembly-of-bishops-and-ocls-31st-annual-meeting/
Below please find an article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website.
GEORGIAN CHURCH: UKRAINIAN ISSUE REQUIRES INVOLVEMENT OF BOTH MOSCOW AND CONSTANTINOPLE
Tbilisi, October 1, 2018
http://orthochristian.com/116142.html
Below please find another article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website.
PAT. KIRILL PROPOSED HOLDING MEETING TO DISCUSS HISTORY OF KIEV’S RELATIONSHIP TO RUSSIAN CHURCH, PAT. BARTHOLOMEW REFUSED
Constantinople, October 1, 2018
http://orthochristian.com/116140.html
This headline is deliberately misleading and once again we are expected to believe an “Orthodox” “news” website that present falsehoods as truth. There was a meeting of hierarchs in Constantinople on August 31, and Patriarch Bartholomew and Patriarch Kyrill, along with many other leaders of the Church, met for hours and had long discussions discussing these issues. We simply do not know what is going on behind the scenes. Why should a thinking person be expected to trust the source when the headlines and articles are clearly lying, or biased, or spin-doctoring, or taking quotations out of context, or providing articles with no English translations available? One can have opinions, but I don’t know why. Seems to me the truth is better.
Below please find yet another article from today on the Orthodox Christianity website.
“THERE’S A NEW CHURCH SCHISM AT OUR DOOR”: ECUMENICAL PATRIARCH SHOULD UNITE, NOT DIVIDE ORTHODOXY—MET. AMBROSE
Kalavryta, Greece, October 1, 2018
http://orthochristian.com/116134.html
Once again, please excuse me for posting this here, as I wasn’t sure where to post. Below please find a press release from today on the Basilica Romania website.
» Press Releases »
National Church Assembly urges believers to vote YES to marriage referendum
Published by Aurelian Iftimiu 01.10.2018
http://basilica.ro/en/national-church-assembly-urges-believers-to-vote-yes-to-marriage-referendum/
Please excuse me for posting this here as I wasn’t sure where to post. Below please find a you tube video from today in The National Herald.
Published at 10/4/2018
Elder Ephraim of Mt. Athos Visits St. Nicholas at Ground Zero
I hope the link below works:
https://youtu.be/kS1Pnml2F-I
Actually, the EP and Patriarch Kirill met privately for over 2 hours. Metropolitan Emmanuel and the head of the MP Department for External Church Relations were also there. According to the latter (this has been widely reported) Kirill proposed to the EP to “hold a meeting of scholars and hierarchs at which it would be possible to discuss the historical documents concerning the question of the Kiev Metropolis’ inclusion into the Moscow Patriarchate in 1686.” Two days later the EP sent his envoy to Ukraine making such discussions impossible. So the headline is not misleading.
I would agree; the truth is better.
https://www.patriarchate.org/-/his-beatitude-patriarch-kirill-of-moscow-at-the-phanar
I haven’t found any evidence that “the EP sent his envoy to Ukraine making such discussions impossible.” Can you provide evidence to back up your statement? The headline actually does seem misleading, based on the article that follows. I will venture a guess that discussions between the two Patriarchs (who have known each other for decades) along with many other of the hierarchs, have been taking place behind the scenes for many years, long before the August 31st meeting, and that those discussions would most likely have included “the question of the Kiev Metropolis’ inclusion into the Moscow Patriarchate in 1686.” Bishop Makarios’ interesting article discusses the 1686 letter at length:
“Of course, a lot of commenters attribute this fierce oppression of the Kyiv Metropolis to the intervention of the Latins and to the intense activity of the Uniates at that time. Nevertheless, the history provides examples of consistent and saving interventions of the Ecumenical Patriarchate for the benefit of the Kyivan people and the greatest efforts of the Patriarchate to re-evangelize it, as has been pointed out above. Therefore, it is impossible to justify the letter under the ruse of opposition to the Union and the fact that the internal problems of the fiercely oppressed Kyiv Metropolis stemmed from the Latins. Moreover, a few years before, Constantinople participated in the Council of Brest (1596) that deposed the Latin-minded bishops and later the envoy of the Ecumenical Patriarch, Theophanes of Jerusalem restored the Local Hierarchy in the Kyivan Church by election and ordination (1621).” https://risu.org.ua/php_uploads/files/articles/ArticleFiles_72787_Report_by_His_Grace_Bishop_Makarios.pdf
Beryl ,
I was speaking with a bishop yesterday from an autonomous Eastern European church about their attempt to have an unofficial meeting of pan-Orthodox bishops in Eastern Europe. He read me the invitation letter, and it was very clear that the meeting was intended to be fraternal, brotherly, casual and informal (what we would term “brainstorming”), and confidential. He said a “decent” number of bishops showed up representing a range of jurisdictions, but no Russians. Before beginning, he called ROC, Dept. of External Affairs and they were uninterested.
This would suggest to me that, even though the Ecumenical Patriarch is acting as a foolish, undisciplined “cowboy,” had he not acted, the ROC would have been perfectly content with the status quo, millions of Orthodox Christian collaterals in “schism” forever. The “shepherd” abandoned the flock, quite literally, and moved on to direct the sale of vodka & tobacco. The bishop made an interesting point that many bishops in Eastern Europe support autocephaly for the Ukrainians – and have for years – but coming from the Russians, not Constantinople. Met. Onoophry may be a wonderful man, but it doesn’t change the fact that he is a hierarch of the ROC. When I asked why they have been silent, he said they fear “payback” from the ROC. This is a pro-Russian crew here Beryl – Americans & converts, go figure – and you waste your energy attempting to overcome their bias.
On the other hand, to say the Ecumenical Patriarch is solely motivated by “fame and fortune” in nonsensical for someone living in a six-block by six-block run down tenement; an old Amana freezer box outside, painted to read, “Constantinople, New Rome.” Use your illusion, volume 3. Even if he turns out to be a gold-digger, he says he’s not leaving New Rome, and the Turks, who would probably pay him to leave (so they could build condos), undoubtedly forbids urban renewal. The ROC could put an end to this in a second by being a peacemaker, but they will not repent of their arrogance. The Ecumenical Patriarch may be a “cowboy,” but the Patriarch of Moscow is motivated by pride and arrogance.
“The Ecumenical Patriarch may be a ‘cowboy,’ but the Patriarch of Moscow is motivated by pride and arrogance.”
That’s how it appears to me also. Except that I think it’s Vladimir Putin’s pride and arrogance that the Patriarch of Moscow is caving to.
Michael Stankovich,
Very well said.
Thank you, Michael, for your comment. Did the bishop tell you why “many bishops in Eastern Europe support autocephaly for the Ukrainians – and have for years – but coming from the Russians, not Constantinople”? How would it be possible for the Russians to grant autocephaly for the Ukrainians?
“How would it be possible for the Russians to grant autocephaly for the Ukrainians?”
Easy. Moscow can (and should) grant it as the Mother Church.
That was the exact reasoning of the bishops, as well as a demonstration a spirit of reconciliation.
Thanks. So, why didn’t the Russian Church grant autocephaly? Also, if at least one of the statements from the EP was mistranslated in the news, does anyone know whether the Phanar stated as an absolute that they were planning to grant autocephaly?
I feel this should be addressed.
“However, on Sep. 1, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate released a statement saying Hromadske misinterpreted the words of the Metropolitan and “deliberately or inadvertently published an incorrect translation of his speech in English.”
“In particular, instead of the original phrase: (t (the ecumenical patriarch) ‘made the decision to explore all the ways of issuing autocephaly,’ Hromadske wrote ‘decided to use all means to resolve the issue of granting autocephaly.’
In other words, no clear decision on the formation of an independent Ukrainian church has been made, the statement concluded. Instead, Patriarch Bartholomew I told Patriarch Kirill that, since April, the Constantinople Patriarchate has been exploring various options of how autocephaly could be granted to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.”
https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/constantinople-patriarch-tells-russian-patriarch-that-ukrainian-church-will-be-independent.html
Gail Sheppard, it might be true that Patriarchate Kirill asked for further dialogue regarding the historical documents. However, Pat. Kirill has now made that impossible by declaring that he would cease to pray for the EP and stopped any further hierarchical meetings or concelebrations.
Why shouldn’t Metropolitan Onuphrey be allowed to be part of the discussion?
At the Phanar meeting, Metropolitan Emmanuel was clear that the EP welcomed further dialogue on the matter and was not threatening anyone.
Joseph, are we talking about the same metropolitan who reported on Aug 31 the EP had decided to grant autocephaly to the church in Ukraine and then later said on Sept 2 that his statement in no way meant that granting autocephaly was an approved decision? If so, consider the source.
Why would you expect Patriarch Kirill to have anything to do with a hierarch who moves into his region without his permission? The EP has been walking on thin ice ever since Crete.
Joseph Lipper,
Considering the source, there was a mistranslation by the television station interviewing Metropolitan Emmanuel, and it was a doozy. Here is the article, cut-and-pasted, so I don’t mess with what is reported to have been said, and what was actually said:
“Editor’s note: This article has been updated to add the statement of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate.
The leader of Orthodox Christians, Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople, met with Patriarch Kirill of Moscow on Aug. 31 and reportedly supported independence — known as “autocephaly” — for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
“The main issue discussed at the meeting was the situation in Ukraine. You know that there has been a split for over 25 years,” Metropolitan Emmanuil, a bishop of the ecumenical patriarchate, said on Aug. 31, according to Hromadske TV.
“The ecumenical patriarch decided to use all means to resolve the issue of granting autocephaly to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. The decision was made in April. And we are implementing the decision. Patriarch Kirill of Moscow was informed about it during his visit (to Istanbul).”
However, on Sep. 1, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate released a statement saying Hromadske misinterpreted the words of the Metropolitan and “deliberately or inadvertently published an incorrect translation of his speech in English.”
“In particular, instead of the original phrase: (the ecumenical patriarch) ‘made the decision to explore all the ways of issuing autocephaly,’ Hromadske wrote ‘decided to use all means to resolve the issue of granting autocephaly.’”
In other words, no clear decision on the formation of an independent Ukrainian church has been made, the statement concluded. Instead, Patriarch Bartholomew I told Patriarch Kirill that, since April, the Constantinople Patriarchate has been exploring various options of how autocephaly could be granted to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
Ukraine has three Orthodox churches and only one, part of the Moscow Patriarchate, is recognized by the universal ecumenical church. In 1992, a breakaway church formed under the name of the Kyiv Patriarchate, which was deemed schismatic by Moscow.
The third one, the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, appeared in 1921 during the short-lived Ukrainian National Republic and declared independence from the Moscow Patriarchate. It was revived in the 1990s after the disintegration of the Soviet Union.
Since Russia launched its war in Ukraine in 2014, Kyiv has sought autonomy from the mother church in Russia to create its own autocephalous united church that would be recognized by canonical Orthodox churches worldwide.
The divide is, in part, political: Russian Patriarch Kirill has repeatedly expressed support for Vladimir Putin’s aggressive intervention in Donbas and Crimea.
In April, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko made autocephaly his political initiative, which many viewed as a populist move in the run-up to the 2019 presidential election.”
https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/constantinople-patriarch-tells-russian-patriarch-that-ukrainian-church-will-be-independent.html
Any idea how many Ukrainians belong to the UOC-KP? 44% of the population?
Correct question, how many believing Orthodox belong there. Probably no more than couple percent.
Yes, this “Orthochristian.com” website doesn’t come across as very balanced at all. I would say it’s primary usefulness regarding Ukraine is in reading what the Moscow Patriarchate wants us to believe.
Joseph (and Gail), I had forgotten that I read somewhere there were two envoys sent by the EP to Ukraine after the August 31 meeting, but that doesn’t make the rest of my statement untrue. Since I live in Minnesota and don’t have enough information to know what is going on behind the scenes, my point is that it seems wiser not to analyze based on incomplete knowledge, nor is it wise to arrive at a conclusion based on an opinion or a preconceived notion of what ***HAS*** to be true. We DON’T KNOW everything, and it behooves us to wait and see before we start shooting off our verbal guns with agendas flaring. I still recommend Bishop Makarios’ long and informative paper, linked to above.
“I still recommend Bishop Makarios’ long, erroneous and misinformative paper, linked to above.”
Fixed that for you.
Well, Beryl, go look for it. It’s there.
OF COURSE, discussions have taken place in the past but no one is attributing recent developments to “the Latins.” For the EP it’s about (1) the desire to remain relevant and (2) money. For Poroshenko, it’s about (1) the desire to get Ukraine into NATO and (2) the confiscation of 12,000+ parishes and 250+ monasteries belonging to the MP.
Poroshenko has been quite clear his main interest in obtaining autocephaly is “for reasons of national security”. He has a point, because his country is basically in the midst of civil war between the Ukrainian army and pro-Russian separatists. Some people say that Poroshenko’s government was illegal, but even so, it’s still the government of the country. In the Divine Liturgy, we pray for our government and armed forces, whether we like them or not. I assume that Orthodox Christians in Ukraine are then praying for Poroshenko’s government and the Ukrainian army. It would be wrong if they weren’t.
Ukrainian autocephaly will probably give legal reason for some properties already deeded to the government to be confiscated. However, Poroshenko has said that most parishes will have the right to stay in the Moscow Patriarchate if they choose by 2/3 vote. At any rate, that still sounds like a dismal situation for those in UOC-MP, and there will probably be bloodshed over this, but I don’t believe there is any good reason for bloodshed. In the words of Patriarch Kirill on the Sunday of Orthodoxy:
“Among us even today appear, from time to time, false teachers who tempt the people with the call to save Orthodoxy, to save its purity, and who repeat that dangerous, sinful, and contradictory slogan, ‘Orthodoxy or death.’ In the eyes of such people you will not find love; in them burns the demonic fire of pride, the striving for Church power, and the destruction of Church unity.”
These are wise words by His Holiness.
“Some people say that Poroshenko’s government was illegal, but even so, it’s still the government of the country. In the Divine Liturgy, we pray for our government and armed forces, whether we like them or not. I assume that Orthodox Christians in Ukraine are then praying for Poroshenko’s government and the Ukrainian army. It would be wrong if they weren’t.”
What loyalty or deference, let alone prayer, is due an illegal government (which, btw, it is)?
Gail, Do you KNOW what the representatives sent to Moscow by the EP talked about? Have you read online, or were you THERE, in the meeting with them? Do you KNOW the EP is “about” money and “the desire to remain relevant”? You have great faith in your Orthodox beliefs, and yet you stated without question that His Grace Archbishop Attalah Hannah supports terrorism. This is as false a statement as can be, except for your untrue statement that President Assad gassed his own people which is just as false, regardless of your reply or retort, as the case may be. If you were THERE, then you could have the authority to say you know, but you weren’t there.
What if lives are at stake? What if these Patriarchs KNOW what they are doing? Heaven forbid the Patriarchs know what they are doing!
I wanted to correct my spelling of Archbishop Theodosios Atallah Hanna’s name and provide a link to his Facebook page. Note that one of his recent posts contains photos of His Grace in Jerusalem at the Church of the Holy Resurrection.
“Somehow, it causes me to tremble…”
– Translation of comment (as is) below the photos:
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008958515234
“the service of divine mass at the middle of tonight and that is inside the holy grave in the church of resurrection in old Jerusalem where our orthodox church celebrated the great saint’s souvenir in
This service was presided over by Archbishop Atallah Hanna, Archbishop of. Orthodox, shared by Archbishop walk of the Russian Orthodox Church, with more than 150 priests and u involved.”
Yes, Beryl, I DO know what the EP’s envoy talked about. They talked about where they were going to live; like at the Kiev Monastery of the Caves.
The EP was purportedly promised a certain sum and received less than half. – His desire to remain relevant is evident. READ what he has written.
The Greek Patriarch of Jerusalem fired Hanna for supporting Palestinian terrorism and the UN and the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) said that experts are confident that the Syrian Arab Republic is responsible for the release of sarin at Khan Sheikhoun on 4 April 2017. You’re entitled to your opinions but not everyone shares them.
I said I was not a fan of Hanna and told you why. With regard to Assad, I said he either gassed his own people or was too weak to stop it. Either scenario is plausible and both make him look bad.
I agree that the patriarchs know what they are doing. It is the EP who is out of step and it was evident last fall. Just try and find Waldo in these pictures: https://mospat.ru/en/2017/11/29/news153369/
Balance in most cases is an egalitarian code word for there is no truth.
Sure, I guess that’s why Fox news dropped the “fair and balanced” from their moniker. They should just call themselves Pravda!
The depths of delusions are breath taking:
“FILARET IN WASHINGTON: PREPARED FOR PUTIN’S PROVOCATIONS
If the Ecumenical Patriarchate recognizes the UOC-KP as a canonical Church …. the struggle between Moscow and Constantinople for primacy in the Orthodox world will end, and the church of Moscow will revert to its proper status as a daughter of the church of Kyiv [sic].”
https://risu.org.ua/en/index/expert_thought/authors_columns/asorokowski_column/72727/
Isa,
Good riddance to all of these people: The CP and the Ukrainian schismatics. This is precisely what eucharistic discipline is for and Moscow should exercise it, as well as any other local church with a conscience.
Autocephaly or no autocephaly, either way, the U.S. has been planning for some time on going to war with Russia via an Ukrainian battleground.
Let’s suppose that no autocephaly is granted, the U.S. would still back Poroshenko in an heightened Ukrainian civil war against the pro-Russian separatists backed by Moscow.
Even without autocephaly, the Ukrainian civil war is going to flare up, and it will primarily be “Orthodox Christians” fighting each other. This is not about conservative vs. liberal, or traditional vs progressive. It’s about national sovereignty vs. Soviet-era Russian nationalism. The U.S. is taking the side of Ukrainian national sovereignty.
For those who are against the civil war, for those who do not wish to stand with the pro-Russian separatists, they end up becoming a pariah in their own parishes. That’s why many in Ukraine have left canonical Orthodoxy for the schismatic UOC-KP.
And that’s a good thing? It’s worse than what you describe Joseph. You are most definitely not wrong in the geopolitical situation. However there is something deeper, more spiritual going on. And that is this: the delegimization of Orthodox Christianity in the eyes of the world. The upcoming military conflict is merely the secular proxy as to how this is to be accomplished.
Woe to those bishops who aid and abet the satanic globalists.
George,
What’s coming about through this present awful situation, is the mass media is beginning to get a sense of what Orthodox Ecclesiology is about.
The concept of a communion of local autocephalous churches is a foreign concept to most Christians. The Roman Catholics have no concept of this. They don’t understand how it could possibly work. They think that “One Church” means that everything needs to be under the Pope of Rome. And when Roman Catholics tell you about the “two lung theory” of Christianity, they don’t realize that Orthodoxy doesn’t constitute just another “lung”. No, it’s like 14 other “lungs”. This is the great strength of Orthodox Ecclesiology.
So, this is our great opportunity to showcase how Orthodox Ecclesiology works. This is going to be in the news big time. Some will point fingers at the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and some will point fingers at the Moscow Patriarchate, but only when they both work together in a council will this mess be resolved.
I believe that either the Emperor or the Ecumenical Patriarch are required to call a council of all the local churches. Personally, I’m not sure how much longer the EP will last before it’s squashed by Erdogan, so I’m hoping the Orthodox Emperor will show up soon. I believe he will.
At any rate, the days of Vatican hegemony are numbered. When people get an understanding of Orthodox Ecclesiology and how it works, the “Roman Catholic” empire will fall apart. I believe Roman Catholic Archdiocese will eventually start asking for autocephaly.
Please excuse me for posting this here as I wasn’t sure where to post. Below please find an article from today in The National Herald. Unfortunately, the article is locked and doesn’t appear in its entirety. I will continue to be on the lookout for the article in its entirely, and if found, I will post.
End This Archbishop Drama
By Antonis H. Diamataris October 9, 2018
https://www.thenationalherald.com/215871/end-this-archbishop-drama/
Below is the above article from The National Herald, which has been posted in its entirety on the OCL Facebook website.
End This Archbishop Drama
Source: The National Herald
By Antonis H. Diamataris
BY WEBMASTER ON OCTOBER 9, 2018
GOVERNANCE & UNITY ESSAYS,
GOVERNANCE & UNITY NEWS
http://ocl.org/end-this-archbishop-drama/
Below please find an article from Sunday on the OCL Facebook website.
“They refuse to find a reasonable solution to cure the schism”
Source: ECUMENICAL PATRIARCHATE PERMANENT DELEGATION TO THE WORLD COUNCIL OF CHURCHES
BY WEBMASTER ON OCTOBER 7, 2018
GOVERNANCE & UNITY NEWS,
GOVERNANCE TOP STORIES
http://ocl.org/they-refuse-to-find-a-reasonable-solution-to-cure-the-schism/
Important interview, thanks for posting g the link. “The Ecumenical Patriarchate proposes autocephaly in Ukraine not as a “weapon” to declare war or divide Orthodoxy, but as “medicine” to cure a schism that has lasted for thirty years. After the independence of Ukraine in 1991, all the bishops of the Orthodox Church in Ukraine, under the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate, had already asked the Patriarch of Moscow for autocephaly in 1991 and 1992 to prevent the proliferation schisms. Unfortunately, the Moscow Patriarchate did not want to grant it, and this only aggravated the situation. During these thirty years, the Moscow Patriarchate believes that in order to achieve the unity of the Church, schismatic communities must return to its jurisdiction. This policy of return is similar to the ancient policy of the Church of Rome which gave birth to Uniatism. Today, the reality is that there are millions of Orthodox Christians in Ukraine who do not want to be under the jurisdiction of Moscow for understandable reasons. Therefore, the unity of Orthodoxy must be saved by applying the canonical economy and through the grace of God.”
Waiting for the armchair American self-appointed pundits to tell how wrong, heretical, schismatic, devilish and heretical he is, since they know so much more than he does.
Below please find an article from tomorrow on the ekathimerini.com website.
WEDNESDAY OCTOBER 10, 2018
COMMUNITY 11:14
Crunch time for the Archdiocese of America
CONSTANTINE S. SIRIGOS
http://www.ekathimerini.com/233341/article/ekathimerini/community/crunch-time-for-the-archdiocese-of-america
Below please find another article from today on the ekathimerini.com website.
WEDNESDAY OCTOBER 10, 2018
NEWS 19:05
Greek church set to rebuff Russian call for talks on Ukraine in Orthodox rift
LEFTERIS PAPADIMAS
http://www.ekathimerini.com/233446/article/ekathimerini/news/greek-church-set-to-rebuff-russian-call-for-talks-on-ukraine-in-orthodox-rift
It would be better if the Slavs and Greeks had different confessions and did not need to interact with each other at all. The Ukrainians in the West of the country are more like the Catholic Poles and fit in with them better.
This should be Bartholomew’s Kavanaugh Moment when everyone acknowledges that the emperor has no clothes. But the political bs is equally deep in the “canonical Church” as it is in Washington.
If Russia put its cards on the table, alleging both schismatic, uncanonical interference as well as heterodoxy within Constantinople, it could seize this historic opportunity to liberate Orthodoxy from the Phanar and raise Alexandria to first among equals.
It should do so.
Misha, it sounds like you are advocating some type of Unia for Western Ukrainians and Greeks?
Where will this Unia come from? Pope Francis has made himself very clear that he is not interested. Pope Francis is a Vatican II kind of guy. He’s not interested in Unia.
If we want to discuss “papism”, look no further to the recent absence of ROCOR bishops from last weeks SCOBA meeting. There weren’t allowed to attend because Patriarch (Pope?) Kirill won’t let them.
Why is Patriarch Kirill centralizing a Russian Church Outside of Russia around himself? Isn’t that papist globalism?
Joseph Lipper
If you want to continue to be an EP fanboy, be my guest
The rest of us have had quite enough
Especially after all of this
Billy, if I am a “fanboy”, then I am a “fanboy” of both the Patriarch of Moscow and the Patriarch of Constantinople. I don’t believe there is any need to take an exclusive side on this. Both have their valid reasons, and I believe God will provide the resolution of this at a future council of all the local churches.
All the heads of the autocephalous Orthodox churches have valid reasons for disagreeing with the Ecumenical Patriarch. It just points to the need for a future council, and by God’s mercy it will happen. I suspect the next council will be the Triumph of Orthodox Ecclesiology.
Joseph Lipper
That is a very trivial way of looking at it
Below please find an article from today in The National Herald.
Elder Ephraim at St. Nicholas in Ground Zero and Luncheon with the Archons (Vid & Pics)
By Theodore Kalmoukos
October 10, 2018
https://www.thenationalherald.com/216046/elder-ephraim-at-st-nicholas-in-ground-zero-and-luncheon-with-the-archons-vid-pics/
Greatly Saddened
In case you missed it
Also in the National Herald:
Gandhi attends an MMA tailgate BBQ
What the heck is going on??
Billy Jack Sunday … I can always count on you for a laugh. Thank you so much for your wit. I find it so refreshing. As always, God bless you and your family!
Below please find another article from today in The National Herald. Unfortunately, the article is locked and doesn’t appear in its entirety. I will continue to be on the lookout for the article in its entirely, and if found, I will post.
Patriarch Bartholomew Undecided on Fate of Archbishop Demetrios
By Theodore Kalmoukos
October 10, 2018
https://www.thenationalherald.com/216078/patriarch-bartholomew-undecided-on-fate-of-archbishop-demetrios/
I’m rather glad to hear that. Leaving aside the fact that the GOA has imploded since the forced retirement of Iakovos, the fact remains that it may be through the offices of Arb Demetrios that an authentic autocephalous (and united) American Orthodox Church can be birthed.
George Michalopulos
“the fact remains that it may be through the offices of Arb Demetrios that an authentic autocephalous (and united) American Orthodox Church can be birthed.”
Perhaps you are right
However, would you mind elaborating on this please?
Allowing for speculation, how do you see this possibly coming about through Archbishop Demetrio’s leadership?
What things could come about to cause this to happen?
Thanks and I will take my answer off the air
Below is the above article from The National Herald, which has been posted in its entirety on the OCL Facebook website.
Patriarch Bartholomew Undecided on Fate of Archbishop Demetrios
Source: The National Herald
By Theodore Kalmoukos
BY WEBMASTER ON OCTOBER 10, 2018
GOVERNANCE & UNITY ESSAYS,
GOVERNANCE & UNITY NEWS,
UNCATEGORIZED
http://ocl.org/patriarch-bartholomew-undecided-on-fate-of-archbishop-demetrios/
Below please find an article from yesterday on the Byzantine, Texas website.
Tuesday, October 9, 2018
Greek Archdiocese asks itself how effective it is
http://byztex.blogspot.com/2018/10/greek-archdiocese-asks-itself-how.html?m=1
We can only hope and pray that one day there which will be one united and autocephalous Orthodox Church here in the USA. One that is truly “Christ centered” rather than, “culturally and ethno centered.” As the saying goes … from your lips to God’s ears.
Below please find an article from today in The National Herald. Unfortunately, the article is locked and doesn’t appear in its entirety. I will continue to be on the lookout for the article in its entirely, and if found, I will post.
Analysis: What a Shame!
By Theodore Kalmoukos
October 10, 2018
https://www.thenationalherald.com/216110/what-a-shame/
Below is the above article from The National Herald, which has been posted in its entirety on the OCL Facebook website.
What a Shame! St. Nicholas National Shrine at Ground Zero
Source: The National Herald
By Theodore Kalmoukos
BY WEBMASTER ON OCTOBER 10, 2018
GOVERNANCE & UNITY ESSAYS,
GOVERNANCE & UNITY NEWS
http://ocl.org/what-a-shame-st-nicholas-national-shrine-at-ground-zero/
Below please find an announcement on the Ecumenical Patriarchate website pertaining to the Holy and Sacred Synod which convened from Tuesday through today.
https://www.patriarchate.org/-/communiq-1
Below please find an article from yesterday on the ekathimerini website.
ALEXIS PAPACHELAS
A crucial decision for Hellenism in the US COMMENT 10.10.2018 : 21:39
http://www.ekathimerini.com/233457/opinion/ekathimerini/comment/a-crucial-decision-for-hellenism-in-the-us
Below please find an article from today on the Byzantine, Texas website.
Thursday, October 11, 2018
The Ecumenical Patriarchate has passed point of no return
http://byztex.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-ecumenical-patriarchate-has-passed.html?m=1
Prior to Patriarch Bartholomew’s 2008 visit to Ukraine (ten years ago!) at the invitation of the Ukrainian President Yushchenko, the EP sent a delegation to meet with Filaret.
The envoys of the Ecumenical Patriarch visit Ukraine
https://day.kyiv.ua/en/article/day-after-day/envoys-ecumenical-patriarch-visit-ukraine
Even then, Metropolitan Emmanuel refers to the Ecumenical Patriarchate as the “Mother Church” of Ukraine.
Below please find an article from today in The National Herald.
Ieronymos Refused to Meet with Bartholomew
By Theodore Kalmoukos
October 13, 2018
https://www.thenationalherald.com/216411/ieronymos-refused-to-meet-with-bartholomew/