Seriously?
Folks, you know that I’ve been a critic of the whole Archon/L100 class of ecclesiology. But I’ve tried to be somewhat respectful. When they’ve risen to the challenge, I’ve given them credit. For example, back in January when they hosted a virtual town hall on the Ukrainian autocephaly question, I thought to myself, “Hmm, looks like they’re opening up this controversy for debate. Then there was their condemnation of the New York Assembly which passed an infanticide bill a few weeks later. How refreshing.”
Admittedly, the infanticide bill was clearly a bridge too far for even the most rabid pro-abortionists (coming as it did on the heals of the whole Gov Ralph Northam of Virginia fiasco). As for the Ukraine/Virtual Town Hall event, it was most probably an attempt to manage the narrative which was spinning out of the Phanar’s control. As if on cue, they did lose control thanks to one of the panelists who took Metropolitan Emmanuel Adamakis severely to task.
Not only the panelists but the questioners were allowed to ask questions and the majority of them were not fooled by the song-and-dance that the Phanar was putting out. Having said that, the very fact that they offered such a public forum in the first place was a credit to them. As they say, “optics matter” (even if their intention was not in good faith.) In the end, nobody was really fooled and I seriously doubt they’ll ever try this again.
Unfortunately, with this latest stunt, I cannot restrain my criticism to the sardonic or snarky realm. With the bestowal of their Patriarch Athenagoras Human Rights award on Mr Sergey Dumenko, the fraudulent “Metropolitan of Kiev and All-Ukraine”, they’ve exposed themselves for the clown car posse that they are. There’s no going back from this.
Mind you, this isn’t the first time that they’ve beclowned themselves by their presentation of this medal. They’ve always been showboats; if this were Vaudeville, we’d say that that’s their schtick. When they’re not awarding this medal to Greek-American luminaries, they’ll reach out to the most popular non-Greek as a place-holder until the next year. Examples would include Mikhail Gorbachev, Mother Theresa of Calcutta and Elie Wiesel. It bolsters the illusion that the Ecumenical Patriarchate is not an ethnocentric one. And it helps maintain the illusion that the Archon/L100s are not a Byzantine nostalgia cult for wealthy Greek-Americans only.
Of course, things don’t always play out according to plan. Sometimes, there’s just not enough potential awardees who are willing to play along. Not to worry, when they get really desperate they can get political. Curiously, in such instances they never seem to nominate any conservative leader; it’s always some leftist political hack like Governor “Baby-killer” Cuomo and Vice-President “Creepy Joe” Biden. They not only get a free dinner with the swells at the Ritz-Cartlton but political cover from a “religious” group which they use to pad their resume.
Then, when they feel really ecumenical, there’s always some religious luminary such as Cardinal “Uncle Ted” McCarrick. I would have said “His Eminence Archbishop Theodore Cardinal McCarrick of Washington, DC” but he had a little problem you see; it was so bad that the Vatican couldn’t cover for him and so, he was stripped of all his episcopal and clerical titles. Why you may ask? Because, well, let’s just say too many young men in the seminary were close, personal friends of “Uncle Ted”.
So if you’re ever wondering why the whole Archon/L100 song-and-dance fools nobody, it’s because of never-ending inanities such as the Patriarch Athenagoras Human Rights award in general and the “luminaries” who receive it.
But giving this award to Dumenko really takes the cake as this man is a mountebank of the first water. In Orthodox circles, he and his schismatic sect are an open joke. So much so that nobody can take them seriously. And I really mean nobody. What little credibility the Phanar has is being eroded by this Ukrainian albatross around their neck. But God bless ’em, the Archons are going to give it the old college try. After all, they’re still in business so I guess they believe that they’ve fooled enough of the people enough of the time. (Wondering aloud here: How is it possible to give a “human rights award” to a “churchman” who is riding a wave of anti-Semitism in Ukraine? Has anybody bothered to run this by Elie Wiesel? Or, is he absolved from any criticism because he’s on board with the LGBT agenda?)
Now I realize that the overwhelming majority of the laity in the GOA don’t know the first thing about Ukraine and almost as little about the Archons. But I guarandangtee you, nobody will be fooled by their cloying attempt at making lemonade out of the sour lemon which the Phanar lobbed at them. Byzantine nostalgia can only take you so far. And this is a bridge way, way too far.
There is some irony here. It’s as if the St Nicholas Shrine chickens are coming home to roost. After all, the whole “ukrocephaly” con-game was put in motion because of the financial scandals that plagued (and continue to plague –see below) the GOA. Some of their high-level functionaries are singing like canaries to the Feds. Prison time is a possibility. Word on the street is that Secretary of State Mike Pompeo promised to get the Department of Justice to turn a blind eye to the missing millions if the Phanar hops on board the Cold War train.
As they said in The Godfather, “follow the money”. We intend to. Lots more to come. 
https://www.goarch.org/documents/32058/3194076/2018-2017-financial-statements.pdf/
“Word on the street is that Secretary of State Mike Pompeo promised to get the Department of Justice to turn a blind eye to the missing millions if the Phanar hops on board the Cold War train.”
Documentation please?
John, this is old news. I picked it up from Romfea, orthochristian and other sites about a month or so ago.
Besides the fact that this scenario is able to “connect the dots”, it was also buttressed by the news-story that the EP wants 4,000 Euros per/Ukrainian church/per month (which was reported by the AP). Anyway, do you honestly think that when a government (in this case the US State Dept) does something illegal or highly unethical, they’re going to put out a memo to that effect?
George, that number sounds highly suspect. Look, in the typical OCA parish, the diocesan assessments are probably around $1000/month given a parish with around 80 people on the roster. So, yes, if a parish had around 320 people on the roster, then $4000/ month. But that’s in the U.S.A. People in Ukraine typically don’t make as much money as in the U.S. If parishes in Ukraine had to cough up a minimum of 4,000EUR/month going just to Istanbul ( and what about their diocese?), then perhaps those parishes would close very quickly.
This sounds like it might be some story used to scare Ukrainian parishes from switching to the OCU.
The only way this might possibly make any sense is if parishes in the OCU averaged well over 1,000 members, which is actually likely. If the OCU constitutes 44% of the Ukrainian population (as some have estimated), then that’s almost 20 million members. With a reported 7,000 OCU parishes, then parish membership would need to average 2,800 members a parish to come up with this total of 20 million OCU members.
So, even if the figure of 28 million EUR a month going to Istanbul is correct, it then just proves the enormity of the OCU membership in Ukraine.
I believe that that’s from the number of all the Orthodox parishes in Ukraine. Not just the schismatic ones but the canonical ones as well.
Nobody estimated anything about SCU. It’s old claim by Razumkov foundation, that in their phone researches, 44% of population of Ukraine claimed allegiance to so called KP. Nothing about SCU. Leaving aside tiny detail, that this estimate is most probably wrong (for comparison, canonical Church has 11,000 parishes, versus some 4,000 of former KP, of which many existed in name only. Also, month ago there were two processions in Kiev one gathered 300,000 people, another one less than 15,000. I leave to your imagination to explain me why SCU gathered 20 times less than Ukrainian Orthodox Church. I mean this is not even worth of comparing.), we are coming to important fact, that only 15 to 20% of population in Ukraine are regular Church goers. Also, CP is not that dumb. He expected money from SCU sponsors like Macola and Petrovski (who is by the way, not sure whehter is he Jew or Christian)…
But in end, what false estimates of SCU numbers have to do with topic?
If in fact 28 million Euro a month is going to Istanbul, then either the OCU relies on some extremely deep pockets (like you mentioned), or they simply have the sheer volume of supporters necessary to budget this expense. I have no idea what the annual budget for the OCU is, but it would be very telling to find out.
How much money does the Greek Archdiocese and the other EP exarchates in the U.S. send to Istanbul? It can’t be $28 million a month. That would be absurd. I don’t even think the Archons send that kind of money to the EP.
If indeed the EP is receiving all this money from the poor Ukrainians, then perhaps the GOA and the Archons will become much less relevant to the EP’s survival. That wouldn’t be so bad a thing. Maybe the EP would then be willing to grant the GOA their autocephaly.
Well, nobody said CP got money. It was reported he demands it, because Poroshenko lost elections, and by that there is no hope CP will get promissed Churches and Monasteries. Besides, it’s old trick in negotiations, demand more to get less.
SCU does have verry rich sponsors, but their numbers are questionable. Like I said, police reports from 28th July, say some 15,000 people participated in their procession. Canobical Church gathered 300,000.
Anyway, here in Balkans, there is less Church goers, still town parishes can raise thousands of euros each month in donation. To be fair, wages here are somewhat higher than in Ukraine.
Brute from bygone ages: “15,000 people participated in their procession. Canobical Church gathered 300,00”
One needs to add that out of these 15,000 many came because they were pressured by the Poroshenko administration and many were simply Uniates or other nationalists.
On the other hand there was a lot of intimidation and police obstacles put in the way of the real procession.
Looks like this Phanar experiment is as as futile as the first one with the government supported renovationist Living Church of 1920s
And of course the pro-Russian news sources are sooo objective
Estimations of size of two processions were taken by Ukrainian police. Besides, we are talking about something visible. Also, number of registered parishes is taken from Government lists. I don’t understand what’s context of “pro-Russian” when we see direct interference of State Department in issues of Church governance in Ukraine.
Compared to the State Dept and it’s Phanariote lackeys, I’d say that the Russian and Russian Orthodox media is more reliable.
I for one, had no reason to disbelieve the 2014 Maidan propaganda put out by the Corporate Media in the West. They totally screwed that up.
My only question is how much Mr Dumenko had to pay for this pleasure? There is nothing for free in Phanariote circles. After all it was community of large scale traders.
Brute, my guess is that this is one of the very few times that the EP/GOA axis does something on their own dime. In retail, we call this a “loss leader”. Their so desperate to put lipstick on this pig that there’s no doubt in my mind that the Phanar waived the usual “fees” necessary to get anything done.
The question is how much $$$ is the Patriarch Athenagoras Human Rights Award worth? I.E., how much money is paid out to the recipient?
That, I do not know. Anybody?
I didn’t think about such possibility, but now it sounds logical.
With this year’s recipient, the Patriarch Athenagoras Human Rights Award has officially been weaponized. I have no doubt that the Autocephalous Orthodox Churches will see through this facade. The EP has over-played their hand. If the Church of Greece had been thinking of recognizing the OCU schismatics, let us hope this will help them to see the light.
The GOA and the “Archons” are in the dustbin of irrelevancy. Most Orthodox Christians can see it, even if some stubborn stalwarts in the GOA cannot.
The GOA/Church of C’ple continues to rely on Greek culture and ethnicity to sustain itself, though it’s no secret that Greeks and Greek-Americans are tremendously less church-minded now when compared with generations past.
When my family emigrated from eastern Greece (what was then the Ottoman Empire) 100 or so years ago, more or less everyone established themselves in America with a Greek Orthodox identity. The times were so different then, however. Today, it’s simply not so. Greeks and Greek-Americans are so fully secularized that most cannot even identify any church feast aside from “Greek Easter.”
The Archons are a bunch of wealthy secularists who push a political agendum, pure and simple. They are *not* models of Christian faith. As people have been saying for a year on these pages, serious Orthodox Christians need to leave the GOA/Church of C’ple. And as the news is indicating, if the CoG recognizes the fake/sham “OCU,” there will definitely be a schism in the CoG, and serious Orthodox Christians in the CoG will need to make a choice as well.
This is serious business. It does seem that God is forcing people to take a position, for as it says in the Holy Scriptures, “He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad” (Matthew 12:30).
Yes. Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ is taking away the gray areas. It is time to stand for the Truth. We will now be able to discern the true hierarchs and pastors from those who choose mammon. I pray that Christ finds us worthy to send us a holy bishop with whom we can unite…..another St Mark of Ephesus.
Ye dawgs are so in denial and dissociation as Elps reigns supreme!
Reigns supreme say ye? Odds bodkins not by my green candle! Some amongst us would not cross the primrose path to greet Mr. Lambrianides were he strolling in their own tuilerie!
Secularism, non-attendance at church, and even outright unbelief are indeed a problem for the parishes of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. However, this situation seems to exist in all of the Christian churches in the US and in many other nations as well. Are OCA parishes here holding up any better?
John, probably not. Even in the time of St. John Chrysostom he said that the majority of Christians were like a millstone around the neck of the Church.
That secularism, unbelief, etc exist in every Christian body is immaterial, thus it has always been (Remember Judas?).
The question is what are those sinners who actually are attempting to be faithful going to do? How are we going to respond?
Ultimately, no matter what happens, Jesus will open a way for the faithful with at least one bishop (probably many more) standing firm. What happens then is unknown but it will be a reduction in numbers, worldly approval, etc. The faithful may lose the buildings too. A form of catacomb community may develop. Or not. Maybe it is the mockers who will be put out. Don’t know.
But it will not stay the same. It will result in either a mass repentance on the part of the mockers or it will cause increasing conflict so that not even a pretend union will be possible. It will occur to one degree or another in every jurisdiction because it is occurring in the Church.
All I can tell you is that Greek, Russian, Syrian or any other ethnic hegemony over the Church in North America is a bad idea. It is such a violation of the history and spirit of this land that it could never be a living thing.
Michael, as always a comprehensive analysis.
If you allow me a subtle comment:
A lot worse than “the history and spirit of this land” and indeed of any other land on the planet,
is the violation of the “the history and spirit” of the BIBLE which clearly says there is no discrimination between a Jew and a Greek, thus for all ethnicities.
Greek, Russian, US (etc) Church hegemony is not Orthodox Christian. It is something else.
As ChrysoStomos (GoldenMouthed) has explained, if somebody (e.g.Constantinople) has baptised somebody else (e.g. Russia, US) the important part is not the baptizer (thus no “Mother” games and rights). The important part is the fact that the other is now BAPTISED. Period.
Human beings like myself, Bartholomew, you name it, have a tendency to like personal glory and that is the root of the subsequent problems. Kyrie Eleison.
Well said. And in the spirit of St. Paul, we ought to say: Thank God that no single jurisdiction can say they baptized America, that any should boast.
Better to be humble and work together to baptize the 99.7 percent of America that isn’t Orthodox.
Fortunately the leadership of the other canonical Orthodox churches in America have not capitulated to and adopted the “first without equals” heresy, as the GOA and its co-Church-of-C’ple jurisdictions (ACROD and the UOCofUSA) have.
John, I know that you really *want* to believe that the GOA is going to be ok and that things ain’t that bad or are “just as bad” in other jurisdictions. I get that. I really do. I’m Greek by heritage as well and understand where you’re coming from. But this is delusional thinking. Absolutely none of the data suggest that C’ple is backtracking. And this latest “award” that the “Archons” are giving to the fake/sham OCU leader show that they’re shoving their “first without equals” heresy in everyone’s face.
The Holy Spirit unites and does not divide. C’ple is deliberately dividing and even persecuting the Church. That’s unconscionable and, frankly, puts them outside of the Body of Christ.
It’s delusional, in my opinion, to stay in the GOA/C’ple jurisdiction with the hope that things will get better. I don’t think this strategy is being a responsible steward of Christ’s Church, as He calls all of us to be.
Is it “delusional thinking” for me to want to stay with a Greek Archdiocese parish here in the US?
Although all church attendance/membership figures vary widely for all Orthodox jurisdictions in the US, I believe I am safe in stating that the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese is by far the largest group. Is it expected that these several hundred thousand people will just switch to the OCA with no one left behind? No, church breakups can be very messy and bitter.
We must hope that such a hostile breakup does not happen and that later, perhaps much later and with God’s help, a unity can instead occur with the harmonious cooperation of the major Orthodox jurisdictions here.
John S., this hoped-for eirenic spirit is exactly what the Fener has quashed after Ligonnier and will forever, like the boot stomping the face Burton describes to Winston in 1984. The only eventuality which would result in Fener cooperation with anyone would be the severest humbling, like the complete destruction of the Fener.
Also, GOARCH demographics are swollen by a bureaucratic method of counting virtually every person who ever cut a checque as a member, whereas OCA numbers are artificially lowered by adherence to this day in many places (despite generational efforts to put representative giving into place) to a poll tax which many regular worshippers avoid paying.
It is also a scientific fact (Cf. Alexei Krindach research from PAOI) that smaller numbers of OCA worshippers put in many more man-hours of worship than do GOARCH ‘members’ whose church attendance is notoriously weak and inconsistent. Anecdotally, it is common among Greek Orthodox to attend Divine Liturgy casually, without regard to actual hour of services and to mosey on in to their accustomed rearward pew sometime around the Great Entrance. This disrespect betokening lack of conscience regarding our Divine Worship has never caught on among OCA worshippers because the latter’s clergy would actually be teaching what Orthodox Liturgy is about. I’ve never heard a Greek priest teach anything substantial from the solea. Instead, he typically behaves like an ethnic MC reminding his followers how wonderful it is to be part of the great Greek+ community. You don’t get that kind of banality in the OCA.
Claes, to my knowledge, only the Diocese of the South has done away with the “head tax”. Your larger point though is correct in that parishes in both the OCA and the AOCNA have traditionally held down their actual numbers in order to avoid remuneration to Syosset and Englewood, respectively.
There is one way only to make them understand:
The people should go to another jurisdiction, OCA, ROCOR, Antioch, like Fr.Em.Hatzidakis has done!
Wow, “more man-hours of worship” is now being claimed for the OCA. This is getting bitter.
Comments advocating patience and mutual respect among American Orthodox are apparently not welcome here.
I was more alarmed by the comment that Greeks “mosey” to church. I’ve never known a Greek to mosey anywhere.
It’s a Southern thing.
John, I for one counsel mutual respect and/or courtesy. The particular phrase to which you take exception was formulated by Alexei Krindatch to describe a cultural phenomenon. Krindatch, just so everybody knows, is a Russian academic who was hired by the Episcopal Assembly of the United States to catalog the life of American Orthodoxy. Not just numbers of parishes, communicants and services but attendance at said services. This was further broken down into frequency of attendance, duration of attendance and overall obeisance to the sacraments.
I really should publish it.
George and John, Actually the Bible tells us to go far beyond mutual respect and courtesy does it not? Radically beyond that as I read it.
Matthew 5:22 comes to mind: “…he who calls his brother fool is in danger of hell fire”.
Not to mention: “Bless those who curse you or despitefully use you” and many other similar commandments (not suggestions).
So, we have a high bar. I know that I have fared much better when I have at least tried to follow a discipline of not reacting. Holding on to my peace (what little I have) rather than giving it away easily.
For me, it means not allowing my fear, suspicion and arrogance to create irritation, judgment and anger while still allowing me to address issues that need addressing.
Personally, I find that really difficult to do with Greeks in particular. Still, I am glad they are around. It fits quite nicely into my metaphor of the salvific life as a lapidary polisher. The stones to be polished are put into a rotating bin with a bunch of harder stones and washed frequently with water. Days later, the softer stones come out smooth, bright and shiny having had all of their oxidized outer portions and all of their rough edges gradually chipped off.
Or the country song: “I’m just an old lump of coal, but I’m gonna be a diamond some day”. Diamonds come from coal due to a lot of pressure and heat.
We each have a bunch of rust, dents, dings and sharp edges that only patience and relying on our Lord’s providential mercy (which is not always soft and sweet) can heal.
A big part of not reacting is simply refusing to be offended. I figure that even if I have not sinned in a particular way, I am quite capable of it. That way I can more easily say, forgive me Lord and have mercy upon me no matter what.
I certainly do not do this consistently, but all the more reason to be humble, or at least not quite so arrogant.
Correctly said, Michael.
Being Greek, I can tell you there is not a typical Greek.
We are all different. To illustrate this, we say,
“A thousand Greeks have 2000 opinions”.
Keep up the good work Michael ,
and don’t mind the Greeks.
Well, as they say, ‘if the shoe fits, wear it.’ Some people (parishes) haven’t worn this particular shoe in a while, so — although it’s the right size — it might be a bit stiff and pinch a little. So say ‘Ouch!’ and fix the problem with more regular wearing of the shoe.
To a large extent, the laity’s participation in Orthodox Christian worship is facilitated or limited by the schedule of services in their own parishes.
In this respect, it can be accurately said that — for the most part — Greek and Serbian parishes in the United States (not picking on them, just using them as obvious examples) have no services except for the Divine Liturgy on he mornings of Sundays and some of the major feasts, and an Evening Service on the night before their patronal feast day. They also schedule only a minimum of service for Passion Week, Paskha, and Renewal Week
ROCOR parishes, Antiochian parishes, and American parishes of the Patriarchate of Moscow probably rank second, third and fourth ahead of the Greeks and Serbs, but the OCA parishes seem to me to be far and away in first place, ahead of all the rest in the sheer number of services available for parishioners.
This observation of mine is very general, even if it is mostly true, and local variations will always be noted. Still, I see that here in New Jersey, for example, there are Greek Orthodox people coming to our local OCA parish precisely because their own GOA parishes offer no Evening Service on Saturday nights, and they are used to that from Europe. They don’t know why most GOA parishes don’t follow the ancient patterns of their homeland, and neither do I, but they don’t.
When I first began my life as a monk in 1977m there were five Orthodox parishes in Kansas City, about forty miles from my monastery. The two OCA parishes held services every Saturday evening, while the two GOA parishes and the Serbian parish did not.
Under pressure from their people ,who were going to the OCA parishes on Saturday evenings and at other times when their own parishes held no services, the Greeks and the Serbs began to schedule these services as well.
Since I left Kansas City in 1994, one OCA parish has closed, an OCA mission which I helped start has grown into a parish in the western suburbs, a second Serbian parish and a ROCOR parish have opened — — all with an Evening Service every Saturday, and other services for the major holy days.
This looks like progress to me, but it wouldn’t have happened except that the laity were starting to vote with their feet, and their ‘ethnic’ parishes finally caught up with them. The more services they had, the more the parishes grew. That’s just a fact.
And glory to God for that!
Not to boast (and for what it’s worth) my own particular parish has at least five (5) services per week, including matins and vespers. On Friday, there’s an Akathist to the Mother of God, Nurture-of-the-Young (that’s for the homeschool co-op).
OCA priests are paid a salary by their parish. ROCOR priests work a secular job in addition to serving as priests, for which they do not get paid! Priests, according to the Bible, should not be paid. So the fact that the OCA can offer more services at the parish level is due to that, and only that.
Nate, I’m not disputing you. I’m just making an observation.
As for ROCOR priests, I understand that they receive a stipend if it’s a mission parish they serve for travel and lodging. And that’s as it should be.
Nate (August 29, 2019 at 11:43 pm) says:
OCA priests are paid a salary by their parish. ROCOR priests work a secular job in addition to serving as priests, for which they do not get paid! Priests, according to the Bible, should not be paid. So the fact that the OCA can offer more services at the parish level is due to that, and only that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
‘Nate’ is mistaken here.
The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America requires that parishes pay their priests a professionally competitive salary plus befits plus reimbursement of expenses incurred in their pastoral work, yet the parishes of the GOA provide very few liturgical services apart from the Morning Service and Divine Liturgy on Sundays and major feasts. So, obviously, the GOA doesn’t fit the template ‘Nate’ suggests is normative for America.
Then, there are a great many parishes and missions of the Orthodox Church in America which are served by priests who hold secular jobs to support their families, so the OCA doesn’t fit the template offered by ‘Nate’ here, either.
Altogether, this structure seems to be a figment of his imagination.
BTW: The OCA has noticed, over time, that parishes without a full-time priest simply stagnate. I suspect that others have observed this, too.
In any event, here’s some food for though.
About twenty years ago (I think), the Baptists came up with a formula for church growth. The basic recipe is that ten tithing families can start a parish, twenty tithing families can support a full-time pastor, and thirty tithing families can do outreach and mission work.
We have it on Someone’s good authority: ‘Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.’
Forget about whether or not tithing is ‘required’ of Christians. Do you want the Church to grow and be there for you, or not? Give generously of your time, treasure, and talent ‘Give in full measure, pressed down and overflowing’ says the Lord.
Sow generously, reap abundantly!
“Comments advocating patience and mutual respect among American Orthodox are apparently not welcome here.”(John Sakelaris)
Yes John, you are correct. I find less and less reason to contribute here any longer. While George is respectful on a personal level. In general he is not very respectful towards the Greek Churched, nor our leadership in large measure. He and his cohorts give the impression we Greek Orthodox are Greek festival and Greek dancing fools, who attend Church more to say OPA to one another, than Christ is Risen!
The bias towards Greek Orthodoxy by other American Orthodox Christians bloggers and their blind eye toward their own jurisdiction’s issues is neither Christ-like, patient, nor shows any humility. Mostly just down right rude, and ignorant.
Now we have a Russian academic with polls and studies huh? Not only on numbers of parishes and attendance, but duration of attendance, and obeisance to the sacraments? It seems to me, the non-Greek Orthodox not only believe they are better, and more devout Orthodox Christians than the Greek Orthodox, but now want to PROVE IT! Maybe they should poll our hearts as well!?
Whether the non-Greek Orthodox want to believe it or not, there is social element that pulls all to Church. Not just us crazy dancing Zorbas! What is worse , the non-Greek Orthodox and their pious self-righteousness or Greek Orthodox and their ethnic pride? Spiritually I see self-righteousness as much worse.
“Do you wish people to think well of you? Don’t speak well of yourself.”(Blaise Pascal)
Or better yet
Let us flee of the pride of the Pharisee!
And learn humility from the Publican’s tears!
Let us cry to our Savior,
Have mercy on us,
Only merciful One
Dino, I’m sorry you feel that way. For what it’s worth, Krindatch’s report shows very little to be happy about Orthodoxy in America.
As a health professional, I knew when to counsel a patient and when not to. The patient who is serious about his health is willing to accept an honest assessment of his habits.
Then, and only then will he have a fighting chance for a cure.
“The patient who is serious about his health is willing to accept an honest assessment of his habits. Then, and only then will he have a fighting chance for a cure.”
That is true, George, but you are referring here to persons, not groups.
As a non-Greek and worse yet in the eyes of some a (God forbid!) convert to Orthodoxy, I don’t appreciate being lumped into a category or being judged by the jurisdiction of the parish where I worship, confess, etc.. All the jurisdictions to which I have belonged over the years have had serious issues. Some of those issues have even approached the seriousness of the one at hand in terms of ecclesiological heresy and corruption. But I (with other faithful) AM the Church – not some nut with a crown who has gone madly astray. Not once in all those years has the ‘jurisdictional’ corruption of a heirarch ever infected any of my local parishes. If it had, I would have been out of there immediately.
Thus I have every confidence that our FAITHFUL Greek brethren will do likewise and will not follow the voice of a stranger, though doubtless many unfaithful will. These faithful, too, know that THEY are the Church and will do what is needed in order to preserve her purity. They deserve some slack until the dust settles.
I agree, Brian, and I also agree many Greeks will do what is necessary to preserve the Church. I’m a Yanke Doodle girl (big on the reappropriation of stigmatizing labels), who was born and bred in the good ‘ole U.S. of A. Here, diversity is a given. In my experience with many nationalities, it is Greek men who are most likely to engage when hearth and home are threatened and they’re the ones I’m depending upon to right this ship. Sure the GOA is screwed up but it is because of individual people. What jurisdiction doesn’t have people? All jurisdictions are screwed up! The fact that we even have jurisdictions is screwed up!
I think some people confuse the very real frustration we feel with specific things, e.g. Bartholomew’s papist leanings, granting autocephaly to schismatics in another bishop’s territory, etc. as criticisms of Greeks, which is not at all true; however, it’s always easier to find something wrong with the messenger than to fix the problem. Am I right? The people who now say, “you’re mean,” [paraprasing here] are the same individuals who refused to believe any kind of schism was afoot a few years ago or that would affect the entire Church, if not the entire world if it led to a conflict with Russia. They don’t want to hear bad news like this and they certainly don’t want to be accountable for doing anything about it! They will stick their fingers in their ears and go “lalalala” until they can no longer pretend it isn’t happening. This is not a Greek thing! It’s a human thing. Who doesn’t want to crawl up into a cocoon? But for some, even saying to their brothers and sisters in Christ, “I feel your frustration and am praying for you” is too much of an effort. They would rather point the finger somewhere else and it doesn’t matter where.
This is a long way of saying, I agree with you, Dino. What you’re saying is prudent: If you’re stuck between knowing there is a problem in your heart of hearts, but not wanting to do anything about it, it probably DOES make sense to stay away from the people who are taking all the risks and doing the heavy lifting. But don’t delude yourselves into thinking you’re the ones who have shown “patience” and “mutual respect.” People who are patient and show mutual respect are the people who are patient and respectful to the people who have been kind to them. You all just threw George under the bus. So go. Please go. I hope we can solve the problems we’re collectively facing so you can continue to live in your bubble. That is the goal. To protect you and the Church even if you think we are “mean” doing it. And if you can’t handle what’s been said to date, you’ll really be uncomfortable with what is to come. The names and faces are going to be far more familiar to you and frankly, as Jessup said in A Few Good Men, “You can’t handle the Truth.”
Really, Dino? Do you really want to go there? You have trashed a Saint of the Church, the Tsar-Martyr on this site. You wrote about the Soviets butchering your grandfather. Guess what, they probably killed my grandfather as well. I will probably never know that in this world, because my father was over here when his father died circa 1918. It wasn’t as if my aunt could write openly about the Soviet atrocities.
You want to go after the Tsar, fine. Your fellow Greek went after me, Michael Stankovich, and others on this very site. When Michael Stankovich protested to George, you basically told Dr. Stankovich to shut up. Nonetheless, I pray for you, George, Gail, and the two Michaels daily.
Brian my dear brother,
As usual you get it. You have never let me down, even when I find myself doubting my own passionate words. You cut thru my harsh manner of speech and get to spirit of my appeal. I wish Gail would read your post ten times, so she may get it as well.
There is nothing more spiritually uplifting than realizing we are not in control of lives. In my prayers I give myself up to our Lord, and let His spirit guide me, I end my prayer asking His will be done, and not mine.
Likewise, Gail, you, me, anyone here on this blog, does not have any control over what will happen to our Church at top levels. What I do know is our spirit guide our local Churches. Only the Holy Spirit moving thru our local Churches will make a difference in the world, in a collective manner.
What is lacking by many is patience, humility, and faith in God’s will. Patience and faith, not jumping the gun. George, Gail, and all who follow their zeal might regret their actions, in the long run. Defining my Church schismatic and laying down lines that need not exist, will burn many bridges. Bridges, relationships, and brotherhood destroyed that need not be destroyed, regardless if things do or don’t work out in the long run,in our Lord’s time.
It’s already happening here on this blog, even legal action. Remember, just as fast as the Russian/Greek split was done, it can be undone, but on the local levels the damage done will last many decades, while the men with the crowns enjoy tea with one another again.
Finally, I do not believe I threw George under the bus, as Gail states. I gave George my opinion, and let him know I don’t like Greeks or my Church being stereotyped, let alone declared schismatic. I hope George and I will always have mutual respect, regards if we disagree.
Estonian Slovak,
Just want to set the record straight. Perhaps during your absence on this blog you missed that I reversed my opinion upon Tsar-Martyr. I also reversed my opinion and agreed with George that removing Confederate statues was wrong.
In regards to Michael Stankovich, I have asked his forgiveness many times, and have great respect for him. I believe he knows that. Some day God willing when I visit my aunt and cousin in Oceanside, I hope he may accept my invitation to break bread together.
Lastly you may have also missed that I never said my grandfather was killed by the Soviets. He was arrested and sent to a Gulag, with thousands of other Greeks in the Soviet Union. He was spared because he was a tailor, and spent most of his time indoors. Only 10 percent of the men in his town survived. Please read my response to Brian. Thank you for your prayers, sincerely, they mean a lot to me.
Dino,
““Do you wish people to think well of you? Don’t speak well of yourself.”(Blaise Pascal)”
In that case, it applies to us Greeks as well. Let us not speak well of ourselves.
You are obviously a very devout Orthodox but that is not the case with the actions of your (and my previous) hero Bartholomew and entourage.
Not you, not me, but THEY want
“Greek Orthodox are Greek festival and Greek dancing fools, who attend Church more to say OPA to one another, than Christ is Risen!”
plus of course pay financial due to Istanbul, to finance the work being done there.
Read carefully what B. has said/done all these years, eg,
_”All religions lead to salvation”
_Excommunicated theologian N.Sotiropoulos for criticising unchristian teaching of bishop, left Bishop alone to carry on.
_Gifted the “Holy Quran” to the president of a big company (presumably for receiving a donation from the company).
_If you read Greek you can download a page-full list of his “achievements”.
What we need is someone like Saint Markos Evgenikos to free us from the claws of the Friends of the Pope, the Ecumenists, the Syncretists and so on.
Dino Tsortanidis: “Only 10 percent of the men in his town survived. ”
Are you sure? Which town was it?
Martin, I believe I responded to you re Dino’s comment on another thread. I totally believe Dino regarding his grandfather’s village. Stalin was a greater murderer than Hitler. And his attempts at ethnic cleansing are legendary.
Dino, I believe I owe you an apology for remembering past wrongs. I’m sorry that I misjudged you.
But while apologizing for wronging you, I have to stand with George, Gail, and others here concerning the actions of the EP. We are living in an information age and are not illiterate peasants. We are not going to follow Patriarch Bartholomew with blind papal obedience. We cannot help it that the Patriarch compromised the faith. It is not bigotry or being anti-Greek to point this out.
When I go to the doctor’s office, step on the scale, and it goes to 250, the doctor is not being a bigot by telling me I’m obese and putting my life in danger. He is doing what he is supposed to be doing; to help heal physical ailments.
Now, if the Hierarchs were doing their jobs, perhaps George’s blog wouldn’t be necessary. We just can’t sit still and be silent while they squander two thousand years of Christianity. If they want to do this, it’s on them, but they cannot expect us to follow blindly. Forgive me, a sinner!
Estonian Slovak,
“Now, if the Hierarchs were doing their jobs, perhaps George’s blog wouldn’t be necessary. We just can’t sit still and be silent while they squander two thousand years of Christianity. If they want to do this, it’s on them, but they cannot expect us to follow blindly.”
You are absolutely right!
Martin,
My grandfather’s family lived in the Sukhumi area, modern day Georgia. Since you seem to question /doubt me, let me be more clear. My Grandfather told us that only ABOUT 10 percent RETURNED back to their families. Most likely killed, or died by the horrible conditions in the labor camps, maybe died returning home, or simply gave up trying to return. My grandmother waited about 7-8 years for him to return. Faith, and patience.
Saint George was a greatly venerated and beloved saint by my Grandmother because weeks before my grandfather’s return she constantly had dreams of a beautifully dressed officer on a white horse galloping towards her proclaiming, “Sophia! I’ve overcome the serpent and return to you!” Faith, and patience.
It was short of a miracle, by God’s will my grandfather returned. My father was frightened by his return as he never knew his father, since he was only a toddler when my grandfather was arrested, and about eleven when my grandfather returned. It took my father about a year to “get” that my grandfather was really his dad, and casually one day he called out “baba”(dad), my grandfather burst out in tears rushed his son, hugging and kissing him upon his ears finally hearing his son call him father, for the first time since he was a toddler. Faith, and patience.
My grandfather did not speak much of the details during his time in the labor camp/prison, and the difficult time returning home after his release. When they finally immigrated to Athens, he forbid anyone to speak Russian again, an understatement to say he hated what the the Soviets/Russians did to him, his family, and friends gone forever during Stalin’s purge. Ironically my father always loved speaking Russian to Russians when he immigrated to San Francisco. My grandparents even had another child when my grandmother was in her early 40’s, quite rare in those years, and my grandfather got to experience raising a child in a normal and complete manner , without fear of arrest again, in a peaceful country(Greece). Faith, and patience.
Why the long story? First keep in mind my mother’s family also fled Turkey during the burning, and bloodbath in Smyrna, and lost much wealth and property, left behind forever, yet like my father’s family was spared death. Again short of a miracle and the will, and mercy of God. Why spared? Who knows, but I know it was God’s will, and in the long run all work out.
So now. In the current mess we find our Churches in, with regards towards a growing secularized society stealing more and more of our brothers and sisters, even clergy, plus top levels of our Church sparing with one another, with blame to go all around, granted more our EP’s fault` in regards to Ukraine. We really have no control what will happen, nor know how all will go down. We are in the 7th round of a 15 round fight, amongst leaders who vision themselves above, and greater than one another. Orthodoxy’s power struggles, and politics at play, must not affect our local Churches in a negative manner. Mutual respect among brothers and sister is key, those proclaiming us under the GOA, and EP schismatic serves no one in positive Christ-like manner. All this will do is sow deep divisions between us, before they need to. From my perspective I have nothing but Faith, and patience. It will all work out, trust me. Better yet trust God, and His Will.
Wait and see, He will not forsake His Church.
Ioannis,
I have never said the EP was my hero, please do not put words I my mouth.
Also I do not know how devout I am, but will know one day.
I do imagine, I am a much greater sinner than the EP. So as long as we don’t go under Rome, I’ll wait, and stick it out, and more importantly, worry more about my salvation, than his.
Dino Tsortanidis,
“I have never said the EP was my hero, please do not put words I my mouth.”
I am sorry Dino, I do not mean it literally, but kind of. “I do imagine, I am a much greater sinner than the EP”.
May be, but guess what?
St.J.Chrysostom said he believes that most presbyters and bishops will go to Hell, because they have promised so many things and have not done them! (Homily on Acts).
“So as long as we don’t go under Rome, I’ll wait”,
You are forgetting that prevention is easier than cure:
If we do go under Rome we will need to shed blood of millions of people to get out! Are you serious?
” and more importantly, worry more about my salvation, than his.”
Chrysostom again says it is not “either or” but “both” in the correct sequence.
We must worry about our salvation and then that of the others as well!
That’s because their claims to spiritual quietude are all about nursing hangovers.
John,
You write: “Is it ‘delusional thinking’ for me to want to stay with a Greek Archdiocese parish here in the US?”
My opinion is that it’d be delusional to stay with the GOA/Church of C’ple if one expects them to “come to their senses” and recant of their “first without equals” heresy. Over the past year they have only grown in the intensity with which they push this heresy; there’s no sign of backing down or of backtracking. The next likely Patr of C’ple (Archbp. Elpidophorous) is the prime advocate of this heresy, for crying out loud!
A delusion is a fixed, false belief. My opinion is that it’s a delusion to continue to believe that the GOA/Church of C’ple plans to stay faithful to Christian Orthodoxy.
What you do, my friend, is, of course, your call. God has blessed us with a free country (more or less) in America, in which each man can follow his free will and conscience. It’s certainly not an easy choice, especially for those of us with Greek heritage who want to believe that our Greek churches are not heretical.
But there are thousands of folks of Greek heritage who have left the GOA/Church of C’ple because the desire to stay faithful to Christ and His Church is far stronger than any cultural or ethnic ties, as it most certainly should be, in my opinion.
The “thousands of folks of Greek heritage” who have left Greek Orthodox Archdiocese parishes in the United States for other Orthodox jurisdictions are greatly outnumbered by the many thousands of others who have stayed with the Greek Orthodox parishes and by the additional thousands of converts who have joined those parishes.
Make no mistake about it, talk on this blog encouraging individuals to leave Greek Orthodox parishes is very divisive. Remember, there is no aspect of the Holy Scriptures or the Nicene Creed at issue here.
By the way, I use my real name on here.
John, nobody here is encouraging GOA laymen to leave the GOA. I for one am most certainly not. If anything those in the GOA who are upset should remain and try to reform it from the inside.
George may not be encouraging “laymen” to leave Greek Orthodox parishes, but I believe that some others on here are encouraging just that.
And George, why specify “laymen” in your response? Is that a tacit admission that you hope members of the Greek Orthodox clergy will go to other jurisdictions?
I dunno John, why I specified only laymen. I thought that was the gist of your criticism. If I misunderstood, I apologize.
I joined the Orthodox Church. The only Orthodox parish in my city is the GOA parish. I had often attended services there over the decades, and knew many parishioners before I joined it.
Just outside of town is an OCA church. It’s 25 minutes away compared to 5 for the GOA parish. I had often attended services there over the decades also, and know many parishioners. I go there once in awhile.
I joined about 6 years ago. Same church, same priest, same congregation, same Faith as it was then. I’m not going anywhere.
The thousands of Greeks who have stayed are greatly outnumbered by the thousands (especially their children and grandchildren) who no longer attend any Orthodox Church. They are not flocking to other Orthodox jurisdictions, they are going nowhere or to some other Christian denomination. People don’t even know their own faith. I have heard amazing stupidity over the years. A seventeen-year-old boy asked “What is the Holy Spirit?” A Greek head of the Sunday school rebuked my son-in-law for teaching Old Testament Bible stories – she said we don’t believe or teach the Old Testament! A Greek Church in my town couldn’t even fill the pews this year for Pascha.
CS
I can only think of one solution:
Send an e-mail to the Bishop explaining all your findings.
Tell him (very politely) that if he can not deal with this you will write to the Archbishop.
Tell us here what the outcome is.
Let’s not kid ourselves, CS. This falling away and ignorance of the Faith afflicts every jurisdiction, some worse than others, and is almost entirely dependent upon the spiritual health of their parish and, more critically, their parents and grandparents.
Note that I am not saying that bishops play no role in this (most often due to severely misplaced priorities), but that role is minuscule compared to everyday parish and family nurturing (or lack thereof).
I’m not sure what the answer is. 100 or more years ago, kids might have been happy to sit in church for 2 hours on Saturday or Sunday. It would have been preferred to extra farm chores, or a few hours scrubbing laundry or the floors. We have more leisure time than ever, but no time or attention for church services. For most American kids, church cannot compete with movies and video games for their attention. We are content to say we love God, as long as the “God stuff” does not get in the way of what we feel like doing.
CS Louis (September 2, 2019 at 12:41 pm)says:
I’m not sure what the answer is. 100 or more years ago, kids might have been happy to sit in church for 2 hours on Saturday or Sunday. It would have been preferred to extra farm chores, or a few hours scrubbing laundry or the floors. We have more leisure time than ever, but no time or attention for church services. For most American kids, church cannot compete with movies and video games for their attention. We are content to say we love God, as long as the “God stuff” does not get in the way of what we feel like doing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Right, but there was a time when the church provided the only show in town.
If people wanted music and theater, they went to church. If they wanted to socialize, they went to church. If they wanted to unburden their consciences, they went to church. To mark the great moments in their lives, — births, marriages, deaths — they went to church.
This isn’t true so much anymore, although it’s a fact that people like rituals — it’s just an aspect of our human nature. For example, almost everyone in the anglosphere knows how to sing ‘Happy Birthday’ and that the birthday celebrant must blow out the candles on the cake.
Now there are all sorts of secular options for all of these human needs, and because people are so godawful politically correct, they avail themselves of these secular options so that they don’t take the risk that someone might be offended by their choices.
This has to stop if our contemporary civilization is not to devolve into a soulless mechanism of pretended practicalities, preferring form over substance and losing all sense of ‘the good, the true, and the beautiful’, as even prechristian philosophers were wont to say.
We have to be proactive about this.
It does little good for us to bemoan the decline of culture and wring our hands as we complain to each other without getting out there and DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
Missionize! Preach the Good News! Spread the joy which only Christ can bring!
All of us, in our own special ways, can make a difference.
Today I learned of a seventeen-year-old who tried (and failed, thank Heaven) to kill himself and is now recovering in the hospital. His large and loving family are all around him, and their parish priest — who had never before met the boy or most of his family — has been with them constantly.
I don’t know just what happened here, but I’m certain that if this lost young man had been raised and encouraged as a Christian, he would not have come to this. It’s a dreadful thing that anyone should commit suicide, but this is what happens when the devil gets in. As our Lord Jesus Christ tells us, ‘Satan was a murderer from the beginning, and he is the father of lies.’
What kind of lies must people have believed so as to make them think that they have no alternative but to kill themselves? The Holy Spirit is the Giver of Life, as we pray so often, and Satan is the taker of life. We don’t have to be rocket scientists to figure out just what’s going on here.
The decline in culture, its secularization and false thinking about the need for divine help will cause civilization itself to commit suicide.
‘Let us entrust ourselves and each other, and our entire life to Christ our God.’
As the Proverb goes…
“Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it.”
Like all proverbs, this one is generally, but not always, true. It is a proverb, not a promise. No parent can be guaranteed success, for children also have free will.
Nevertheless, children who are not only taught but see the faith lived before their eyes and taken seriously by the parents and grandparents (not to mention the clergy and others in their parish communities) …when they see us praying at home, when they see us obeying Christ even at a cost, when they see us fasting, putting our money into the Kingdom of God, giving alms, serving others, demonstrating self-control and holiness out of love for God…when they see us praying for them, when they see us make vespers, vigils, and Liturgy a priority in our lives, not neglecting the assembly of ourselves together, when they have modeled before them the sheer power and peace that comes of having faith in Christ , the odds are strong that they will desire it. And even if they fall away for a time and experience the disintegration that results of being deprived of this power, they will know from whence they have fallen and retain a desire to return.
But if we do almost none of these things… if we think nothing of missing church ourselves, if we prioritize employment over Church (willingly choose to accept jobs that cause us to miss Liturgy, etc.), if we allow them to participate in activities that keep them from church (Sunday sports programs, etc.), if we don’t accustom them to the rhythm of worship and prayer by insisting they go with us and participate to the limits of their abilities, answer their questions, take advantage of every opportunity to extoll the goodness of God’s commandments and to point out the terrible things that happen to those all around us who ignore Him, if we don’t pray with them and ask their forgiveness when we fail. if we don’t live the faith at all times… if we behave one way in church and another at home (swearing casually, allowing filth into the home, worshipping mammon, etc.), then we should not only not wonder why our children don’t see any value in the Faith, we should wonder whether we value it ourselves.
Can our bishops help with this? Yes. They can insist that the prescribed services are offered in their parishes. They can insist on education in the parish. But there is little that is within the powers of our bishops, regardless of jurisdiction, that will amount to much apart from our own willingness to be faithful to Christ.
The remedies now are up to each of us personally in our own families and amongst our friends.
The general Christian ‘atmosphere’, as we all know is long gone from our society. In my own case, my parents were nominal Presbyterians, members of the church, did not attend (though always wrote a check), and were frank agnostics. Yet my mother in particular was insistent and required that we attend Sunday School from childhood on, and so I was raised in the church all the way through the high school youth program.
My mother stated the position frankly: “you can’t be a member of Western civilization without a Christian education”. She often reiterated this. And this was a common attitude in these parts.
So most kids, whether their folks were ‘religious’ or not, got a basic Christian education. They knew the Creation stories, they knew who Moses was, they had heard of Isaiah. They knew the New Testament stories, the life of Jesus; in short, the basics.
Everybody did. Now, nobody does. Basic biblical knowledge, once an integral part of society, has vanished.
But my kids learned it, and so have theirs. Some are devout, some are more nominal. But all know and respect the Faith. It’s all up to us as parents and grandparents. Society no longer backs us up at all.
It helps to understand that the mission of the GOA from its founding – nearly 100 years ago – was never to spread Christ or the gospel. This is in clear juxtaposition to the American Russian Orthodox mission which started in the late 1700s in Alaska (through the efforts of our father among the Saints, St Herman of Alaska, and many others) – whose clear purpose was to missionize to Americans. As we all know, the OCA, ROCOR, and part of the Antiochians (via St Raphael) grew out of this American Russian Orthodox mission.
I grew up in the GOA and can tell you that missionizing to America and spiritual formation of the faithful was never a priority in the GOA that I experienced.
Rather, the entire point of the GOA is/was to provide a chaplaincy to Greek-Americans as they pursue the “American dream.” Its my belief that this bizarre “mission” of the GOA remains the same today, with a few exceptions (mostly some mission-minded GOA parishes in the American South, who get their missionizing impetus from American Protestant Southern culture, which is quickly fading).
Hopefully this provides some context into why the GOA has never been big on Christian formation, faith, and mission.
There’s a similar phenomenon in some of the other smaller “ethnic” Orthodox jurisdictions in America (like the Bulgarians, Romanians, Serbs, and of course the non-Chalcedonian jurisdictions like the Copts & Ethiopians, etc., who aren’t mission-minded at all. But the GOA is unique in that it’s the largest and wealthiest of the American Orthodox jurisdictions, and is thus often considered the standard-bearer – which is why we critically analyze the GOA far more than we do the other, smaller jurisdictions).
The reader comments on this page say it all:
https://www.thenationalherald.com/258546/uniting-orthodoxy-in-american-should-be-our-number-one-priority/
“The reader comments on this page say it all”
Oy vey, muh antisemitism!
CS, most parish council members in the GOA have not read the NewTestament. The GOA needs to decide whether it is a Greek club that does Church services or is it the Body of Christ. Most GOA members identify with being Greek rather than with Christ. By the way, they are not same as some Greeks would tell you.
It’s a shame. The Greeks are great at putting on festivals, but somehow the word doesn’t even get out to most Americans that Greek Orthodox = Christian! My son heard a presentation in a public school segment on world religions, where a student got up and read his essay which said that the religion today in Greece is people worshiping Zeus, Hera and Athena!
No they do not. I’m Greek Orthodox and many, MANY Greek Orthodox in the midwest, and especially in the Chicagoland area identify as we always do as Christians. I can’t speak for all of them. But i can speak to those of us that are devoted to our faith, support our local parishes, support and go to Father Ephraim’s monasteries and fight the good fight everyday to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. So relax with the anti-Greek propaganda. Not all of us in the GOAA agree with what is going on or with what the EP has done, especially in Ukraine or even agree with the games Moscow has and continues to play via breaking communion instead of working with the other Orthodox churches to convey a council to deal with Ukrainian. Schism is not the answer. 2 wrongs do not make a right. So as George says lets try to love one another, pray for one another and keep the temperature to a reasonable degree.
God love you!
Jk, yes, I learned this long ago as a deacon in my Protestant church, in my early 30s. I’d visit lots of older men who no longer could make it to church, one of the main jobs of our deaconate. Also, as an active member, I got to know well a great many in the congregation, most of them who attended every week.
It began to dawn on me over time. Most had a Bible on the coffee table; most were often in church. But…most never read the Bible at all, at least beyond a few well known and comfortable passages. The idea of reading the New Testament all the way through on at least a semi-regular basis hadn’t occurred to them….
I don’t doubt that this remains true there, and here amongst the Orthodox, as well…
The teacher who abjured the Old Testament is something else; one wonders if she ever noticed the Psalms being sung at practically all times and places, or the countless OT readings at Vespers services….
On the other hand, I don’t see anything too strange about a 17-year-old boy asking “what is the Holy Spirit”, a good question for a young person, and indeed, it’s nice that he was interested enough to ask….
Indeed Tim, a key question for me as a catechumen was “What is the Holy Spirit?” I ask the priest that. A meandering conversation that took almost an hour commenced. At the end of that time, the priest sat back and said, “I think we have accomplished a great deal.” I was on the point of objecting as there was no concrete answer that resulted but then it “dawned” on me, we actually had accomplished a great deal as somewhere in that less than concrete seemingly meandering conversation, the reality of the Holy Spirit was communicated and there was a certain identifiable peace in my soul. I still do not understand what happened or why let alone the particulars, but at the conclusion of that meeting, my late wife and I decided to come into the Church. The peace in my soul has not gone away even in the worst of times.
Whatever happened, it served as a necessary bookend/foundation piece to my previous encounters with Jesus Christ. I see absolutely no problem with anyone asking “Who (or what) is the Holy Spirit?” or any other foundational question at any time. That is why we are instructed to 1 Peter 15 to always be ready to share the reason of our hope. Jesus asked the Apostles: “Who do you say I am”?
The reasons for my hope, i.e, what I know to be true:
God, our creator, loves us.
Jesus Christ our Lord, God and Savior is who the Bible says He is.
The Holy Spirit is real and will guide us into all truth, sustain and comfort us no matter what.
The Orthodox Church is the living embodiment of the Holy Trinity and the only “place” where the fullness of the Truth can be entered into, experienced and lived.
When we are Chrismated we receive “The Seal of the Gift of the Holy Spirit”. That seal never goes away but we certainly can ignore Him and the other persons of the Holy Trinity if we choose, but there is always a way back.
That is true no matter what sins abound in me or anyone else. Isaiah 41:10 puts it succinctly.
The mercy of our Lord is inexhaustible.
Good to see you here again, Peter!
RE: “Schism is not the answer. 2 wrongs do not make a right. So as George says lets try to love one another, pray for one another and keep the temperature to a reasonable degree.”
I must disagree. The MP’s and ROCOR’s ceasing eucharistic communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople and its subsidiary jurisdictions, though personally painful for yours truly with my many colleagues and friends in those jurisdictions, is an act of tough love–the only language the “first among equals” knows how to respect.
Very well put, Anon 2.
It’s likely now that the Synod of the Church of Greece is going to recognize Dumenko and the false congregation in Ukraine. They’ve already got all the ivory tower-dwellers on their side. Abp. Anastasios of Albania wrote that he would back Bart even though he’s wrong. I’m afraid the Greeks are willing to make a permanent cleavage in the body of Orthodoxy. They’ve been hewing at it since the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
Sad. The silver lining (if one can call it such) as far as any possible recognition by the CoG for the schismatics in Ukraine would be a schism within the CoG. It won’t be the first time that that happened for what it’s worth. When the CoG went New Calendar there was a schism as well.
I imagine that if this happens, then several bishops of the CoG will start making overtures to either ROCOR and/or the Old Calendar Greek churches.
I doubt this, George. People thought that Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos would end up allying with the Greek Old Calendarists. We see that didn’t happen. If the Church of Greece recognizes the OCU, Metropolitan Hierotheos will be largely to blame.
If this indeed happens (and schism within the CoG follows) then it will be a sad coda to the career of Met Ierotheos Vlachos. Pray for him.
Metropolitan Hierotheos belongs to same scholarly circles as Metropolitan John. Hierarchs who condemned Patriarch’s unlawfull acts are Seraphim of Pirreus, Ambrosius etc.
By the way, Metropolitan of Zaporozhye published open letter to hagiorite Monks:
https://spzh.news/en/news/64552-mitropolit-luka-opublikoval-otkrytoje-pisymo-k-monaham-afona
Metropolitan Hierotheos was theologicaly conservative, but he is phanariote first and foremost. Greek hierarchs who condemned unlawfully acts of Fenar are Metropolitans Seraphim of Piraeus, Ambrose of Kalavryta, and Seraphim of Kythira.
https://spzh.news/en/news/58661-mitropolit-kifirskij-serafim-sozdanije-pcu-podryvajet-jedinstvo-svyatoj-cerkvi
https://spzh.news/en/news/59549-mitropolit-pirejskij-serafim-tomos-ob-avtokefalii-vydan-raskolynikam
https://spzh.news/en/news/56284-jepiskop-elladskoj-cerkvi-patriarkh-varfolomej-reshil-razdelity-pravoslavije
One should be loyal to Christ and His Church first and foremost. I know the two Ukrainian Orthodox bishops here in the U.S. They are good men, but their Ukrainian Nationalism gets in the way of their Orthodoxy. They would rather side with the Ukrainian Catholics against their Orthodox brethren. The extreme nationalists co-opt the Cossack heritage of Ukraine. The Kuban Cossacks are basically of Ukrainian stock, many still speak Ukrainian or a Russian-Ukrainian mix known as “balachka.” I’ve known Kuban Cossacks in the emigration. Some of them might on occasion go to a Ukrainian Orthodox church( most of the ones I knew went to ROCOR). They might even support the idea of Cossack separatism. But you will never, ever, find a Cossack going to a Ukrainian Catholic church. My father came from one area of Ukraine which had been part of Poland. The Cossacks there rose up against the Poles and the Uniate creation. They chose Russia over Poland because of Orthodoxy. The rest is history.
Have blessed feast of Dormition of Holy Mother of God!
Kuban Cossaks were transfered from Zaporozhye. But, I think, majority of people in Krasnodar now consists of migrants from Northern Russia, who got transfered during industrialisation. Separatism existed, from time to time, even among Don Cossaks who have nothing with Ukraine (they descend from Russian frontiersmen and Russified stepe tribesmen). In end, all Cossak groups were oportunists politicaly. When it suited them they were supporters of Emperor… When not… They rebelled.
You are right they were Orthodox, and openly anti RC. It’s interesting, Uniate clergy glorifies Taras Schevchenko, Ukrainian poet, who wrote poems about Cossaks destroying Uniate Churches, and clergy…
Brute, from what you write about the Uniates, they can’t even get their history straight. This solidifies my contention that they “are neither fish nor fowl”.
Well, I am Serb, and my knowledge about Ukraine comes from books, and media outlets, so feel free to discard anything I say. But, for wath my opinion is worth, Uniates want leading role in Ukrainian society. They find it reasonable (more precisely, their leaders) to accept figures whose authority is unquestionable in Ukrainian culture. Soviets, and UNR before them made Schevchenko’s person sacrosanct. For example, even among pro Russian Ukrainians were admirers of Schevchenko (Oles Buzina, Metropolitan Vladimir). In order to be relevant Uniates must admire him. Even if he was at Index of Libri prohibitiorum. Also, verses where Schevchenko is cursing Moskals and their Emperor are pleasant to hear to Russophobe ears.
Well, in essence, I agree with you. Ukrainian Uniates are rather creative when it comes to interpretation of History. For example, they claim to be most legitimate heirs of Saint Vladimir the Greate, as he lived before Grand Schism… Funny fact that Vladimir expelled Western missionaries is of course ignored. Also direct descendents of St. Vladimir are occupiers, and descendants of Lithuanian prince Gedemin are “true heirs of Rus”.
By the way, it’s twist of irony, descendants of people who opposed Unia in most determinate manner, for 120 years are only one who are Uniates today…
Really, Brute, I thought you were Russian. In any case you give yourself away as a Slav by not using the article “the” in your English. Like many Russians, Poles, Slovaks,etc; my late father used to say,” I go to store now,” instead of “I’m going to the store now.” For him, that felt natural because he was still thinking in Russian or Ukrainian.
The Finn or Estonian will take it a step further and say,” I go store now,” because those languages have elaborate cases( 14 or 15, compared to 6 or 7 for most Slavic tongues).
Know that I pray daily for the suffering Serbian land, just as I pray for peace in Ukraine. I attended a Serbian church for yesterday’s feast and was pleased to hear the Serbian clergy voice their support for the Canonical Ukrainian church.
Thank you for kind words, and prayers my brother. You are correct about articles. It’s simply something we don’t get.
Solitary Priest,
Big problem.
We listen to Christ in the Gospel saying’
“he who loves his brother…etc…more than me is not worthy of me”
and then we go out and (implicitly) say and preach “I love my country more than Christ”.
Clergy typically suffer from the weakness resulting from too much empathy. It’s a hazard of the job they do, always seeing through the eyes of their flock. Weak scholarship and spirituality will ruin a priest by making him a creature of the parish.
I don’t believe they teach much in seminary about how to deal with parish councils. One wise priest and instructor at St. Tikhon’s was Fr. Vladimir Borichevsky. He told his students, “stay as long as you can in a parish. You will outlive all your opponents.” He was allegedly run out of a Philadelphia parish, which today is with so-called Patriarch Filaret. That church’s loss was St. Tikhon’s gain.
Father, you priests really are the best. The longer I’m in the church, the more I respect what you all have to deal with.
RE: “I don’t believe they teach much in seminary about how to deal with parish councils.”
I can speak with certainty–as the newly retired Dean– about Holy Trinity Seminary (ROCOR) in Jordanville, New York.
The fourth and final required Pastoral Theology seminar in the Master of Divinity (M.Div.) degree program is titled, “Parish Leadership: Administration, Religious Education, Evangelism, and Humanitarian Outreach.” That is, to be sure, a packed agenda. But the collective wisdom of the administration and faculty, both clergy and laity, at Holy Trinity Seminary generated that capstone course in the final semester of our three-year degree program, based, in particular, on the laments of many Orthodox parish priests that they were not prepared to deal with parish councils, church wardens, intra-parish conflict, wealthy & presumptuous parishioners, parish finances, budgets, and fundraising, etc.
I am confident that the M.Div. graduates of at least one Orthodox seminary in North America will be prepared for parish administration.
Fr. Alexander,
That is all very well. I don’t doubt that what you are saying is true. But I’m talking about 40 years ago.
According to the Orthodox Church and her Church Fathers schism is a very serious matter, the Greek Orthodox Bishops are aware of that reality although the ecumenist have a much different perspective. I don’t know how many are embedded in the Church of Greece, I’m sure Bartholomew knows.
Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism [i.e., is a schismatic], he does not inherit the kingdom of God;
Ignatius of Antioch
Recognizing the schismatic OCU would cause internal schism inside the Church of Greece. It would be devastating for them and the Orthodox world. Let us pray that they do not succumb to this temptation.
The question is whether the ROC will break Communion with the Church of Greece, which would be a major blow to world Orthodoxy. These are very dark times and very dark forces at work from Istanbul.
Dear Greg,
Here it is difficult to comprehend (exceedingly so) that the Church of Greece is actually considering joining hands with Bartholomew in casting lots and dividing the garments of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, as if His Church and people should suffer that way, namely at the hands of some more within the hierarchy. I suppose it is deeply disturbing to me because from my youth I have known so very many kind hearted and pious Greek Orthodox Priests who always spoke so fondly and reverently of the Church of Greece, I would be remiss not to mention Mt. Athos where I always thought such things as creating schisms are very quickly dismissed as a matter of love for Christ and his Church.
I’m certain that there is no teaching within the Orthodox Church that any see or bishop has a “right” to create such turmoil throughout all of Orthodoxy via some sort of exclusive Patriarchal supremacy fiat, a house divided against itself shall not stand and a tree is known by its fruit comes to mind. We know the Orthodox Church will stand, again it’s a question of which Bishops and Priests will keep the true faith, just tolerate the situation or depart from the Orthodox Church and faith.
If the Church of Greece agrees with Bartholomew’s lawlessness then it is not the Russian Orthodox Church that has broken communion via the acknowledgement of that matter. God forbid that the Church of Greece should go that way.
Let us hope and pray that all the Bishops within the Church of Greece will rightly divide the word of God’s truth and that they will not cast their lots to divide the garments of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ betraying the Orthodox Church, the Orthodox faith and faithful. It is so very sad to say that, it seems they are at the point where they don’t even know better than to consider such a woeful way. Whoever the so-called theologians are that support such activities, they act as they will.
I would like to ask the hierarchy in the Church of Greece if Pontius Pilate also had geopolitical considerations at hand and if they could ever help Bartholomew, Elpidophoros and Epiphany Dumenko in an authentic conciliar manner?
Dear George, if you’re reading this, rejoice with me! An amazing thing has happened! Apparently all the rumors that the church of Greece would recognize the schismatic “OCU” were just that, rumors! Our prayers have been answered, glory to God! Apparently, the commission of bishops that the CoG tasked with researching the Ukranian issue strongly recommended that the CoG not recognize the so-called “OCU” contrary to many reports on the matter: https://spzh.news/ru/news/64578-komissii-elladskoj-cerkvi-vystupili-protiv-pcu–smi
So apparently, the synod CoG decided not to recognize the “OCU”, and instead pass the issue along to a broad synod that will consist of all the hierarchs of the CoG in October. As was expected previously. Glory to God!
https://spzh.news/ru/news/64591-elladskaja-cerkovy-rassmotrit-ukrainskij-vopros-v-oktyabre–smi
The CoG did put out a standard statement that it recognizes the “general right of the ecumenical Patriarchate to grant autocephaly” the synod made no decision whatsoever on the Ukranian issue.
https://www.romfea.gr/ekklisia-ellados/31173-oloklirothikan-oi-ergasies-tis-dis-anakoinothen
If you are reading this George, rejoice! Our prayers have been answered, the CoG resisted the terrible pressure being set against it (for now). Give great glory to God!
Thank you, Randy, for making my day (my week, my month, my year, my decade. . .)! If this is true, glory be to God for all things! Everyone should be expressing their opinion on the matter so they’ll have plenty of information upon which to draw when they next meet to put this matter to bed.
God bless you Randy! You lifted me out of the funk I had this morning when I read in He Kathemerini that the CoG was “looking positively” at recognizing Dumenko’s outfit.
For what it’s worth, I’m sure that Dino is correct about his grandfather’s village. Stalin was a complete piece of work.
The shame should fall on Western intellectuals who lionized him even after it was obvious that he was a greater murderer than Hitler.
“I’m sure that Dino is correct about his grandfather’s village. Stalin was a complete piece of work. ”
George, it is a non sequitur. With all respect, I neither denied not confirmed, I only asked where it happened, and when.
I know. I always have to get my digs in regarding Stalin and the Western toadies and flunkies who thought that the sun, moon and stars rose and set in his backside.
People like Paul Robeson, Lillian Hellman, Dashiel Hammett, traitors in the State Dept during the FDR and Truman administrations, Dalton Trumbo and other leftists in Hollywood. Joe McCarthy was right and the proto-RINOcucks who took him to task back then were wrong. Someday, I hope to see McCarthy’s reputation burnished.
Also pernicious was Harilaos Florakis, nom de guere Kapetan Yiotis, whose war crimes in central were recently covered by National Herald.
Dino Tsortanidis,
“I have never said the EP was my hero, please do not put words I my mouth.”
I am sorry Dino, I do not mean it literally, but kind of. “I do imagine, I am a much greater sinner than the EP”.
May be, but guess what?
St.J.Chrysostom said he believes that most presbyters and bishops will go to Hell, because they have promised so many things and have not done them! (Homily on Acts).
“So as long as we don’t go under Rome, I’ll wait”,
You are forgetting that prevention is easier than cure:
If we do go under Rome we will need to shed blood of millions of people to get out! Are you serious?
” and more importantly, worry more about my salvation, than his.”
Chrysostom again says it is not “either or” but “both” in the correct sequence.
We must worry about our salvation and then that of the others as well!
John,
“talk on this blog encouraging individuals to leave Greek Orthodox parishes is very divisive.”
Is it REALLY more divisive than this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0PSYG30BRY
Everyone should read and reread Monk James’ 8/30/19 post about how tithing brings about church growth. We all need to walk the talk.
I COMPLETELY AGREE! (Sorry for the all-caps.)
Well, George, since you feel THAT strongly about it, and since my original post was buried pretty deeply in this thread, here it is again by popular demand!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Monk James Silver says
August 30, 2019 at 10:29 am
Nate (August 29, 2019 at 11:43 pm) says:
OCA priests are paid a salary by their parish. ROCOR priests work a secular job in addition to serving as priests, for which they do not get paid! Priests, according to the Bible, should not be paid. So the fact that the OCA can offer more services at the parish level is due to that, and only that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
‘Nate’ is mistaken here.
The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America requires that parishes pay their priests a professionally competitive salary plus befits plus reimbursement of expenses incurred in their pastoral work, yet the parishes of the GOA provide very few liturgical services apart from the Morning Service and Divine Liturgy on Sundays and major feasts. So, obviously, the GOA doesn’t fit the template ‘Nate’ suggests is normative for America.
Then, there are a great many parishes and missions of the Orthodox Church in America which are served by priests who hold secular jobs to support their families, so the OCA doesn’t fit the template offered by ‘Nate’ here, either.
Altogether, this structure seems to be a figment of his imagination.
BTW: The OCA has noticed, over time, that parishes without a full-time priest simply stagnate. I suspect that others have observed this, too.
In any event, here’s some food for though.
About twenty years ago (I think), the Baptists came up with a formula for church growth. The basic recipe is that ten tithing families can start a parish, twenty tithing families can support a full-time pastor, and thirty tithing families can do outreach and mission work.
We have it on Someone’s good authority: ‘Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.’
Forget about whether or not tithing is ‘required’ of Christians. Do you want the Church to grow and be there for you, or not? Give generously of your time, treasure, and talent ‘Give in full measure, pressed down and overflowing’ says the Lord.
Sow generously, reap abundantly!
Agreed!
Oh, good!
I’ll remember this occasion for the times when we disagree.
May they be few and far apart, God bless us all!
BTW: I neglected to ask ‘Nate’ why he thinks that the Bible prohibits priests from being paid for their pastoral work.
Response, please, ‘Nate’?
Some folks would be amazed how many quite small congregations, often of various conservative Protestant branches, support one or more full-time missionary couples who serve overseas, and who have done this for generations. It just all depends on how committed you are.
Some things bear repeating. This is one of them.
Open letter of Archpriest Georgiy ASHKOV on
The crisis of the Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox Churches in Western Europe (ecumenical patriarchate)
http://www.exarchat.eu/IMG/pdf/OPEN_LETTER_ENGLISH.pdf
In many ways, the present situation of the Archdiocese of Russian Tradition in western Europe is reminiscent of the crisis they faced when they first came into existence: How to remain Russian without succumbing to the same communist pressures as the patriarchate of Moscow, and how to stay Orthodox without violating sound ecclesiology.
A century ago, the patriarchate of Constantinople stepped in to bridge the conceptual and practical gaps created outside of Russia by the bolshevik revolution. But now, Cple and Moscow are no longer in communion because of Cple’s violation of canonical principles. Moscow is making missionary (?) inroads in western Europe at the expense of the ROCOR and adding to the confusion of the faithful, while Cple has disbanded its archdiocese of Russian tradition in western Europe, orphaning both clergy and laity.
The parishes and other structures which Cple abandoned in this shameful game of church chess have to do something to regularize their situation, and neither Moscow nor Cple is coming to their assistance except in the most predatory fashion.
As a result, and as lined out in his open letter, Fr Georgiy Ashkov is pretty basically calling for the archdiocese to reorganize itself along the lines of the Orthodox Church in America, in effect creating ‘the Orthodox Church in Western Europe’, transcending national boundaries.
This is even more closely analogous to our situation in North America, because the western European archdiocese — while retaining a certain ‘Russian’ character, especially in its liturgical practice — now comprises people of many different languages and ethnic backgrounds. They are no more ‘Russian’ than they are ‘Greek’. They are who they are, where they are, when they are, now and not a hundred years ago.
I can be wordy, but Ashkov’s letter is long even by my standards. Yet he isn’t wasting words, and his letter is well worth the time it takes to read. People will be amazed to see how conceptually close his recommendations come to the very same principles which necessitated and finally created the OCA.
May the Lord’s good Spirit lead them on level ground!
And they always said we were too immature to have our own Church but in spite of all the problems with multiple jurisdictions and having to report to various Mother Churches, our bishops managed to work together anyway and stay in communion with one another. Maybe we aren’t in such bad shape.
Amen.
Brother James,
As laudable as an Orthodox Church in Europe project may be, the latest moves from Fener undercut the proposition and it’s off the table for next Saturday’s Council. Bart and his buddy pastors of all the Greek churches in Turkey (the ruined and shuttered ones, and also those underwater) have preempted the Rue’s sobor very effectively problematizing status of Diocese and hierarch. All at the cost of a postage stamp!
I say effectively because phanariots know the weak mettle of the rue Daru, that they put as much stock in bureaucratic paperwork to define the rue Daru’s ecclesial existence as the Fener does its own rights and prerogatives. It’s no accident that has twice brought the French Orthodox to Fener and the Greek gentlemen there sipping their demitasse cups of Turkish coffee ‘have the rue’s number’.
The effect of the Istanbul Synod’s decision to ‘generally release’ Abp. Jean and Metr. Emmanuel’s demand the French commemorate his own Eminence instead will not be negligible. We shall see if the rue Daru has the strength of their convictions to stand by their Abp. and do the necessary thing to stay together as Church — which at this point looks like holding their noses and affiliating with Moscow along the very generous terms they’ve outlined.
An OCE would be a good thing indeed but at this juncture a non-starter.
I honestly and truly don’t want to read your opinions about church government unless and until you retract the libelous accusation you made about the Orthodox Church in America here the other day, not to mention the insults you hurled at other people:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Claes (September 2, 2019 at 1:40 pm) says:
Nikolai,
You must certainly be avoiding creepygreek clergy altogether to remain ignorant of the legendary 1970 payoff of the impecunious OCA to the MP to ‘purchase its uncanonical autocephaly’ from the church that was always looking for ways to spend its state-granted rubles. I’ve heard this from virtually every GOARCH member, clergy and lay.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Maybe write again after you clean up that mess, and we’ll correspond.
BTW: I haven’t been ‘Brother’ James since 19March 1978 when I was tonsured. Just so you know, since you like to be precise.
Ioannis,
Thank you for posting this. The Russian Exarchate is going through troubling times. May God lead them to loving archpastoral protection, which C’ple is not offering (and probably is not capable to offer anyone).
C’ple is only offering them their same narcissistic, megalomaniacal “we don’t give a crap about you, but you must glorify us” shtick that, tragically, C’ple is all too good at.
C’ple abruptly dismissed Archbp Jean, and then Met. Emmanuel of Paris comes in and “demands” commemoration! I can’t think of anything more dramatically exemplifying of what is *not* a good shepherd. The sheep don’t know him and won’t follow him.
From pravosavie.ru/English:
“Metropolitan Emmanuel (Adamakis) of Gaul of the Patriarchate of Constantinople is demanding that the French parishes of the Archdiocese of Russian Churches in Western Europe commemorate him as their ruling bishop, reports the French outlet Orthodoxie.
His order comes after the Patriarchate of Constantinople released His Eminence Archbishop John of Chariopoulis, the ruling hierarch of the Archdiocese. As Abp. John explained, he had never even requested a canonical release, and the decision came as a surprise to him, just as had the Synod’s November decision to revoke the Archdiocese’s exarchate status, with instructions for the Russian-tradition parishes to move under their local Greek metropolitans.”
Fr Georgiy Ashkov’s letter is deep and important, though I don’t think the Russian exarchate will survive on its own. It doesn’t even have any bishops advocating for itself, other than the now-dismissed Archbp Jean. In that sense, Monk James, its situation is quite different from the OCA’s situation of 50-60 years ago, which had a synod of bishops as well as charismatic and internationally well-known clergy leaders.
His suggested new name for the European ecclesiastical body is a mouthful, though: “The Orthodox Church of the Russian Tradition in Western Europe Based on the Statutes of the Moscow Council of 1917-1918” !
That even beats the OCA’s name prior to 1970 (“The Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church of America.”)
Godspeed to the Russian exarchate in their assembly this coming Saturday. Sept. 7th. May God strengthen them and grant them the wisdom to disregard and completely ignore Met. Emmanuel and C’ple!
Good to see you here again, Peter!
RE: “Schism is not the answer. 2 wrongs do not make a right. So as George says lets try to love one another, pray for one another and keep the temperature to a reasonable degree.”
I must disagree. The MP’s and ROCOR’s ceasing eucharistic communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople and its subsidiary jurisdictions, though personally painful for yours truly with my many colleagues and friends in those jurisdictions, is an act of tough love–the only language the “first among equals” knows how to respect.
______________________________________________
Hello Father,
The only language both Moscow and Constantinople understand is a synod of their brothers chastising both of them for getting and allowing them to get used and manipulated bu by their respective secular states and get pushed around by a bunch of Ukrainian Nazis.
What the EP has done is wrong, but breaking communion instead of marshalling their fellow bishops into a counsel is a failure of love. Not tough love but Christian love. At some point they should both agree to follow the Gospel.
In any event its good to talk to you again as well.
God love you.
Peter,
“The only language both Moscow and Constantinople understand is a synod of their brothers chastising both of them for getting and allowing them to get used and manipulated bu by their respective secular states and get pushed around by a bunch of Ukrainian Nazis.”
The only language Bartholomew should understand is the spirit of the canons and not the letter of the canons he learnt in the Jesuit-founded School in Italy when he was a young Orthodox deacon (read his biography in EP site).
The MP has shown B. (the hard way) what the facts are: This is not the 4th century AD:
Cple is NOT the Capital of the largest Orthodox country ANY MORE.
MP has (unfortunately for us Greeks) the current de-facto status the Cple had in the 4th century AD.
Moscow now (and Beijing after 100 years) has similar characteristics of congregation size and being the “reigning” (basileuousa) city (Capital, with government) of most of the Orthodox Christians.
Please read Canon 28 very carefully, read what is the PRACTICAL importance of its location at any time in history. Read the interpretation/comments by St. Nicodeme.
After all, the real “Mother of Churches” is Sion/Jerusalem as we sing on Saturday evening in tone 8 (written by St.John Damascene, +750).
Jerusalem was the very first Church, and
its first Bishop was none less than the brother of the Lord!
The “headship’ of Constantinople came centuries later (like Rome previously) because it was (THEN) located in the Capital of the Empire, ie purely for CIVIL reasons and benefits!
Nevertheless, Bartholomew prefers to ignore all that, and play the big leader, like the Pope (his beloved brother).
MP decided the ultimate solution is a tough language.
Let us hope and pray that Bartholomew, nearing the end of his life, sees the truth, becomes as a simple, loving, and humble Bishop, to bring peace in the Church and save his soul.
Amen