The schism I am referring to is the incipient schism within the Church of Greece.
From our friends at www.orthochristianity. . .
Lord have mercy.
The Holy Synod of the Church of Greece announced today an extraordinary convocation of the Bishops’ Council will be held on Saturday, October 12 to discuss the Ukrainian crisis and the issue of whether to recognize the “Orthodox Church of Ukraine” (OCU) created by the Patriarchate of Constantinople last November, reports Romfea and the Orthodoxia News Agency.
The hierarchs will gather in a regular session tomorrow through Friday. It was previously reported that the Ukrainian issue was not on the agenda for the regular session, though it was speculated that His Beatitude Archbishop Ieronymos of Athens and All Greece would raise the topic outside of the official agenda, which led to debates in Greek media about whether such a thing is even permitted by the statutes of the Greek Church.
However, Abp. Ieronymos decided instead to simply convene an extraordinary session of the hierarchs on Saturday, after the regular session.
The topic on the agenda concerns a recommendation by Abp. Ieronymos entitled, “Information on the Autocephalous Church of Ukraine.”
Recall that in late August, the Greek Holy Synod “recognize[d] the Ecumenical Patriarch’s canonical right to issue the status of Autocephaly,” and also recognized “the privilege of the primate of the Church of Greece to further deal with the question of recognition of the Church of Ukraine.”
The Archbishop’s recommendation is presumably based upon the recommendations of the two commissions set up by the Holy Synod in March to examine the Ukrainian issue. It is believed that both committees recommended recognizing the autocephaly of the OCU, though there have been conflicting reports on the matter. It is known that the hierarchs of the Greek Church are divided on the matter.
It is also known that the Greek hierarchs are under an extreme amount of internal and external pressure to recognize the OCU.
https://orthochristian.com/124475.html
Not good news.
Another schism in the Greek Church. The Freemasons just can’t tolerate the Greek Church. I hipe and pray it does the right thing and NOT recognize the Ukrainian schismatics. If it does not it will precipitate another schisim in the Greek Church. Lord have mercy!
Peter A. Papoutsis
Well ok, Peter, you DO admit that the Masons are a problem, then? I was basically told to shut up by one of your fellow Greek Americans, when I complained about Masons not just in the Greek church, but in the Serbian church as well.
I’ve said before; both my late spiritual father, Hieromonk Kallistos, and my current spiritual father, Fr. Stavros, came from the GOA. Fr. Kallistos left the Serbian church over a Masonic funeral. Fr. Stavros is anti-Mason. He is possibly near death and not given to speak lightly of such matters.
Further, we were told by one professor in seminary to turn Masons away from the chalice. And we’re talking OCA here, not ROCOR.
Secretary of State Pompeo was visiting Athens this past weekend. He even attended Divine Liturgy Sunday at the Metropolis in Athens. I wonder why he was there? Hmmmmm……
No doubt Pompeo is putting pressure on the bishops of Greece. You’ve got to wonder what they have on these guys.
I think the West is trying to clear the path for Bartholomew to unite with Rome and Greece has to side with Bartholomew on Ukraine to make that possible. You unite the Orthodox Church with Rome and we become ***Christianity on steroids***! You’ll start seeing all these early Church specials on the History and Discovery channels directed at the disenfranchised Episcopalians, Protestants, Evangelicals, etc. of the world to get them to think, “Wow. This must be the TRUE church. I want in.”
Only it won’t be Christianity. It will be a faux religion like what you see in Disneyland where everything looks real but isn’t. Francis and Batholomew will become the new EF Huttons. When they speak, everyone will listen. I can hear them now: “As Christians, it is our duty to pass all legislation that protects the environment. We must commune the LGBTQRSTUVW, forgive all child molesters because it is their sexual preference, and let migrants into our respective countries from anywhere for any reason. But MOST importantly, we must support abortion up to the due date (or X number of days beyond) so women can get on with their lives and not be bothered with a child.”
Imagine leveraging something like that! (I bet Pompeo has.)
No. No. No. Please do not complicate a very simple situation with theological balderdash. Look, here’s the deal. This whole debacle is a east versus west conflict, a Western Alliance versus Russia thing. The political strategy of the West is to isolate Russia and its allies as much as possible. Drawing the proverbial line in the sand in Ukraine just suits the geopolitical needs of the times. Religion (to the godless) is just getting in the way. Religion is a tool to be used. We are just seeing the geopolitics of the 13th century repeating itself, except the Crusaders don’t need to overthrow Constantinople. Why fight when they can be bought so cheaply? The ruthless and immoral politicians will use any leverage available to further their goals. The powers that be don’t care a fig about the uncanonical situation in Ukraine…it is a tactic to further their goals. Getting to Greece to go along with the situation just furthers the bigger picture. Getting Constantinople to cozy up with Rome furthers the western alliance and further isolates Russia and the slavs. From our Orthodox perspective, what is transpiring has a much different meaning, but to the unfaithful, it’s ugly business as usual!
George, if it was just about amping up the nationalists and giving them a church to rally around, it would be game over. Whether or not Greece supported Bartholomew wouldn’t matter. So how do you explain Pompeo’s presence in Greece? He’s there because he hopes to influence the Church of Greece’s decision with regard to Ukraine. Why would he want to influence the Church of Greece’s decision? Because it determines how much of the Church Bartholomew will take with him on his way to Rome. I honestly believe Pompeo, et al. want to leverage the relationship between Rome and the Orthodox Church. If the two merged, Russia’s influence would diminish (or so they believe). So, it’s not Russia, the country, they want to contain. It’s Russia’s influence on the world that concerns them and they seek to cut it off at the root. The root of Russia is God’s Holy Church. So, yes, it’s about isolating Russia, but not geographically.
(My apologies to all for using the reference of cutting off the head of a snake. I wish I had found a better choice of words before I first published this. One of the benefits of being an editor is that I can go back and fix things.)
Gail, I wish I could say you are wrong, but I’m afraid you are right on target. I just wish you wouldn’t use the snake metaphor to describe Russia. The bear is the right symbol; you provoke a real bear, he could reach outside of his cage and pull your arm off. That actually happened to a drunken lady at a zoo, she burned the bear with her cigarette through the cage.
We should not view the current conflict in the church as a battle between Slavs and Greeks. I’m sure you and George don’t, but some others posting here might. That’s a trick of the evil one; to divide us. The Ottomans played Greek against Slavs and Albanians; the Hapsburg Austrians played Hungarians against Slavs and Romanians. May God preserve us in the struggle that lies ahead!
Greeks and Albanians do a pretty good job of hating each other on their own. At some point Orthodox Christians need to stop being SJWs and blaming all their enmity on somebody else, and realize there is genuine hate within Orthodoxy that willingly lets the gates open for others. This doesn’t necessarily mean letting the devil in. Sometimes it means letting the adults into the room
Fr indeed. I myself have been unwittingly prepped for the battle when I left the GOA to join the OCA several years ago. Nobody in my extended family could understand why I would “want to go worship with Russians”. (There were no Russians or Slavs in our mission at first, nor was our bishop –the Blessed Dmitri–anything but a good old boy from East Texas.) I received a lot of pushback shall we say.
The irony of course is that some of my critics are themselves unchurched.
Gail….The term I used was “geopolitical” meaning the ideological split evident between the west and east, not “geographical” implying a simple issue of physical location. My point is that religion is clearly being used as a tool by both the west and Russia to further political goals. I think everyone agrees with that. The issue as I see it is that Constantinople has been chosen by the west as its hobby horse to promote its political agenda and Constantinople is so theologically bankrupt is it very willing to go along because (a) it needs the money and (b) it promotes their own cockamamy notion of their imperial importance. You’ve got a Constantinopolitan hierarchy infatuated with their own self-ordained importance and the western powers stroking that ego and reinforcing their non-canonical notions. This is just really bad Kabuki theater on a global scale!
Very true.
So very true
Peter A. Papoutsis
george o.
“The term I used was “geopolitical” meaning the ideological split evident between the west and east, not “geographical” implying a simple issue of physical location. My point is that religion is clearly being used as a tool by both the west and Russia to further political goals.”
If you read Canon 28 (4th E.Syn.) carefully (plus the interpretation) you will realize that the whole reason of giving some additional honor or function to the Bishop of Cple was really a political-cum-geographical reason! The Bishop of the Capital City of the big Christian country had some extra coordinating functions. Period. No dictator, no holier person, not infallible.
Jerusalem, the real First Church, with St. Jacob the brother of the Lord, the real “Mother of Churches” (Tone 8, Sat. evening) was put aside, for that practical political-cum-geographical reason! But not for the ages to come! The Russians have realized that they NOW have the largest de-facto function as in ancient Constantinople.
Bartholomew, understandably, does not want to let go of his “Glory”. Glory or Gloria (Doxa) is according to St.J.Chrysostom the very beautiful female which is a constant temptation to the Bishop and will make him fall into sin!
That is why the Golden-Mouthed Saint refused to become a Bishop, and was ultimately literally kidnapped and made Bishop by force! Is that like nowadays?
Everyone must pray for the Church of Greece. If they surrender…and recognize the CP’s schismatic abomination…they will destroy themselves from the inside out.
Amen Mikhail ~ praying for them. If they do surrender, I pray other Local Patriarchs, the Monks of Mt Athos, and the Elder Ephraim monasteries will speak and act decisively and courageously to oppose that surrender and remedy the situation. Lord have mercy.
I’m guessing Pompeo’s visit was not coincidence.
…The CoG says it’s not going to discus Ukraine…Pompeo visits…CoG changes its mind
If the above is indeed the case, the I think the outcome may have already been decided, why else would they change their mind at the last minute?
IMHO this is just another tactic to get to Russia. If the CoG ends up recognizing the schismatics structure in Ukraine, then I’m guessing the Russian Church will cease commemoration of the CoG as well. I’m sure the goal is to knockout/manipulate each patriarchate like dominos. After Greece, will Pompeo be in Belgrade, Damascus, Alexandria?
Maybe we will be surprised and they will stand up for the faith rather than cave to the pressure, but, I’m guessing at the very least they will do a “conditional” acceptance of the Ukrainian schismatics.
George, what say you?
I pray that the Greeks acquire the necessary cojones to tell the globalists to pound sand.
I’m afraid the fix is in however.
Menas, first Athens, then SKOPJE: https://orthochristian.com/124548.html
If people can’t see what’s going on, then it’s willful ignorance.
Well, if the CoG can’t see this, then they’re hopeless. And all subsequent caterwauling come from the govt of Greece about “Macedonia” will fall on deaf ears.
We have separation of Church and State in this country but I guess that doesn’t apply when the State Department decides to interfere with the Church in other countries. Under the guise of “religious freedom,” they’re funding schematics. When is Pompeo going to stand up for the rights of the Orthodox? Never. Our Government is at war with the Faith and the country committed to protecting it. They’re not alone either. Most of the world hates the Church and everything it stands for. The MP has made multiple appeals to the United Nations to intervene in Ukraine and stop the violence toward the Church in the name of “religious freedom”. Each time it has been ignored. Religious freedom only applies if it is against the Church. And it’s not just Greece that needs to decide which side they’re on. We have to decide, as well. If we don’t stand up for the Church, who will?
I remember telling my kids, “Don’t go near the Oleander bush. It has pretty flowers but if one of them winds up in your mouth, it’ll kill you.” “Don’t go near the cute little bear cubs because their mother is nearby and thinking you’re a threat to her cub, will rip you to pieces.” “Don’t go over to the house on the corner where the man gives out candy and toys to the kids. He is bad and could hurt you.” As a parent, I had to be diligent to protect my children. The Church is no different. There is a REASON the Church puts a “schismatic” label on a person or group who leaves the Church. When one chooses to live outside the Church, they are not protected and become a petri dish for errors. Some of them are not always apparent until further down the road either. Look at what happened to the Roman Church. It began with the idea of a bishop being the pope (first without equal). After the split, other errors began to emerge, e.g. dispensations, indulgences, purgatory, etc.
This whole thing with Ukraine was to open the door for the OCU to unite with the Unia and then for the broader Church to unite with Rome. What Francis and Bartholomew want is “unity with diversity.” This two-parent couple is trying to birth a child that will not be a replica of either. And because Uncle Sam has a vested interest in their offspring, it will be unlike any “church” we’ve known to date. Francis and Bartholomew won’t be able to stop it. They’ll be confined to the attic and their offspring will be some kind of kumbaya hybrid where everything and anything goes. The impact on society will be devastating. Suicides, attempted suicides, and suicidal ideation is already significantly higher with LGBT youth when compared to the general population. If it were solely because of discrimination, we would have expected to see a drop in the rates as the behavior becomes more and more acceptable in society. That has not been the case. There is something intrinsic to the lifestyle that makes one more vulnerable to self-destruction. It is also becoming less and less important to have two-parent families. 31% of families today are headed by single women. Criminals (who are typically male) are more likely to have grown up in a single-parent household. That doesn’t make women bad parents but it does demonstrate the need for men to be engaged as parents in the home. Fewer and fewer marriages are even producing children, which is also alarming. – This is a long way of saying that values the Church promotes are there to protect us and they are being eroded. The Church just may be “Custer’s last stand” when it comes to protecting society against total collapse. I am not overstating this.
No, you are not overstating it. Not at all.
If I may go off on a slight tangent: I just read where two Philly 76er fans were thrown out of the stadium because they had “Free Hong Kong” signs. Then there’s the entire NBA imbroglio in which they immediately kowtow to the Red Chinese. This is not really a tangent but a symptom of the societal collapse you speak of. We Americans are no longer the resolute breed of people who could stand up to greater powers in the name of freedom. We lost that will to live thanks to a variety of factors (some of which you touch on).
Now back to Greece: instead of being stalwart and standing up to Pompeo and the globalists, they’re going to cave. Why? Many of these men are weak. Some are compromised (and we all know that “compromised” means). Others are liberals along for the ride or are simply apathetic. However, for the Greeks (except for the liberals and atheists among them), this will be a bitter pill to swallow when Pat Bart and his Western janissaries start gobbling up the other local Churches.
A question: is it possible however that Pompeo overplayed his hand by meeting surreptitiously with the schismatic Macedonian archbishop? I hope so.
Gail, most of your comment I agree with, but: We have separation of Church and State in this country but I guess that doesn’t apply when the State Department decides to mess with the Church in other countries. Under the guise of “religious freedom,” they’re funding schematics who are openly hostile toward the real Church. has a questionable premise. We do not have “separation of Church and State in the U.S. We have the State ruling over the Church and threatening her at every turn deemed possible. That is without regard to whether the politicians are Republican or Democrat.
The “separation of Church and State” has taken on the meaning that the State can do whatever it wants and the Church is powerless to object and if anyone tries to act in accordance with the Christian faith, they will be prosecuted beyond the fullest extent of the law. There should be no public expression of any Christian’s faith unless it agrees with the political orthodoxy. Even though the 1st Amendment was specifically designed to protect the prophetic voice of Christians from being silenced by the Federal government it has been twisted to just the opposite.
What the State Department is doing is nothing new, it is more egregious than anything done in the past but that is likely my own ignorance. I do not believe that the cynical and despicable actions of the State Department are carried out without the knowledge and consent of the President with a nod of approval from his VP. The faith tradition of which Vice President Pence is a part does not believe, really, that we are Christians. In fact the heathen Russians need to be converted. The same attitude of the “Christian missionaries” from the United States had when they descended on Alaska to “save the Natives from perdition” even if that entailed ripping families apart and destroying a vibrant Christian civilization.
The Democrats hate us openly, the Republican pols despise us silently–we are so far beyond the pale of modernism that at best we are a barely living anachronism that can be exploited for political gains but has no other worth. Just, what Jesus told us would happen.
Unfortunately, the actions of the State Department are only to be expected. The willingness of the EP to cooperate is shameful however.
The so-called separation of Church and state was a phrase in a letter that Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist Association. It had nothing to do with governance. Indeed, Jefferson fully intended for the Church to be involved in the affairs of the state, the extent that it could influence the state.
As usual, a member of a secret society (in this case the KKK) assumed a civic pinnacle and got his hands on the levers of power (SCOTUS) and in 1942 turned the First Amendment on its head to wreak havoc on the nation. The agency he used to do this was a made-up religion (the JWs). The Justice’s name was Harlan Black.
Yet another reason that if I had to do it all over again, there could be no secret societies. No matter how patriotic they start out to be, they eventually get infiltrated by agents provocateurs and taken over.
True story: one of Woodrow Wilson’s chief advisors was a man named Col House. He was reputedly a member of the Klan. It was he who helped in the creation of the Federal Reserve.
It’s best to wait until the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Church of Greece express themselves on this issue. The Orthodox Christian world and everyone else can register their reactions then.
Speculation in the meantime is unhelpful.
Meanwhile, Bartholomew was awarded the plaque of St. Eric’s by Archbishop Antje Jackelén in Sweeden. He made sure he told them he is “first among equals among Eastern Orthodox bishops and serves as the primary spokesperson for the Orthodox communion”. https://www.lutheranworld.org/news/ecumenical-patriarch-bartholomew-honored-church-sweden
Oy gevalt!
Has this extraordinary session been confirmed by any hierarch in the Church of Greece? So far all we have is a whole bunch of articles quoting the original “Exclusive!” article from Romefea who has done this sort of thing before.
What is so Telling is what Pompeo said to the Greeks.
“Take Russia, which undermines the sovereignty of your neighbors. It tries to stifle religious freedom for many Orthodox believers”.
There is no pretence in hiding it anymore it is all out in the open. It is nothing more that the State Department project to create a “Orthodox” church more to its liking.
https://www.rferl.org/a/pompeo-greece-defense-pact-nato-turkey-russia-iran-china/30201427.html
Fr Phillips had this to say on his blog Orthodox England.
Meanwhile, the Phanar’s incoherent and schismatic head, Patriarch Bartholomew, yesterday met Pope Francis and the head of the Ukrainian Uniats in Rome to discuss merging the Uniats with his tiny and failed OCU organization in the Ukraine. A joint Phanariot-Papist Galician Synagogue of Fascist Ukrainian xenophobes may soon be formed there, uniting all haters of the Church of God. It will be financed by the State Department in Washington, which has already sent out its ambassadors in the Balkans to bully and bribe Local Churches into recognizing the Galician Synagogue. In this they failed.
http://www.events.orthodoxengland.org.uk/the-centre-can-hold-because-of-the-cleansing-of-the-church/
I think this will fail too but many tears will be shed over it I’m Afraid.
Christ made a promise and it is him who heads the Church, not LARPers in vestments. Old men thinking they can protect their comfortable living by cooperating with anti-Christian forces. That my dear brothers and sisters has failed in history too. My homeland as a example.
I got Fr Tryphon’s blog post this morning and it gave me hope. I recalled what my Baba told me often when the Church acts not so churchly that even in the darkest days of the Soviet Union and all looked forlorn that out of those ashes was a spark, an ember of holiness left still. It produced the greatest Saints Confessors and Martyrs of the Orthodox faith. We Orthodox ALL share in the persecution of Christs Church be we Russian, Greek, Serb, Arab or whatever nationality we are ONE in CHRIST!
https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/morningoffering/2019/10/strife-and-division/
“Take Russia, which undermines the sovereignty of your neighbors. It tries to stifle religious freedom for many Orthodox believers”.
Wow! Now Pompeo is spouting bold faced lies!
He wants to start a war. So far, Trump hasn’t taken the bait.
Indeed. The screaming from the Establishment that was emitted the other day when he ordered a troop withdrawal from Syria was frightening to behold.
These people really, really, really want America to be involved in wars wherever and whenever. It’s almost as if my entire memory of Hollywood/Academe/Dem Party being anti-war during and after Vietnam was a hallucination.
Somebody please remind me: what there ever an anti-war movement in the US?
P.S. I am not a pacifist. Just a neo-isolationist. Think of me as a heavily armed dove.
Starting up a new war in Syria means de facto starting a war with Russian (you already knew this I’m sure)
It all ties in together, isolate Russia religiously and in Syria, start a war with Russia and crush them.
Im a bit iffy on prophesies from saints (maybe due to my days as an RC), but, I think there is a prophecy or two about this
In the end, if the rumors are true that Killery is going to run again, and God Almighty forbid she actually wins (through massive fraud I’ll add), then you can bet war with Russia is a guaranteed
The left was never anti-war, just “anti war against fellow leftists”. All of the New Leftists who were SDS and all that business ended up becoming some of the most aggressive hawks during the bombing of Serbia, they just cast it as “now we’re in WWII saving Europe from Hitler mode” when its convenient for them. It’s easy to play geopolitical war games when you live in a geographically isolated nation with megabucks for aircraft carriers and have a professional army that pays for college tuition. It’s like a gamble: get free college and there’s a good chance you won’t die. Easier to get wars done that way versus a draft. As far as the Church of Greece is concerned, I say pray for a miracle. Because that’s what it will take. I’m imagining they will try very hard to find some third solution, like recognize the schismatics as clerics of the EP as opposed to autocephalous clergy (sort of like the EP treats the OCA today).
I know, I was being sarcastic. The Communist Party USA was all for going to war against Hitler until Hitler signed a non-aggression pact with the USSR. Then all the Hollywoodies became America-firsters within 24 hrs. Then when Herr Hitler invaded Uncle Joe, they became American “patriots”.
Pompeo is making his rounds and checking it twice Mikhail.
Do check out the links in the article.
https://orthochristian.com/124548.html
I like that phrase “LARPers in vestments”!
There was a gamer kid who lived above me explained it to this old guy George.
I thought it was quite fitting for this situation “Live Action Role Play “Adults in costume acting out a fantasy game.
How recognizing the Autocephalous Church of Ukraine will affect the future of Hellenism
by Nadia Bazuk
What will happen when some of the bishops in Greece (if even only a few) do not agree that the Church of Greece should recognize the schismatics in Ukraine? It is certainly no secret that some of the Greek bishops do not think well of the EP’s relationship with Rome. Four days and counting……….
God bless the Hierarchical Council of the Church of Greece! You all should stop your bickering and slandering of the Ecumenical Patriarch, who has the canonical right to hear appeals from foreign clergy and grant autocephaly. After all, the Churches of Russia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Poland, Romania, Greece, Albania, Czechoslovakia, and Georgia received their autocephaly unilaterally from the Church of Constantinople (which is the Holy First Throne of Orthodoxy).
As for the right to hear appeals and pronounce final judgment:
“…And if a bishop or clergyman should have a difference with the metropolitan of the province, let him have recourse to the Exarch of the Diocese, or to the throne of the Imperial City of Constantinople, and there let it be tried” (Canon IX, Fourth Ecumenical Council).
“…And if any one be wronged by his metropolitan, let the matter be decided by the exarch of the diocese or by the throne of Constantinople, as aforesaid…” (Canon XVII, Fourth Ecumenical Council).
“…the primate of Constantinople… possesses the right to observe the disagreements arising within the limits of others sees, to correct them and to pronounce the final judgment over them…” (14th Century Byzantine canonist and monk Matthew Blastares, Syntagma Π, 8. Cf. Rhalle-Potle, vol. 6, Athens, 1859, p. 429).
“…Is the chair of Constantinople entrusted with the judgment of all causes of the other Churches? and is it from that chair that every ecclesiastical question must obtain its final settlement? This privilege belonged formerly to the Pope of Rome before he split himself off from the Catholic Church by arrogance and voluntary malice. But he being now split off, all the causes of the Churches are referred to the chair of Constantinople, and receive from it their decision, as that chair has equal privileges, according to the canons, with those of elder Rome…” (1663 Tome of the Eastern Patriarchs, Chapter VIII).
The right of the Ecumenical Patriarch to hear appeals, which the Holy Fathers granted, is still a canon law of our Church, regardless of your hatred of the Great Church of Christ. These Canons were not limited to the existence of the Byzantine Empire nor were they repealed. They are still in effect. Good day to you all.
With love in Christ,
Gregory
Gregory, you do realize that these canons were written during a time when there was a Byzantine Empire.
Gregory also neglects to mention those canons which forbid joint prayer with heretics, not to mention Jews and pagans. I guess the canons are in force only when the Patriarch feels like enforcing them. And no, I don’t “hate” the EP. I feel sorry for him. But I’m not going to follow him blindly without question. If I felt the need to be Uniate, I could be the genuine article, without going through Constantinople.
As Met Jonah said 11 years ago in Dallas: “If we wanted to be under the Pope, we’d be under the real one”.
My feelings exactly. And personally I much prefere Francisco to Bartholomaios BUT I AM ORTHODOX.
I am facinated how the USA gov has suddenly aquired an interesting take up of Orthodoxy and its worship.. Most touching I am sure. Pass me the sick bucket.
Solitary Priest,
Axios! Worthy!
I don’t think I’m worthy. I just don’t care for this game playing with the canons. Moscow, in her day, also violated the canons. I’m not in love with everything about the MP. I have a problem with the title,”Our Great Lord and Father Patriarch Kyrill”. My understanding was that that title ‘Great Lord” was given to Patriarch Nikon by Russian Tsar Alexis. I also understand that the Patriarch never permitted that title to be used in church.
But having said that, one can’t fail to take into account the rebirth of church life in Russia. At the same time, we can’t ignore the EP’s abuses. Perhaps someone smarter than me can explain to Mr. Mortiss that indeed Bartholomew is his Patriarch, like it or not. Anyone who is a communicant of any diocese under the EP, has Bartholomew for Patriarch, like it or not. If anyone feels that he or she can simply belong to an EP church and somehow stand apart from it’s Patriarch, such a person is either seriously deluded, or else a Protestant at heart, picking and choosing what parts of the church to incorporate into their individual lives.
Solitary priest. I agree with you. They have all used and abused the canons and I am not keen on Kyril as see him as a political and unspiritual figure , but when all said and done what Phanar is doing and how, is plain immoral and worldly and done to wound Russian church and expanding Phanar power and money making and its claims are openly papal and delusional in Terms of modern reality. And what have politicians, of any hue, got to do with the running of our Church?
The entire event detracts from Christ.
Solitary Priest, I really value you as Axios, Worthy.
I therefore have a delicate question to you and it might even take 2-3 exchanges of msgs to complete it:
:
Assume that I live on a remote island.
There is one Orthodox bishop and a few priests with their parishes.
“My” bishop, alone, decides to commemorate the schismatics.
:
Question to you:
What do I do?
(1)Carry on going to this church on the island and receive communion?
(2)Not go to church until I die.
(3)other?
Assumption: I cannot leave the remote island.
Honestly, I cannot answer that. In the old days, when ROCOR was out of communion with almost everyone; there were two schools of thought. One group would say don’t even attend new calendar/ecumenist services. Still another group said, attend services, but don’t commune. I would assume if someone had faith, God would somehow provide. But that is only an assumption on my part. Sadly, I am not sure I have that type of faith. Assuming you had no contact with your spiritual father, you might try to convince those in error to repent. I suppose those Greeks in Sicily and Southern Italy faced a similar situation. After 1054, they found themselves out of communion with their brethren by virtue of being on the wrong side of the sea.
Solitary Priest,
“Honestly, I cannot answer that.”
Exactly! Can you then imagine, I REALLY consider you as Axios/Worthy and you cannot answer that, let alone somebody else whom I do not consider Axios (I have the right, don’t I?).
I was afraid it would take 2-3 exchanges of msgs to sort this out.
.
“If anyone feels that he or she can simply belong to an EP church and somehow stand apart from it’s Patriarch, such a person is either seriously deluded, or else a Protestant at heart, picking and choosing what parts of the church to incorporate into their individual lives.”
So I must do whatever my Bishop (on the island) says, otherwise I am a a Protestant at heart!!! That Bishop is not at heart Schismatic, Protestant, Papist, Syncretist, Atheist, Pagan, Heretic, etc, etc, etc, none of this or it does not matter, BUT I(!) am Protestant at heart!? Because I am picking and choosing parts.
.
” Assuming you had no contact with your spiritual father, you might try to convince those in error to repent. “
But, I would indeed have contact with my spiritual father, the best priest on the island, who, for the sake of argument is like you, or IS you, yourself. But then, he (you) says: “Honestly, I cannot answer that.”
Also, if I try to convince that Bishop in error to repent, he might even throw me out of the Church on the remote island, and no priest there would give me communion (if we assume that I should that).
SO, WHAT DO I DO?
What are all these people out there to do in virtually similar situations?
You want a short, but perhaps bitter answer? Do what St. Maximus the Confessor did. If you are unsure about the Orthodoxy of a given church, then DO NOT commune, but trust in your own faith, that God will provide for your salvation and will not abandon you if you put your trust in him. St. Maximus did not compel anyone else to follow him in taking a stand. He followed his own conscience. He cited the example of the Three Holy Youths in the furnace. They were willing to be burnt to death, rather than bow down before a king as to before God. And we see that because of their faith, God preserved them.
See, folks, this is what I mean about priests being in a no win situation. A year or so ago, a lady inquired of any priest what to do about a niece or a friend’s daughter, who was tempted by attraction to the same sex. When I responded that homosexual desires are a cruel demonic disorder, she went apesh!t on me. We are told by SanFillipo and his crowd that if we tell young people that such desires are wrong, and they commit suicide, then their blood is on our hands.
Nobody is obligated to follow my advice nor my suggestions. As far as I know, none of my spiritual children post here. I apologize if my words have been a temptation for anyone. Before I leave, I’d like to emphasize that I did not call you or anyone else a Protestant. I said IF, IF, some person claims to belong to an EP church, then it is impossible for them to claim they don’t have Bartholomew as their Patriarch. I believe Monk James and the more educated clergy posting here will at least back me up on this one statement.
Dear Father and Ioannis,
Couldn’t help but think of St Mary of Egypt.
Not that I know anything at all, but I agree completely.
By the way, and for what it’s worth, I also believe that homosexual temptations are a specific kind of demonic delusion, and that transsexuality is probably as close to demonic possession as we’re likely to see.
Now I might have to find out where St Maximus went to hide.
Solitary Priest,
thank you so much for your reply. You have indeed helped me a lot, even by making it clear: “Honestly, I cannot answer that.”
I want to apologize if I insisted and pressed you too much for a fully “satisfactory” reply with clear-cut guidelines and so on. The reason is that Bartholomew (being an expert in juggling with Canons and the green environment) is really pushing us to the end to make very hard decisions nowadays.
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BTW, I did not say that you called me a Protestant. Very briefly, I said and meant that, according to that formula, I would be a Protestant at heart IF I did not do what THAT Bishop would say whilst he might do/say any anti-Orthodox things he liked. I thought that was kinda not fair.
Thank you again.
Lord have mercy!
I have long contemplated the actions of many saints during the Arian controversy. The Arian heresy was a far deeper one than this current potential schism. As far as I can determine, no one opposing Arius recommended or went into formal schism. I do not know if they restricted their flock to communion with only certain bishops, BUT we have much more mobility than we had in the past and MUCH more information (not always a good thing). Perhaps we are too quick to reject our brethren?
It is a perilous thing to decide for oneself whether or not to commune especially out of a desire to remain “pure”. That is a no win scenario always.
If one goes up to receive in humility with a heart fixed on Jesus Christ, His mercy and Grace, repenting of one’s own sins, I would be confident that person would received Jesus Christ.
It is part of the “modern” heresy that we always have to make individual decisions about everything and those decisions determine our life. It is up to us to “seek out and expose” corruption and sin. Nonsense!!! Utter nonsense!!! That is following the law and ends up in a serious spiritual disease–scapegoating. Scapegoating is a never ending spiral into darkness and death. It cannot and will not come to good.
Even St. Augustine said, “Love God and do what you will”
It is important to get the order of that sentence correct however.
As St. Peter also told us 1 Peter 4:8 “Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers a multitude of sins.”
ABOVE ALL…..
If I cannot love a priest, bishop or Patriarch, then I should not commune for that reason. Remember also what St. John explicitly tells us in 1 John 3:14-15, those who hate their brother are guilty of murder.
So, look to your own heart as to whether you should commune in any given parish no matter who the Patriarch is. Confess your sins to your confessor. Don’t dump off that question on some poor priest who does not and cannot know your heart.
If you confess your sins to your confessor and present yourself in a spirit of love of God and love of His Incarnate Son, go boldly before the throne of grace and fear not. He is with you. If He is with you, who can be against you? His Kingdom is not of this world.
Such a path is not a “personal decision” that modernity demands, but a decision based on what the Holy Scripture and the Fathers of the Church have always taught.
If we love God with all of our heart, mind and soul AND our neighbors as ourselves, corruption will not be an issue.
Lol @ the great Church of Christ, Bartholomew has a flock of only thousands, he has brought unrepentant schismatics into the the Church of Christ, which is the entirety of Orthodoxy. You’re as delusional as Bartholomew
Dear Gregory,
The canons don’t exist for the purpose of creating schisms, that should be axiomatic (meaning rightly authoritative or that which is thought worthy or appropriate).
That is how the God fearing and Holy Fathers of the Great Church of Christ have understood them for many blessed years, in the Apostolic tradition within Holy Wisdom, mind you in a conciliar fashion, which is much different than what the E.P. has done and continues to do as evidenced by your present misunderstandings. Suffice it to say, the E.P. vehemently opposes any conciliar resolution to his set in a stone conclusions in this matter, there are canons referencing such behavior that you have not cited, for our edification.
In retrospect, the light and reflections of the Holy Bishops of the Great Church of Christ know the prayers therein with the right spiritual meaning, O Lord, save Thy people, and bless Thine inheritance! Grant victory to Orthodox Christians over their adversaries; and by the virtue of Thy Cross, preserve Thy commonwealth.
If you really are for the schism that E.P. has created (and seeks to further) then the Orthodox Christians who are against the E.P.’s schism crafting actions and going with the Papal type of dominance disposition you have articulated you will see many Orthodox Christians as your adversaries. We are against such movements, so you’ll be understanding many things in a profoundly different way than those that have kept the true faith throughout the history of the Orthodox Church, if possible see the Orthodox Christians in the canonical Orthodox Church of Ukraine these days.
We have seem that there is great danger within the schismatic corpus and those that support them, hence the many serious warnings from within the Orthodox Church for many centuries that some choose to take for granted.
In Christ,
Matthew Panchisin
Very well said Matthew.
Yes Mathew well said. God bless..
Gregory,
these canons and most importantly canon XXVIII (28) which you left out, were valid when Constantinople was the Capital of a Christian empire.
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Obviously you ignore the basis, Canon 28, altogether.
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Canon 28 literally mentions the Present Participle “βασιλεύουσα” (thus NOW reigning), badly translated by Cummings (Rudder) by the adjective “Imperial”. It does not apply to the ages to come, to the uncertain future when the City is not reigning any more. Cple has NOW no Head of State any more, he moved to Ankara. And Turkey is not the largest Christian country, it only has about 2000 Orthodox Christians. Please read Canon 28 carefully, and then its following interpretation by St. Nicodeme.
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The bishop at Istanbul can not fullfil the functions laid out in Canon 28 any more. (No Capital City, No Christian Country).
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Actually Canon 28, (whether we Greeks like it or not) is NOW de-facto more fullfilled by the MP and after 50-100 years may move to India or China.
If China converts to Orthodox Christianity, I for one will leap for joy! Same with Japan. One of our qualities as Orthodox is that we believe in baptizing entire nations and then after a prudent period of time, giving them autocephaly. That’s why I’m completely against the concept of “ukrocephaly” that is being peddled about by the EP and his agents.
It’s completely unacceptable.
This was sent to me by Nadia Bazuk, a Ukrainian journalist who writes for Veterans Today and other publications. It was originally written by Sofia Iliadi, a Greek Orthodox Christian.
https://orthochristian.com/124479.html
The thesis is that if the CoG recognizes the illegitimate outfit of Dumenko, then it will have serious geopolitical repercussions.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AP/status/1181922377673924608
I would have to imagine that Russia will not be at all happy about this
Perhaps this is the beginning stages of the prophecy of St. Paisios?
Well, Moscow and Damscus don’t want SDF in Syria because they are supported by the US, but if they attack, it’s WW3. Now, if Turkey attacks the SDF, that’s another question. Russian, Iran, and Turkey have made some deals in the background, I think, and giving an opportunity for the Turks to crush the Kurds might win some concessions on behalf of the legitimate government in Damascus vis a vis Idlib, etc., as well as clearing NE Syrian of pesky US-supported forces. Some groups in the occupied NE have already made steps back towards Damascus, so if the Kurds get broken, it might grease the wheels for further, more expansive, negotiations.
Basil, we also forget (or are not told) that several of these Kurdish groups we are allied with are dyed-in-the-wool communists. Personally, that’s not something I wanted to hear given my own sympathies for the Peshmerga of northern Iraq.
If I may continue, as far as Turkey is concerned, there will never be an independent Kurdistan, at least anywhere near their borders. Perhaps the best that the Kurds can hope for is northern Iraq becoming their national homeland and only that.
Again, look to the Russians to tease the Turks in this regard.
Possible. Then again, depending on how much resistance they give the Turks, they can press their own advantages. Remember: the Turks need to stabilize that area of Syria and put the kibosh on Kurdish independence. For the Russians, these things are not nearly as important. As long as Syria is stabilized under Assad, it’s all they need. Kurdish independence is an existential threat to the Turks.
That’s what I mean by “how much resistance they give the Turks”.
Turkey will never allow for an independent Kurdistan, but St. Paisios foresaw the destruction of Turkey, and it’s partitioning into Greek, Armenian, and Kurdish territories:
“Turkey will be dissected. This will be to our benefit as a nation. This way our villages will be liberated, our enslaved homelands. Constantinople will be liberated, will become Greek again. Hagia Sophia will open again.
“Turkey will be dissected in 3 or 4 parts. The countdown has begun. We will take the lands that belong to us, the Armenians will take theirs and the Kurds their own. The Kurdish issue is at the works.”
https://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/11/25/some-greeks-turn-to-elder-paisios-prophecies-on-russia-turkey-conflict/
Truly fascinating.
St. Paisios (from the same news item) also allegedly said this:
“Constantinople will be given to us. There will be war between Russia and Turkey. In the beginning the Turks will believe they are winning, but this will lead to their destruction. The Russians, eventually, will win and take over Constantinople. After that it will be ours. They will be forced to give it to us.”
So the Russians fight, shed blood and sacrifice their lives to defeat the Turks, and then will be “forced” to give Istanbul to the Greeks, to Bartholomew/Elpidophoros?
”Forced” by whom?
Ioan, I would like to see the original prophecy in Greek if possible before I comment further. “Forced” doesn’t seem to me to fit contextually into this sentence. After all, if Russia is able to effect the dismemberment of Turkey into “three or four parts” and conquer Constantinople, then it would seem to me that they are a hyper-power on the order of the United States and thus, not amenable to being forced to do anything against their will.
As such, I think that the word in question is a mistranslation. If not, then we would have to speculate further but that’s not exactly healthy since this prophecy has not played out as of yet.
Pompeo is now meeting with the Macedonian schismatics.
https://orthochristian.com/124548.html
Hierarchs, for the love of God, call a council and end this
You said it Menas! I am growing weary of the silence and apathy…and dare I say…cowardice!
Saint Mark of Ephesus pray for us!
Well, this was expected. “Macedonian Orthodox Church” is the asset of nationalist ex-Government. Americans go to facciliate transfer of ownership to new US installed pro-globalist Government. Another issue is to prevent any talks with Serbian Church, which so far resisted attempted American sponsored takeover. (In short some pro-Phanariote professors were removed from University Theological Faculty, but we might lose American dioceses).
I am facinated how the USA gov has suddenly aquired an interesting take up of Orthodoxy and its worship.. Most touching I am sure. Pass me the sick bucket.
I don’t recall anyone mentioning this:
https://news.antiwar.com/2019/10/06/us-and-greece-sign-new-defense-pact/
Coincidence?
https://orthodoxtimes.com/the-church-of-greece-has-recognized-the-autocephalous-church-of-ukraine/
http://www.ekathimerini.com/245445/article/ekathimerini/news/greeces-holy-synod-recognizes-autonomy-of-church-of-ukraine
Predictable
Well, it happened: https://orthochristian.com/124623.html
Let’s see how this plays out…
I wonder now if Albania will be the next to recognise the schismatic group. Thank you, Metropolitan Hierotheos. All that big talk, and you caved.
My son’s godparents just left for home. They went Greek Old Calendar after ROCOR joined the MP. How do I justify “canonical orthodoxy” to them now? Bishop A(EP) does joint prayer services with Catholics and Lutherans. Bishop B(OCA)doesn’t do that, but does allow Catholics to be godparents to Orthodox, at least under some circumstances. Bishop C(ROCOR) baptises Catholics coming into the church, again under some circumstances. And now, to confuse things even more, Bishop A and Bishop C aren’t in communion with each other, while Bishop B remains in communion with both. We know such things have happened before in the history of the church. But what do we tell our young people, even if we can even pry them from the world to keep them in the church in the first place? And I’m sure I’m not the only priest asking this question.
Solitary priest. This is the bigger disaster. What can u, I say to a young person to this pile of garbage ? Not much. I am greek and today am truly ASHAMED.
If bishop A and bishop C aren’t in communion then bishop B can’t be in communion with both of them. ROCOR consecrated Greek old calendar bishops. That’s why many Greeks in ROCOR joined the Greek old calendarists, especially the GOC under Archbishop Kallinikos. Seems like they made a soul-saving decision.
So, what is your position? Are you Greek Old Calendar or what? I don’t know quite how to tell you; while ROCOR was in communion with two separate groups of Greek Old Calendarists, they likewise were in communion with both Serbia and Jerusalem. That didn’t mean that the latter two were in communion with the Greek Old Calendarists. I’m not saying whether that was right or wrong, but it happened.
Solitary Priest
Hello Father. Apologies for this being right out of the blue. I don’t know if you remember or not, but earlier this year, during a discussion on here about the schismatics in Northern Macedonia, I was very rude to you.
Although I apologised after, the truth is that it was only half hearted, and I didn’t even have the decency to ask for your forgiveness.
Please forgive me for the terrible way I addressed you.
Well, this is not good. But I’m sure it’s according to The Plan:
https://orthochristian.com/124654.html
Michael Bauman,
“Lord have mercy!
I have long contemplated the actions of many saints during the Arian controversy. ……….”
Michael thank you so much for your post!
Several weeks ago, someone asked for confirmation regarding the State Dept’s involvement in the Ukrainian schism. Here it is:
http://orthochristian.com/122123.html
George: this post belongs to the new thread, but “Reply” has now been removed from there.!?
Seraphim of Kythira: Open Letter on the Hot Topic of Ukrainian Autocephaly.
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(Semi-automatic translation of a small part)
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This last and highly critical hour I beg you to tolerate me for a while, once more, while I am asking and begging that the painful interruption occurs in the ecclesiastical and sacramental communion of the same-dogma Russian Church with our own in Greece. It is horrible even as a mere thought, with many parameters.
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Please do not want to be burdened with such an most-onerous burden of overwhelming responsibility, which will inevitably tarnish your blessed-by-the Lord Archbishopric.
Remember what you told the members of the past Permanent Holy Synod: “Let us not rush. Let the older Patriarchates go before us, and the older Autocephalous Churches, and then we in turn will say our opinion”.
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Let us be afraid of the horrorible consequences of one more schism. After yesterday’s statement by the Russian Church, the eyes of all the Greeks and all Orthodox are directed towards Your reverent person.
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Full article in Greek:
http://aktines.blogspot.com/2019/10/blog-post_396.html#more