I realize that some of our readers aren’t all that concerned about Pope Francis’ Synod of Synodality. After all, we’re Orthodox.
Understood.
That being said, we can’t forget that four of our bishops attended the opening ceremony. They, too, are part of the “Synod.” Because of this unfortunate stunt, we Orthodox are involved to the degree that Bartholomew has obligated us to these objectives. He has positioned himself front, center with Bergoglio so I think there is reason there to be concerned.
I realize of course that Patriarch Bartholomew can’t (and doesn’t) speak for the entire Orthodox Church, we all know that. However the rest of the world doesn’t. That’s why I called it a “stunt”, it’s a PR move, designed to give the impression that Bartholomew is the Supremo Leader of the Orthodox Church.
Patriarch Bartholomew presided over the Divine Liturgy which took place at the Orthodox Church of Saint Theodore in Rome. When concelebrating with a few of cardinals, he mentioned his reunion with Pope Francis just before the beginning of the Synod of October Catholic Bishops. https://orthodoxtimes.com/patriarchal-horostasia-at-the-orthodox-church-of-saint-theodore-in-rome/
Everyone at the table, which included nuns, Anglicans, Lutherans, and Catholics concelebrated with Bartholomew. Speaking about the Holy Spirit does not mean we forget our focus on Christ, they explained. On the contrary, the Holy Spirit makes Christ present among them all, as he did in the Eucharist which they all celebrated together.
They want one united Christian Church that can be leverage by the globalists to change the teaching of the Gospels, emphasizing some things and downplaying others. The Holy Spirit is being hijacked in order for Bartholomew and the other confreres to focus on our “responsibilities” toward climate change and new international laws that are in the works, laws created to enforce globalism.
The framework moving forward was expressed through an announcement which read as follows: “We cannot discern together without praying together. This is why I invite everyone to keep the inner disposition and fruits of the retreat in their hearts. To help us do this, over the coming weeks we will experience other moments of common spirituality, and each day we can celebrate the Eucharist together next door, in St. Peter’s Basilica, in the morning, before the beginning of our sessions. ”
I guess I didn’t realized we were moving forward with wokness, LGBT+ and same sex marriage. That, and celebrating the Eucharist with the pope and Catholic bishops seems like something they should be deciding across the Church within an Orthodox context. I guess he thinks it doesn’t matter what the rest of us believe. https://www.synod.va/content/dam/synod/assembly/0410/01_CG_03_Relazione-Relatore-enerale_S.E._Hollerich_ENG.pdf
The following is deserving of your attention. If you substitute the name Bergoglio with the name Bartholomew it will all make sense from an Orthodox perspective. Same plans. Same circles. Sharing the same gifts.
Vigano’s insights on our combined state are spot-on. This is not a sermon as much as it is a jeremiad. It concerns the spiritual state of his Church, as well as what is going on in the temporal sphere. (At the risk of repeating myself, he could just as easily have been speaking about the Patriarchate of Constantinople.) He calls a spade a spade; the clarity with which he speaks is refreshing.
For this alone, I ask you to listen to Vigano.
As we move forward, we would be well to remember his words: “Obedience to God comes before obedience to man.”
Did Bartholomew really celebrate the Liturgy with these people? Did he pray with them? Aren’t both of these things blatantly heretical? And I’m not throwing that word out lightly. If we pray, particularly in a public service setting, with nonOrthodox, isn’t that heretical and grounds for being deposed or possibly excommunicated?
DITTO!!!!! Do you really mean “concelebrating with a few of cardinals” according to Orthodox nomenclature? As if the actions of Constantinople in Ukraine were not heretical enough, it is time for “Local” Orthodox Churches to start kicking Constantinople’s butt!!! This monarchical/tyrannical and disrespectful behavior towards the Church must be stopped!!!
I wish you were bishop. 🙂
Gail, are you talking about Nich or me?
I was talking about Nich because of what he said about “kicking Constantinople’s butt” which only the bishops can do, but I’d be happy to have you, too! You have always been on the right side of things.
Well I’m married so that would be an issue. Regardless, trust me, I would NOT be a good bishop. Maybe Nich could pull it off.
In any case, this whole thing sucks. We have enough problems in this world and all this is just hurting our witness. And Constantinople has been a staple in the Church for 1700 years. It was the bishopric of St. John Chrysostom for goodness sake. And now to see this great see going into apostasy like Rome did is so sad.
At least the apostasy in Rome was resolved. Bartholomew won’t leave.
One can choose to be upset by these things or choose not to be. In order to choose the latter, it helps if your local church has already excommunicated Bartholomew and Co. so that his actions do not “rub off” on you and there is a record of your condemning his actions and pseudo-faith.
As far as we are concerned, this is all occurring outside the Church, which is par for the course. It may not be until Bartholomew formally proclaims a Unia that we can completely anathematize the Fanar, et al. But we have done what we can to draw a bright line between us. Bartholomew does not speak for Orthodoxy but rather for the antichrist.
A Greek Orthodox Archdiocese priest told me, just after the Tomos was given to the OCU, that he and the fellow clergy he’d talked to had heard nothing at all “through channels” about what was unfolding in Ukraine. Patriarch Bartholomew took this action while leaving his own clergy in America in the dark—a very strange way to supposedly add a whole new autocephalous church to the sisterhood of Local Churches!
He wouldn’t have listened to his priests even if they tried to talk him out of it, if that is any consolation. But, yeah, it’s crazy they didn’t know.
His brother bishops did know and did try to talk him out of it or at least have a council which he refused to call. Bartholomew didn’t care what anyone thought. He’s on record saying, “They’ll get over it.”
And now he’s overtly communing with the Catholics and has joined their “synod” such as it is. He’s not telling anyone that, but effectively that’s what happened.
Our bishops need to understand this is causing great hardship for the laity. Some of our own are going to be confused. I would prefer not to have that on my conscience if I were them. – I think they’re waiting for the war to be over. They may not be able to wait that long.
Umm, you said that the EP presided over the Divine Liturgy; and then you say that he co-celebrated with Papists, Protestants, etc. Which is it? There’s a big difference…
The pictures show the EP at his throne on the soleas, and not wearing vestments. Thus, no possible co-liturgy with heretics. Try another slam, maybe pick on the Serbs who seem to have had a bishop part of this co-celebration too?
Actually, no, there isn’t a difference between Papists and Protestants. You know why? Because they are both non-Orthodox. The Canons of the Church forbid us to participate in non-Orthodox religious services and to engage in common prayer with non-Orthodox and with those who have been officially condemned as heretics by the Orthodox Church.
There are multiple pictures. Scroll down and take a look: https://orthodoxtimes.com/patriarchal-horostasia-at-the-orthodox-church-of-saint-theodore-in-rome/
This is what it says this in the first sentence of the article: On the 2nd Sunday of Luke, 1 October 2023, the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew presided over the Divine Liturgy which took place at the Orthodox Church of Saint Theodore in Rome, joined also by Metropolitan Polykarpos of Italy, and representatives of the Roman Catholic Church and many faithful.
It is the Church that is getting slammed.
So who are you going to defend? The Church or the EP? It stings, I know. You don’t think we feel like we’ve been punched in the gut, too?
The EP left the Church, my friend.
“The Canons of the Church forbid us to participate in non-Orthodox religious services and to engage in common prayer with non-Orthodox and with those who have been officially condemned as heretics by the Orthodox Church.” Spot on. I recall how much loving and insightful advice I received on this blog after I shared that I had been asked to participate in my niece’s bat mitzvah. There was an outpouring of quotes from the canons, Church Fathers, etc., and I did a lot of my own research too, which supported your quote above.
He’s been doing this in Rome a lot lately, doesn’t it seem? https://orthodoxtimes.com/pope-francis-and-the-ecumenical-patriarch-at-the-ecumenical-prayer-vigil/ Honestly I love Taize chanting but even I know better than to go to a Catholic Church and chant Taize side by side with the Pope.
They’ve been “praying” regularly together for several years.
Thank you for saying this, Christine! I thought you might be the same person. I have been praying for you. God bless you for standing firm in the Faith!
Crossing myself at receiving your blessing, Father. It is so easy to be caught up in the swell of feel-good emotions that ecumenism promises, and to this day I have to wrestle with myself often. Thank you for your prayers.
Christine, as difficult as it was (you were so gracious, too), can you even imagine how many people you touched with your story and how many you helped to better understand the Church? More than you will ever know. You were doing God’s work that day and you “done good,” as my mother used to say! Thank you, Christine.
This is the miracle of how the Monomakhos family helped my family. My niece did have her bat mitzvah, and continued being involved in her temple with a lot of their social and charitable events. When with me, she practically begged to get to our church early. Our small ROCOR parish welcomed her to stand next to me in the choir so she could follow along and understand what was being sung. She was particularly moved by watching people go through confession during and after All-Night Vigil. Fast forward to this past Pascha, when she asked to stay with me for the weekend and “watch”. Can you imagine my emotions as I watched my teenage niece stand for hours in a dark corner of our little church as she listened to us read our way through Acts, and then as she was moved to walk to the Tomb of our Lord and kneel in front of it? After processing around the church and then entering that sacred, light-filled space, she was belting “Christ is risen!” with the most beautiful smile on her face and in her eyes. My niece has since told me that she plans to be baptized in our ROCOR parish at the age of 18 when she leaves home. There are a lot of challenges in her way, but I think Gen Z is radically different than Gens X and Y in that they are tending towards a new counter-culture. Her friends tell her she is super cool.
Imagine if I had given in to my feelings of wanting to please my sister’s family and been accommodating and went along with her bat mitzvah like I did with my other niece (her older sister)? It was harsh and hard at the time, but the reward has been a ongoing dialogue with my niece–not a dialogue based in ecumenism but one based on my conviction and testimony of the Cross.
So again, as always, thank you to the Monomakhos family!
Christine, that’s what we’re here for!
Christine, some would say that praying in the synagogue as you did would mean you needed to be re-chrismated. I personally do not know what the truth is here, but it might interest you to ask around and get some advice. Of course, if I’m wrong about this, I apologise.
I have never heard that.
Hi, Dan. I was! As soon as I figured out what I did wrong, I confessed immediately. My parish priests consulted our Bishop, who then consulted our Archbishop. I was instructed to go through what was truly the most beautiful and humbling experience–it was a prayer service for purification of one who’s gone thru apostasy but is returning to Orthodoxy. It included chrismation. My priests, my husband and I bawled our eyes out, each of us feeling the fire of shame for our role. After we cried, we laughed at the entire scenario. Orthodoxy has been my life for more than two decades. I’ve sung in the choir, taught Sunday School, been on the parish council–and I had done something terribly serious but didn’t even know it! Here I was thinking that chanting the Psalms was great, no matter where it was done.
I can testify that if you have ever participated in a prayer service at a non Orthodox function, please confess it now. If you’ve fallen for the shiny lie we are told by well-meaning Orthodox who say it’s ok to pray in Catholic churches, in Protestant churches, in mosques, temples, synagogues, they are lying to you. Please talk with your priest and confess. The Church has already lovingly prepared for you the most healing and compassionate remedy in that prayer service of purification.
Okay, I see your Archbishop came down on the side of strictness. I wasn’t aware that chrismation was needed unless you had willfully abandoned the faith and joined Judaism, which doesn’t appear to be the case.
That being said, what do we make of the famous priest and author who said on this very site, that praying the Psalms in Hebrew in synagogues was one of his greatest joys? Does or did his bishop bless this? I didn’t see one priest, bishop,or even deacon call him on it. And the late Bishop Tikhon appeared to give his approval….he certainly didn’t condemn it.
Thank you, Father. I will just write this last comment about this since there is so much important dialogue happening on this site about the wars. Bottom line was that I was asked to search my heart thru fasting and prayer, and determine if I had knowingly and willfully contributed to and supported the conversion of someone to a faith other than Orthodoxy. My answer was yes.
I do recall what you are mentioning, and I think that is why I get so upset when I see outspoken folks like Sr. Vassa, OCA seminary faculty, priests, even patriarchs throw their support behind ecumenism. The line between what’s innocent and what is soul-damning is a razor’s edge.
Thank you so much for your kindness. Asking your blessing.
No, Dan, not at all. Praying in s synagogue is against the canons , but she did not convert to Judaism. Plus, she found out it was wrong and stopped doing it.
Now if someone actually joins a non Christian religion, chrismation would be in order. There was a lady from Central Asia, one of the former Soviet Republics. She had converted to the church from Islam. If I remember correctly, she returned to the homeland and was found to have cancer. Allegedly she was refused treatment unless she reverted to Islam. What I do recall is that when she got back to the United States, she sought to rejoin the church and the bishop required chrismation. He also warned that if she were to continue to go back and forth, her soul could be in jeopardy.
I’m afraid that some Internet zealots are putting the rest of us traditionalists in a bad light. People prayed for Christine, she came around, and her niece is inspired by her example to convert. Let us thank God for that.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts Fr/Solidarity Priest. That there are differing views on this is, of course, no surprise. If I can, I’d like to get your thoughts on something else, as it’s related, and anyone else who would care to chime in – their answers perhaps going towards helping me further my understanding of Orthodoxy, as I begin to try and define the line between fanaticism and traditionalism.
My grandparents were both baptised Orthodox as babies. After migrating as adults to a non Orthodox country, they met each other, got engaged and then were married in an Anglican church, and had their children christened there, too. This was done because 1. There were hardly any Orthodox churches in their new country, let alone where they were living. 2. If there was an Orthodox church in their area, they might not have gone because of political reasons. 3. They were only simple village people and it’s possible they thought the Anglican church was the Orthodox Church, only in English. 4. They were taught as children that the Romam Catholic church was wrong and they at least made an effort to avoid it.
According to two Orthodox sources, who I can’t decide if they’re fanatics of just traditional, my grandparents apostasised, didn’t properly repent, and now can’t be commemorated as Orthodox. According to one other source, who I can’t decide if they’re traditional or just a bit slack, what my grandparents did, wasn’t so bad and they can be commemorated as Orthodox.
Thank you.
Words like “apostatized” can mean a variety of things. In your grandparents case, their Orthodox journey was unintentionally interrupted and they were exposed to teaching that was not Orthodox which needs to be fixed.
Within the Church, there is a remedy to fix just about anything in an effort to help the person get on the right path to salvation. This is true in the case of your grandparents. If they are still alive, they need to pick up the phone and make an appointment with a local priest so it can be fixed. No condemnation.
If they have passed, the Church is not without remedy.
When I was first becoming Orthodox, a guy on the Internet had an uncle who had not lived a Christian life, let alone an Orthodox one. He had been a communist in Germany. He was in the process of dying and not having an easy time of it. Though he was unconscious, he was crying and thrashing around in terror. His sister was beside herself. She wanted peace for her brother. I wanted to help but I didn’t know how. A friend of mine in the Church told me to write to all the Orthodox monasteries and ask them to pray for him. I think I gave them each $5.
Within a week, that man’s torment stopped and he passed peacefully.
***
There is only one thing the Church can’t fix. It can’t fix the people who are unwilling to follow the prescribed way of doing things in the Church. It’s the people want to fix things their way, who think those of us who are traditionalists are fanatics.
Might be of interest: https://www.stnicholasstratford.org/files/articles/MissionLeafPDF_Proskomedia_Commemorations_Prosphora.pdf
Thanks a lot Gail for the response and the article linked.
My grandparents passed away many years ago. My priest says they can be commemorated as Orthodox during the Liturgy (though I’ve never taken him up on that offer because of the following) while two monasteries have said that they will only pray for them as non-orthodox.
I’ve taken the view that the latter is correct, and yet I’m interested in hearing different views, given my growing awareness of how Orthodoxy isn’t so black and white.
Not being too strict or too slack is a very, very subtle thing, but I’m hoping to learn how to think and be the right way, in so far as it would be possible for me
Your priest can exercise economia. I am not an expert on economia but when I’ve seen it exercised by priest, it’s an act of love motivated by God Himself.
If God were to tell a little fish to fly to the other side of the pond to find food, the little fish might say, “But how? It is not permitted for me to fly. You did not give me wings.” This, of course, is true. Fish were not meant to fly. But what if God sent a pelican who opened it’s mouth and said to the little fish, “Jump in. I’m your ride.” No rules would be broken. Pelicans are permitted to fly. – It is within the providence of your priest to offer you this gift without disturbing the good order of the Church. Take it!
https://orthochristian.com/101172.html#:~:text=%E2%80%9CAnyone%20who%20wishes%20to%20show,of%20the%20Lord%20with%20the
How good! I love what you’ve said. I love the article you linked me to, especially the part about God looking after whole lineages just because of one convert. And I love how flexible or nuanced or whatever the word is that Orthodoxy can be. Thanks heaps!
Beautiful story Gailina. (But why should I be surprised?)
Dan, FWIW, I know of two families (one Greek, the other Lebanese) that immigrated here in the 20s. The Greek family was in Iowa and the Lebanese in Oklahoma. Both of them went to the local Episcopal churches because there were no local Orthodox parishes around.
I imagine this was more common than we think.
Indeed, George. This story applies to many people in my family
Follow the advice of your priest, let the monastics govern the monastery. It can only help your grandparents, not hurt them.
I would not consider it economia so much as a judgement call as to the intention of your grandparents. Did they actually intend to apostatize? They avoided the RCC, after all. This is a story shared by many Greeks I’ve met who attended Episcopal parishes when there was no Orthodox parish near them. Evidently, in the mid-20th century and before, it was widely (though erroneously) considered the same thing, like a Western Orthodox Church. And back then the case was much easier to make based on the preservation of the form of holy orders and general morality.
Moreover, there were actually local Orthodox churches which made statements ambiguous enough to be interpreted (again erroneously) that Anglican Orders were “valid” (which is Western terminology and also misses the point regarding grace).
This may very well have been their mindset and may be the rationale behind your priest’s decision. But regardless, you are under your bishop who has the power to bind and loose within his synod, not under the monastics. So you are covered in any case, at least on a matter this inconsequential. If you are at the monastery and they say not to commemorate, then that is their prerogative. At your parish, at least under these circumstances, it is that of your priest and bishop.
However, IMHO, if your priest is ok with it and his bishop is ok with it, that should allow you in good faith to offer their names anywhere without explanation for commemoration just like anyone else (unless they already know the story and have already made their decision, like the monastics you asked). There’s no reason to carry the story around with you and perpetually explain. That would be a Western mathematical like mindset. FWIW, that’s what I would do.
That’s a great run down of things, Misha. Thank you very, very much for that. It helps to put away any doubts that might creep in as I now try to change my way of thinking in the Church. I’ll speak to my priest again soon, ask him to speak to the bishop, and then my grandparents might well be able to be commemorated as Orthodox everywhere. What a sweet turn of events. I’m so pleased to have brought this up here. Many thanks again to you and everyone else who helped!
None of the Catholic priests, bishops or cardinals in these photos are vested to concelebrate. They are in cassocks. There is a Cardinal in choir habit, which one would not wear to celebrate or concelebrate
How interesting. What would Catholic priests, bishops and cardinals be doing in an Orthodox Church during a Divine Liturgy? Do they just commune like everyone else? Do they stand there looking on?
No. The position of the Catholic Church is that we would like to be in full communion with the Orthodox Church. That, of course, is not the Orthodox position. Orthodox faithful are admitted to communion in the Catholic Church, but we counsel them to obey the direction of their priests. Catholics would be free to receive communion in the Orthodox Church but we admonish them to respect the prohibition of the Orthodox Church. Catholic priests,bishops and Cardinal s at an Orthodox liturgy would pray with everyone else but not receive communion. They are wearing their cassocks as an expression of respect and good will,
In my second parish, twenty five years ago, there was a very devout elderly lady who struggled to Mass every day, walking with difficulty with a cane, receiving Holy Communion daily. Once in a while she would be late, and she was happy that I noticed her and gave her Communion from the Blessed Sacrament reserved. On one occasion she wanted a small icon blessed and in conversation i found to my surprise that she was Romanian Orthodox. But she obviously found great consolation in daily Communion.
The Catholic priests in the photo are not concelebrating — they would be wearing Mass vestments, which correspond to what your priests wear for the Divine Liturgy. Nor are they in choir habit — a surplice (short white vestment falling to the knees with wide sleeves) over the cassock, which we would wear if we were assisting at Mass but not concelebrating. As far as I know we are forbidden to concelebrate (exercise the priesthood to join in consecrating the Eucharist) with clergy not in communion with the Pope.
The Cardinal in the photo is in choir dress, bright red. But hey, if you are a Cardinal you might as well let everybody know it!
Thank you, Fr for the clarification.
Presiding at a Divine Liturgy is not at all the same as celebrating. It was NOT a hierarchical Divine Liturgy – the pictures clearly show a priest and deacon (I assume they’re Orthodox) liturgizing. The Patriarch was, I’ll repeat, on his throne on the soleas, not liturgizing (or “celebrating”) in the Altar.
Further, you even admit that the Divine Liturgy was in an Orthodox Church: how is that participating in a non-Orthodox service? Plenty of non-Orthodox enter our Orthodox Temples, even during services, does that mean that we’re engaged in “common prayer” if they are in our Church?
You can accuse the EP of many things that most in GOA will agree with you on, but in this instance your accusations are false and misleading.
No one is accusing anyone of anything. I am quoting an article in the Orthodox Times, otherwise known as “Bartholomew’s mouth piece.” He wants you to know what he’s doing which is why they’re telling you so you won’t misunderstand. Read the first sentence: “. . . the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew presided over the Divine Liturgy. . .” What you think is going on is completely immaterial.
Time to move on.
Agreed.
Let’s be honest here: it’s clear what Bartholomew’s intentions have been for the better part of a decade. If anything, they’ve only gotten clearer as each day goes by. Like many in the globalist community, he’s getting ready to cross the Rubicon. Some have already crossed it, others are close behind.
On a technical level you are correct, there was no concelebration. Concelebrations occur at the altar by definition, and as Bart wasn’t vested, it was simply in his presence. He presided but did not
The cardinals were not even sitting in thrones, although they were facing north in the solea area, which is normally reserved for participating clergy.
All that being said, Bart is taking a page from Francis: say and do what is technically correct, and then whatever he wants afterwards. Play word games. Be vague. The church has technical and clear ways to express things, but don’t use them.
The aim is to confuse the faithful and break down their understanding of the faith.
I know a parish that had a very lax, culture club priest for 40 years. When he retired and a new priest came, he found most of the people under age 50 didn’t even know you had to fast before the Eucharist, much less at other times. Confession, what was that? This priest never told them not to fast, but he also never formed them correctly in the faith.
It takes effort to so thoroughly strip Orthodox Christians of their faith and praxis. That is what Bart is doing, by being vague and unclear.
Each day, we are bearing witness to global anarchy. Shame on the holy pulpits for playing along with reptilian forces.
https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/pope-francis-opens-door-to-blessing-same-sex-unions
It’s vital to stay grounded in one’s heart. We are being bombarded with hatred through various mind control schemes. Find ways to stay grounded.
Might I add a bit of news. NYC mayor is tickled pink with his new virtual abortion program. All one has to do is contact the virtual online clinic to get a pill that will abort the baby by mail! These virtual abortion pills are good for pregnancies up to ten weeks! Anyone from anywhere can have their abortion. pill mailed to a NY residence address and voila! ABORT!
Why am I not surprised? Telemedicine. Wonder how they know how long the pregnancy’s has been going on? No sonogram. I guess they just take the woman’s word for it.
Exactly. NYC has gone insane.
I read the article a couple of times and I took the “reunion” statement as Bart saying he’s back in Rome and seeing Francis again, at least that’s what I got from it. I didn’t take it as reunion as in Orthodox-RC union. But, there very well could be subtext bc we all know Barts plan.
As for the concelebration, there were def RC cardinals at the Liturgy but I don’t believe they were concelebrating at the altar with Bart, if that had been the case it would be plastered all over the Orthodsphere since official concelebration would be a massive breaking point for a lot of folks.
Definitely a couple of bad grapes for sure, but thank God this isn’t even probably .1% of the hundreds(thousands) of Orthodox bishops in the world.
Also, IIRC there were Orthodox bishops present at Vatican2, my hunch is that on the surface these few Orthodox bishops who showed up because it’s a synod on “Synodality” which is the Orthodox form of governance….the great irony behind that is that Bart ignores his brother bishops.
I’m a 0% fan of Francis but surely he can’t be stupid enough to believe that Bart is the “pope” of Orthodoxy and speaks for everyone. Even if Bart projects himself that way doesn’t mean that anyone except a few Bartholomite Fanariote sycophants believe it. I still believe the OCU was a litmus test for a possible reunion and that obviously failed.
If the Synod of the Russian Church were wise it would hurry and release its “errors of Constantinople” paper that was recently published and that they have said they will disseminate in different languages to the various local Churches. Strike while the iron is hot.
As for Vigano, well, even though the things he says are “based” he’s still a prelate within a heretical and schismatic structure. These words by Fr. George Goodge, a priest in the Antiochian Archdiocese, are very relevant:
“I regularly see traditionally-minded Orthodox people opposing and expressing concern regarding modernistic ecumenism, and this is right, but what we also need to watch out for is what I’ve sometimes called “Based Ecumanism.” Based Ecumenism is when Orthodox people (even priests!) will publicly forward heterodox figures because they say things that the listener considers to be “based” or “trad.”
He goes on to name two people specifically, a Nestorian priest and Archbishop Vigano
This isn’t an indictment on Monomakhos or anything like that.
I don’t think a lot of people know this, but Bartholomew was one of the principals at the beginning of the synodality process for the Catholic Church. He and Francis were looking for ways to mitigate the “primacy issue.” The Orthodox obviously do not want a pope. Period. End of story. So they searched for a way Francis could introduce the term “synod” and make it meaningful for the Catholics. That way he could say, “Look Orthodox people. We’re like you. We’re a “synodal” church, too!”
Only our Holy Synods are not meetings. We don’t discuss multiple ways to change the Church. They are for bishops or their delegates and not just any bishops either, patriarchs. And we’ve been doing this a very long time. We’ve been known to be pretty good at it, on occasion.
Francis, however, is new to this. He opened up his synod-think to 20-somethings, as I recall. Not clergy. Their primary qualification was they were young. This was, of course, a can of worms because then women thought they should be on the synod. He sent one nun off with instructions to “study” the matter of ordination, which she did only to be put off when she presented her case. –He does that a lot. Francis puts people off. –But in the end, the women prevailed in so far as getting the attention of a “synod” of 18,000 who gathered for the occasion; miscellaneous people who had no idea how to proceed when it comes to women priests, blessings for gay marriages and repentance without repentance, let alone how to be a synod. How could they? They’ve never done this before and these things represent changing the church. . . a lot.
When Bartholomew called it a “reunion” I believe he meant the event itself, as he was one of the original “synodality members.” He said in 2008:
It is well known that the Orthodox Church attaches to the Synodical system fundamental ecclesiological importance. Together with primacy synodality constitutes the backbone of the Church’s government and organisation. As our joint International Commission on the Theological Dialogue between our Churches expressed it in the Ravenna document, this interdependence between synodality and primacy runs through all the levels of the Church’s life: local, regional and universal. Therefore, in having today the privilege to address Your Synod our hopes are raised that the day will come when our two Churches will fully converge on the role of primacy and synodality in the Church’s life, to which our common Theological Commission is devoting its study at the present time.
There’s more about becoming one church at: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/evil-is-eradicated-by-holiness-not-harshness-3640
Of course, he doesn’t want to specifically say he was involved. Using the term “reunion” is sufficiently ambiguous. The pictures made it impossible to deny, however. To make this fly, Bartholomew’s presence was required by his global overlords. The problem is, the more and more the Catholics get into this synodal business, “Francis style,” the further and further they get from the teaching of the Church. How is Bartholomew planning to address this?
And while Francis is seated on a white throne in the middle of a group, which included a female Lutheran minster and the head of the Anglican Church, Bartholomew stood there looking uncomfortable and tired. It was a long meeting.
If Bartholomew thought he would be an “Eastern Pope,” he was mistaken. No throne for him to sit on. He stands, without power, on the left. There can be only one pope and that’s Francis. Everyone else is window dressing, including Bartholomew.
If all of this is indeed true then IMHO, good. If Bart has concelebrated and communed with Roman Catholics then that draws a very clear line in the sand rather than his constant wishy-washy approach to union.
I hate to say I would be happy because we should never be happy by the loss of a soul but Bart FINALLY leaving for the Rome will be a huge win for Orthodoxy.
It will also finally draw a clear line in world Orthodoxy, in Orthodoxy here in America, and especially in GOARCH and the Ephraim monasteries. I’ve mentioned before that I was told by a priest-monk at St. Anthony’s that a union with Rome would be the final breaking point for them.
I do remember. – I agree completely.
RE: ““I regularly see traditionally-minded Orthodox people opposing and expressing concern regarding modernistic ecumenism, and this is right, but what we also need to watch out for is what I’ve sometimes called “Based Ecumanism.” Based Ecumenism is when Orthodox people (even priests!) will publicly forward heterodox figures because they say things that the listener considers to be “based” or “trad.”
I would caution against repeating pithy declarations even if they come from a priest. When we feature what Vigano says, it is not to “publically forward” him. We know nothing about him!
We know his voice. That’s it.
I do know something about your friend, though. I know from what you said he is an Antiochian priest who labels people.
He is ignorant, though, and could probably find a better use of his time.
Everyone was created in the image of God, including traditionally-minded Orthodox people who hold to the teachings of the Church. We are not opposed to anyone! We are opposed to changing the Church. There is a difference.
God gives wisdom generously to all who ask without finding fault. That would include Vigano. You might want to share this with your friend.
It’s a good thing Christ is forgiving and doesn’t write people off who label another a “prelate within a heretical and schismatic structure.” However, it will probably ring a bell, as that’s what the Pharisees said about Him.
If you can find fault with anything Vigano says in terms of what we’ve presented here, we’d love to talk about it as that’s what this blog is for. But because he’s Catholic? No. He’s not spewing Catholic doctrine that interferes with our teaching.
I don’t know Fr. George even remotely, I just saw that quote by him posted on an Orthodox Instagram page.
That’s why I was saying this isn’t an indictment of Monomakhos (who I almost never disagree with 🙂
But I have seen other Orthodox pushing and promoting Vigano and Mar Mar Emmanuel because they say things that are “based”
It might seem to Vigano that Roman Catholicism is going through an unprecedented apostasy, but to us Orthodox, Rome has been in a mass apostasy for centuries and this is just an apostasy from an existing apostasy..
It’s fine, Petros. – I don’t recall actually meeting him, but if it’s Fr. George Washburn, we go way back. Nothing we do pleased him and after a while, we just stop trying.
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Nah this is Fr. George Goodge who is based in New York state I believe.
I did a brief look into him and he seems to be a vocal opponent of the current cultural zeitgeist of the West.
When Vigano speaks sense, we commend him.
When he doesn’t, we don’t.