Presbyterian Church to Ordain Gays as Ministers

“Thus says the LORD: ‘Stand by the roads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.’ But they said, ‘We will not walk in it’” (Jeremiah 6:16).

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Source: Yahoo News | HT: Journey to Orthodoxy

CHICAGO (Reuters) – The Presbyterian Church voted on Tuesday to allow the ordination of gays, becoming the fourth Protestant denomination in the United States to make the move that experts say reflects a larger cultural shift.

The debate over whether gays should be ordained as ministers has led to sharp divisions within several Protestant faiths. Some 100 congregations out of 11,000 have left the Presbyterian church in the past five years, including a few large ones, church sources said.

A majority of the 173 regions, or presbyteries, supported the long-debated change in the constitution of the 2.3-million member Presbyterian Church (USA) that will permit gay candidates to be ordained clergy, elders and deacons, church sources said.

The move eliminates a requirement in the constitution that clergy live “in fidelity within the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman, or chastity in singleness.”

The 87th, and deciding, vote was cast on Tuesday by the liberal Minneapolis-St. Paul presbytery. Already, 19 presbyteries that voted against a similar amendment two years ago had switched sides.

“They’re making this change amid a larger cultural change. General public opinion on gay rights is trending pretty dramatically in the liberal direction,” said Mark Chaves, a professor of sociology, religion and divinity at Duke University.

“There is no practical reason to do it,” such as a shortage of ministers, Chaves said. “It’s a matter of principle on both sides.”

Chaves said his father, a voting member of his presbytery, was persuaded to vote for it due to the vitriol of opponents.

Other mainline Protestant denominations in the United States to drop their prohibitions on gay clergy are the United Church of Christ, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and The Episcopal Church. The move by The Episcopal Church has opened rifts in the American church and in the larger Anglican Communion to which it belongs.

The United Methodist Church, a mainline Protestant denomination, continues to wrestle over the issue. The United Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church broke new ground in the mid-1950s when both faiths approved the ordination of women.

(Editing by Jackie Frank)


  1. They’re heretics anyway.

  2. prophetessanna says

    Wonder what Calvin would say to this revoltin development?

  3. Christopher says

    Phew. They’re just catching up to us. We’ve been ordaining these people for years.

  4. Fr. Blues says

    And what does this have to do with the OCA and GOA? At least the Protestant sects are being honest about their apostacy, unlike the Eastern Orthodox Church. If the hierarchy of the OCA and GOA are going to turn a blind eye to this trend within their own clergy, my guess is that the laity of the 4 Protestant sects will have more respect for their clergy than the laity of the OCA and GOA. LORD have mercy!

    • Yeah, “more honest.” Folks in the Episcopal Church (TEC) used this euphemism too when a homogenitally active bishop was confirmed against the plain teaching and canons of the church.

      Only problem is, the Presbyterians (PCUSA) have not officially decided that homogenital sex is ok. For example, there is no provision for same-sex marriage anywhere in the religion. They haven’t even gotten around to discussing this issue yet, and will find that there is widespread disagreement when they do.

      So what precisely are they being more honest about? Having homogenitally active clergy? Not exactly, they did not come out and endorse that in words. Instead they simply changed a clear statement requiring sex only in marriage (and “chastity” otherwise) to some vague statement that candidates must be determined to be good Christians living in a Christian way.

      It is a huge stretch to call that honesty. It is obfuscation of the most sophisticated sort. And the sort of thing the gay rights movement has honed to a high art over the years. This is part of the extra-sexual corrupting influence the movement has had on the culture at large. They convince institutions to essentially disrespect their own mechanisms for shared decision making (things like constitutions), and they win “the game” via an end run behind the referee’s back that breaks the rules everyone has already agreed to follow. Although this is a mild example of that pattern of behavior, this kind of tactic leaves an institution gutted. Not even those who are left (the “winners”) can take the institution very seriously anymore.

      Incidentally, The Episcopal Church still doesn’t officially support same-sex marriage or lifelong domestic partnerships. Eight years after the “gay bishop” decision, there has been no official change to the teachings about marriage that are written down in words and approved by the church. They did ask a committee to study the matter of same-sex blessings and put together some liturgical materials — not that the religion has decided God approves of even same-sex blessings mind you; rather, just in case God makes up his (or her) mind soon, they do want to be prepared (you know, the Spirit working in mysterious ways and all). But the committee assigned to this task is finding it terribly difficult without any theological rationale to guide their work — I mean they have admitted as much and are having to try to make up new church teachings as they go along. The discussion and discernment simply has not happened yet for the religion to be able to say exactly what it believes about homogenital sex and why … Or I should say, the religion is clearly acting in ways that contradict its stated teachings.

      That sounds a lot more like confusion and hypocrisy to me than honesty.

      • Fr. Blues says

        UM: Just because the TEC and the PCUSA have not “officially” promulgated their sanctioning of gay clergy and same sex unions does not negate the fact that in effect by their “vote” they have openly approved such apostacy. Your argument is the same as the fact that the United States of America has not officially recognized “undocumented aliens” as US citizens, but accords them all the benefits of citizenship is pathetic. Let’s call a spade a spade, the end result is the same.

        I’ve been Orthodox for over 10 years now and as far as I can tell, in this country there is not a dimes worth of difference between protestans and orthodox. If my memory serves me correctly, (and I believe it does) the apostles condemned such actions and told the faithful they should remove such persons from their midst. St. Paul did not condemn them for not “officially” voting on the matter, he condemned them for allowing such persons in their community.

        Your argument is the same as the Pharisees (ie. lawyers); lets apply the “letter of the law” and forget about the “spirit of the law”. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid friend. The OCA and GOA are both headed down the same road based on what I can gather.

        • Sorry, I should have provided a clearer bridge from your post to mine, as per my advice to Harry Coin the other day.

          I agree with your assessment that TEC and PCUSA are in a state of apostasy (which strictly speaking means they have “abandoned or renounced a religious belief”), and that the Orthodox churches are at best only a few years behind them on the same road. I’m also sympathetic to your frustration with your Orthodox churches for believing they are superior to these Protestant churches and therefore need not concern themselves with such earthly matters. Many in TEC were just as naive, what with bishops maintaining apostolic succession and all. An astounding number in TEC are still delusional that things will “work themselves out” eventually “because we are the Church.”

          My point was peripheral to your main point: I just wanted to clarify that one cannot credit TEC and PCUSA with honesty in their apostasy. Most of them will claim they haven’t abandoned or renounced anything. And if you look strictly at what is written down in words, they haven’t changed a lot yet. One needs knowledge of what isn’t spoken or written overtly to understand what is going on. I don’t doubt they will change what is written down eventually. But it is going to take them a while to come up with something coherent to say.

          • Fr. Blues says

            Um. Sorry for the knee-jerk reaction to your original post. I truly need to quit reading all of these blogs about the politics in Orthodoxy. It certainly has not done anything to contribute to the wellness of my soul. God bless!

            • No apology necessary. I just wanted to clarify.

              Having left TEC, I understand your concern for your own spiritual health. Obviously you have to put that first. Personally I’m going to have to step back from posting so much here. This isn’t even my church.

              At the same time, if your church is to enjoy a different (hopefully better) outcome, it will come from facing these challenges head on. As best I can tell, TEC had more resources for addressing these challenges than the OCA does. But the gay rights movement saw a non-confrontational culture they could exploit and frankly they just wanted TEC more than the small ‘o’ orthodox did. The whole religion capitulated with the equivalent of a whimper. If God does choose to help you overcome these challenges, it will speak volumes about who you really are. Beyond that, it may make believers out of some of us who are wishing you the best from the sidelines.

    • Fr Blues, if you are an OCA priest, were you a priest back in the days when there were bishops on the Holy Synod who were practicing homosexuals and it was tolerated? Not to single you out, I invite any priest reading this to come out and speak to the little sheepies so we can know. You can remain anonymous so your job isn’t threatened. I would like to know whether the priests generally knew this was happening, and if so, why did you allow it to continue without raising your voices? Are you not accountable to Almighty God to care for your sheep, especially if the head shepherds are hanging out in bars and brothels instead of tending the flocks? And secondly, did you or any of the priests suspect that Mark Stokoe was gay but didn’t say or do anything about it? What if your bishop was a practicing homosexual and you knew it? Would you continue to fawn over him like so many priests and parishes do, putting him at the best place at the table and squeezing and bowing and kissing his soft, pudgy hand? If so, why? I’m just a lay person and I figured out five years ago that Mark Stokoe, esq. was gay, and I also suspected my bishop was a homosexual. It used to make me a bit queasy. But if I had said anything, I would have been tarred, feathered, and derailed right out the door. Shunning is not nice for the shunnee. Take care, Rachel, don’t let your anger show. Sheep don’t get angry. BUT I SURE AM! Father Zaccheus Wood shook that ridiculously edited videotape in Father Kondratick’s face and screamed, “THIS IS MY INSURANCE!” Insurance against what? Being exposed?!! Okay, so I go to Orthodox Forum and there they are attacking Monk James again. It’s just unbelievable. Stop doing that, you are making yourself look foolish and eventually all that self-righteous, hypocritical judging is going to catch up with you. Yes, I’m hurt, and yes, I’m angry.

      -Rachel, a good name to have. Holy Rachel pray to God for us! I’m sorry you have to cry so much.

  5. So….

    Getting off the topic of the sad situation of the Presbyterians,
    When do we stop all the hours of blogging and actually do something about the current situation in the OCA?

    • Janet Kirby says

      George, there is to be a town hall meeting at OCA’s St. Seraphim’s Cathedral in Dallas tomorrow; perhaps that meeting should be the first of many across our country. There are many issues that the PanOrthodox Church in America needs to address, not just swept under the table as in the past. The real problem will be in speaking the truth in love, not singling out any particular sin or sinner. There must be a way to develop safeguards and policies that safely welcome all types of sinners into the church. For instance, we should never allow a priest to be alone with a minor, especially not teenagers. There are apparently many other traditions, such as monks having cell attendants, and monks taking group baths, that create the public image of impropriety.

      • I concur with this. Every cathedral in every diocese should be requesting town halls with their bishops!

      • Bishops having young men living in their rectory with them, inviting young men to their home for movies and popcorn, who knows what else… stuff like that just looks unseemly, ya know?

        Here’s a paragraph from a link to Orthodox Missions web site that mentions one “Gregory Solak.”

        “Other SVS students spent summers or extended periods in Alaska as well: Fr John Shimchick, Fr Steven Voytovich, Fr John Jillions, Protodeacon Eric Wheeler, Hieromonk Sergios (Gerken), Fr Serge Bouteneff, Fr Vasily Lickwar, Fr John Udics, Jerry Tarris, Gregory Solak, and Diane Scott Farah.

        Additionally, SVS alumni Bishop Benjamin (Peterson) and Fr Michael Oleksa served as deans of St Herman Seminary for periods of time. Hieromonk Yakov Nikolai also served at St Herman in various capacities, and Mark Harrison was both the librarian and an instructor at the seminary.”

        Don’t know if he’s the same Greg Solak mentioned in the “letter.” But it is information of some sort.

        • Oh no! I just found this link:

          It is true then, that Gregory Solak died. He was director of the octet that toured the US and Canada in 1983. I am so sorry… Oh Lord, make his memory eternal.

          • Rachel,
            Do you know Gregory Solak personally?

            • Bishop Tikhon (Fitzgerald) says

              Sarah, that’s an awful question! Gregory Solak, of blessed memory, fell asleep in acute alcoholism some years ago in Alaska. That he suffered from alcoholism was known long before he ended up in Alaska living with his friend, Vincent/Fr. (now Bishop) Benjamin Peterson. I have no idea how Fr. Peterson reconciled Gregory being invited to Alaska to direct the choir at the Anchorage cathedral. One can hardly think of a place MORE contra-indicated for a confirmed alcoholic to move to than Alaska: maybe Moscow? But they had a lot in common, after all, as it turned out. I remember when Archdeacon Vincent was still in L.A., and I was looking around for a good choir director. I remembered that when Gregory Solak visited L.A. as director of the SVS Summer Octet, he was the first (and ONLY) Octet director to keep the Octet on pitch throughout the Liturgy and post-Liturgy concert. As Archdeacon Vincent belonged to the same octet, I asked him “What about Gregory Solak, son of the well-known Fr. Nicholas Solak? Is he available, by any chance.” Archdeacon Vincetn said, “No..” And he went on to tell me that Gregory, tragically, had become a confirmed alcoholic.” I forgot about him for years, except in prayer. But when I learned that he had been given the choir directing job in Alaska, i was floored. “How,” I asked myself, “could Father Vincent, knowing of Gregory’s illness, even consider allowing that to happen?” I guess Father Vincent may have thought that relieving his own loneliness would make it worth taking a chance…………Indeed, Jane Rachel, may the memory of Gregory, servant of God, be eternal!

              • Jane Rachel says

                Oh, what can I say? What can I say?

              • Bishop Tikhon (Fitzgerald) : Gregory Solak is my father. I still think of him in present tense because he will never not be my father, although I realize my question was misstated. I thank God daily for his chance to serve in such a place. He adored Alaska and frequently told my brother and I of his wonderful experience and friendships there. We were certainly sheltered from knowing his true illness and the effect it had on the community. I appreciate you blunt honesty. Since my father’s passing when I was 11, I have come to realize his passions and the people that he affected by his selfish decisions. I am unaware of my father’s accomplishments because his alcoholism seemed to negatively taint most achievements. I don’t follow this post regularly so I missed your comment months ago. Please feel free to email me. I’d love to speak with those who knew my father since I feel like my time with him was so limited, I never fully understood him.

      • I’m wondering if +Marks mistake so far with the DOS is that he has failed to recognize that it was built and brought to its success by its founder, Archbishop +Dmitri, based on the unfailing principle of leadership by example and mutual love and trust, and not by dictates. +Marks style so far seems to be the exact opposite.

      • Harry Coin says

        OCA folks: DO NOT think you are alone in this– the others have it just as badly only fewer people care enough to deal with it. Oh yes, ‘bishops’ offering younger men who later turn out to be gay tickets to operas, sports events with them, etc. Recall the GOA near bishop down south who took a fine looking young man to rock concerts, oh yes.

        You get credit for talking about what the rest do not want to see, but is seen by those considering joining.

        Is the church *for* its leadership? Because that’s where the leaders driving our project in the USA have been taking us. Whether *for* the fellow in turkey, *for* Syosset and its plans, *for* your choice of Englewood, Damascus, Moscow, etc.

        All that money flowing out all those years, zero to fewer new faces and our kids leaving. When the bishops don’t have kids, I guess it matters enough to talk about but not to actually change for.

  6. This is just another pebble in the larger trend of protestantism baptizing cultural mores in order to remain “relevant”.

    In Orthodoxy, our risk is that our own lavender community will do the same thing, but sotto voce. In other words, not come out and openly endorse (that would sever communion with the rest of the Orthodox world), but tacitly accept. That is what we have now, I think. It’s a ridiculous position to be in.

  7. Brian Jackson says

    Who is the woman portrayed in the thumbnail image for this post?

    • George Michalopulos says

      I don’t know Brian and neither does my tech guy so I changed the picture.

  8. Let’s pray for all the Presbyterians who are truly struggling with this decision. Eventually, they will have to make a choice if they will stay with their denomination or break away. It is personally a very hard thing to wake up one morning to discover that the Church you grew up in, no longer exists.

    I know faithful Presbyterians, who may differ with me when it comes to how we understand the nature of the Church, but we still love Christ and truly we grieve over the direction of their historic Church.

    God is always giving us opportunities to be who we are called to be, but we must also be ready to seize those opportunities when they are given. Stokoe strikes again at the legitimacy of the OCA by compromising us with his lifestyle. The OCA will say nothing of any importance on this decision.

    How sad it is when such events take place in Christendom and the OCA is morally limp to stand up and say “BRAVO” to those who oppose such a decision. No chance of that since Jonah is silenced from speaking out by Benjamin and Stokoe and a hapless Synod that is more concerned with reacting to being called “bad names” discovered by stealing emails than rising above such things to proclaim the Truth. How far we have fallen and how quickly since 2006.

    • Christopher says

      a very hard thing to wake up one morning to discover that the Church you grew up in, no longer exists.

      While I agree with the spirit of your post (and still to this day pray for my formal Episcopal ‘church’) let’s be honest, it is VERY VERY hard to “wake up one morning” and just notice this. The decline has been happening a long time and the signs were there, even for those with very thick glasses…

    • Ashley Nevins says

      They will split. They are Pro-test-ant. What protests splits from what is corrupt and without solution.

      If it stops protesting itself it becomes what it no longer protests. It becomes a corrupt, failed, irrelevant and dying church that is circular without solution. Their structure and system is based upon protest that is humility and service centered and if they move away from that structure and system to power and control that cannot protest they will surely die.

      The gay church agenda is an agenda of power and control. It is PC church and if you protest it you are wrong and it is PC right. Being PC right is their power and control and it is their ORTHODOXY. It is in power and control by its morality and ethics that are PC. You know, like the EOC is Gods only right and true church of power and control and that is its ORTHODOXY. We all see the ethics and morality of EOC power and control outcome.

      Any church that lets power and control into its church will destroy itself over time. It will destroy humility and service as its church basis and replace it with power and control as its church basis. You know, like when the so called Orthodox merged with the Roman state of power and control and turned Christianity into church/state totalism power and control. You know like the gay agenda of power and control for the power and control based OCA and GOA. It only makes sense.

      Orthodox, you are not being shown what a gay agenda for a church does to a church. You are being shown what a power and control agenda does to a church. If the agenda is power and control of any kind that agenda will turn the church into a corrupt failure over time. Period.

      Real protest has real results that are a straight line to solution. Protest that is really not protest is circular without solution. That kind of carnal immature flake protest is really just whinning, complaining and gossiping and it does this because it is circular without real protest solution. It is the baby that still drinks liquids and cannot get onto solid food. It cries for its bottle all the time and operates like a spoiled brat without any parental supervision that is mature and grown up. I can’t change its own diapers and it reeks of that.

      The Orthodox do not have a moral or ethical leg to stand on to speak into this issue in this church. They are circular without solution by how I explained that.

      Yes, pray that they split! Lol, and don’t pray that the EOC in America split from their corrupt, failed, irrelevant and dying state of church that is circular without solution. You people crack me up to no end. Orthodox unity is held together by corruption. It is funny by how it acts that lifestyle of church out and then claims to be Gods only alone right and one true church on the planet by how that unity holds them together so they never split.

      Not unlike the OCA the only way of escape this denomination now has is to split the church by real protest that is objective about what destroys them. They by their basis, if it is not left for power and control as their basis, have a far better chance of finding health, safety and relevancy than does the OCA that is circular without protest solution and cannot split for fear it will be a break of unity that is its corruption without solution. It only makes good Orthodox sense that they don’t split over such things. Their unity in corruption over mission and evangelism as unity is their hearts desire and they get exactly their hearts desire out of that. Oh, yes, you all do too.

      Safety, health and relevancy splits from what is usafe, unhealthy and irrelevancy. What is healthy splits from what is toxic. What is healthy splits from what is sick. What is solution splits from what is circular without solution. If it does not split it becomes what it did not split from. That is the EOC today.

      I pray that the EOC splits from power and control irrelevancy to find humility and service relevancy. If they don’t then the EOC most surely will die a slow, ugly and painful death of corruption without solution.

      Just think, if the OCA does not split it gets a homosexual as its defacto Met and all his bishop minions will enable and support him is his agenda for the OCA. Just think, if the GOA does not split it gets at least 5 of its 8 bishops as homosexuals leading the church. America’s two largest jurisdictions should merge into one unified gay agenda church of power and control. Yes, form Pan Orthodox Unity around such men and let’s see where you END by the super centralized power and control it leads you into.

      Shhh, keep this a big Orthodox closed system secret. You are only as sick as your secrets. Don’t tell anyone that truth or you might split from it rather than use it as your unity that is your truth. The system at all costs must remain closed to hold its unity together. Don’t let the secret out or the church might divide away from what its true unity is and find real Christian unity in a humility and service based church that is no longer a corrupt and failed power and control based church. Wouldn’t want that secret out. It might cause divisive divison that destroys you unity before you destroy it all by yourselves being divisive corruption and failure you cannot split away from.

      Orthodox logic, rationality and reasoning is none of those things in the practical reality of the real world where Christ the divider of corurption and holiness really lives. Yes, Orthodox Christ salvation is your division from sin, but you cannot use that same salvation to divide yourselves away from the corrupt church failure that is sin. Let that be your unity that leads you into being the most safe, healthy, relevant, dynamic and living church on the planet. It is exactly what your claim to be as a church that tells the world that you are Gods only alone right and one true church of safety, health and relevancy.

      It will NEVER happen until you SPLIT from sin and stop using sin as your unity that is virtually destroying the EOC right before the very eyes of the Orthodox who by their power and control church do not have the power of humility and service to stop what kills their church dead. Period.

      This denomination if it splits for the reasons I explain to you here will survive and find renewal and new relevancy. It will take time for it to recover, but time is on its side by keeping humility and service as its basis that God can BLESS. I know senior pastors in this church. It will survive and then thrive in the years ahead and after it recovers.

      Boy, those fractured and dividing Prot’s don’t look at all as together as the Orthodox do and who never ever would think about dividing away from sin. What a unholy mess this is, right? It is all dirty and ugly and not Orthodox correct beautiful Orthodoxy and whose not corrupt and failed unity is its beauty in comparison to all churches not of it. Yes, throwing the evil one out by dividing away from his rule is not easy, nice or pretty. This is war and war is not pretty, easy or nice. It is the reality of the real world war between God and Satan.

      Gods divides Himself from Satan in that war, right, Orthodox?

      Orthodox here is a novel concept. God uses what divides itself from sin. That is salvation the last time I checked in with the Gospels. He cannot use sin to take the Great Commission as mission and evangelism forward with sin. What divides itself from sin is the salvation solution to any church corruption found on the level of this denomination. Salvation divides to unify in relevancy that lives. Sin unifies as it destroys by that unity of sin. Which one is a church end? Could the answer to the queston be more Gospels and NT simple?

      Salvation divides itself from sin that destroys salvation. If it does not the corrupted salvation cannot provide solution to what corrupts it. Salvation corrupted by sin cannot divide itself from the sin that corrupts it. It only makes sense. If salvation dies in a church the church dies along with it. Get it?

      What is the state of the EOC in America today? Living by its salvation or dying by its salvation?

      The answer is obvious to anyone who knows what a church living in alive salvation is. Only those who really know what alive salvation is will split from dead salvation that does not live.

      This is what the corrupt EOC failure tells me. NO DIVISON OVER SIN is your church solution and look at the consequences that brings. The state of your church is the state of its salvation corrupted by sin. The only way you are going to change this state of church is to divide into a new state of church that is not this state of church. True salvation that lives divides itself from false salvation that destroys. If it does not seperate itself false salvation will kill salvation that lives. False salvation is a liar, theif and murderer. It kills a church dead by lying about what true salvation is for the purpose of stealing true salvation that is solution away from the church and so that false salvation can murder the church dead.

      Depending on which one of the two salvations the EOC has will determine its outcome in the reality of the real Christian world where true salvation lives. I learned that by reading the long, wordy and prolific Gospels that show me how Satan through the salvation of the Sanhedrin tried to murder true salvation dead. It only makes sense.

      Ashley Nevins

  9. Geo Michalopulos says

    My concern is that this builds a momentum on its own. If so, then it’s going to be hard for Orthodox to “stand athwart history and yell Stop!” in Wm F Buckley’s famous phrase.

    • Christopher says

      It depends on not momentum so much as whether Orthodoxy can survive contact with western secular culture. Does it have the goods to remain principled? If so, then the momentum can never build in the first place.

      IMO, it is not doing so well so I reluctantly say no – at least in it’s current form. I think it will have to step back and try again. While I look for an American Church, I think the current effort is floundering…

      • Ashley Nevins says


        This is how the EOC stays PRINCIPLED and so it does not fall into the trap of the evil rational west that is based upon individual inalienable rights, freedom of religion, freedom of thought, freedom of speech and freedom based democracy. You know all the things that are not found in the EASTERN Orthodox church that is EASTERN anti rational thinking and irrelevancy in modernity.

        OK, here is the grand strategy to make sure the EO stay principled in the west and that will assure no evil allowed into Gods only alone right and true church…

        Become a more top down structure of totalism centralized power and control rule and at the same time become a more closed system of church that is more isolated and subjective. Become Pan Orthodox Unity that supersizes the the centralized power and control into more centralized power and control. Stay in the paradigm you are in and do not under any circumstances paradigm shift out of this paradigm. (It seems to be working for the RCC, right?)

        Simplicity is this. Problem solved by eastern thinking that is superior to the corrupt western thinking that threatens the principles of the EOC in America and whose principles are leading it into relevancy in our western rational modernity generation.

        Please, what is the next problem that Orthodoxy needs to solve? We can solve it by eastern thinking that is relevancy to itself inside of its closed system of closed stop think that cannot think outside of its eastern thinking to find solution to its corrupt, failed, irrelevant and dying state in western America.


        Ashley Nevins

        PS: I am chidding you to become relevancy outside of yourselves and that is not only relevancy to yourselves.

  10. Ashley Nevins says

    This is good news. Church splits work. They seperate the wheat from the chaff. The corrupt stay and the spiritually mature leave and move on too make a church that is not corrupt. I am glad this has been exposed in the wide open for all to see. You are as sick as what you hide, cover up and keep secret. The spiritually healthy leave and the sick stay. They have a way of escape by the split from corruption.

    Health leaves sickness because it knows contagious sickness makes health sick. Duh, how hard is that one? Yes, I know none of the Orthodox reading this have been made sick by their church. That is why it is sick without cure from them. They are too sick to leave by being made carnal, immature and powerless by the terminal illness killing them all. The sick can’t leave. They don’t have the strength to leave for being made so terminally sick that they can’t move from their death bed.

    Sin can’t leave sin for its love of sin. If you love the idol that makes you sick over God who is cure you church dies a painful and ugly death. You will not leave the idol of sickness for God the cure for believing the idol is the cure! When the sickness is your God then you are not only without cure, you are without escape from the idol. It only makes sense.

    Idols right worshipped and right believed in make the church sick without cure from the idol that is the sickness. When idolatry is your discipleship you can’t leave the idolatry for how it makes you so sick you can’t leave it. It is the only reality you know and so you stay sick in that sick reality believing that is the reality of God as a church.

    That is sick, sick, sick. It is the mind control of the idol clearly seen by anyone living in the reality of the real world. Those under the mind control cannot see it for how the mind control that is idolatry control is seen as their cure. Who is not going to leave the cure that provides no cure? Only those made sick by the mind control of the idol of no cure. Yes, I know I am not making any sense here. I am not of Orthodox sense, and so how can any of this make sense to those who are Gods only alone right and true sense from God?

    Orthodox, your life support mechicanisms no longer work. You are dying on your death bed and you have NO CURE. Yes, I know, my telling you that reality is me being harsh and not of Gods love towards you. Get a real Christian life Orthodox. Grow up to the reality of objective God and the reality of your church that is subjectively HARSH on all of you.

    Yes, I know, I am harsh on you and your church is not harsh on you. I am a wimp noodle compared to what your church is doing to all of you by it HARHNESS towards all of you. Come into the reality of the real world and see yourselves with objectivity that is not subjective denial of your true state of terminally ill church that has no cure. See the harshness of your church for what it really is. Yes, I know, it is harsh of me to tell you the harsh reality of your harsh church. So, do the Orthodox predictable. Shut down and don’t listen to the harsh reality of your harsh church for how harsh this expose’ of it is.

    I fully understand, personally, the harshness of your church. I know what it is I am talking about by personal experience. I am just reflecting back to you the reality of your harsh church and many of you think me harsh in how I do that by speaking reality of the real world to you. Unbelievable is the church of harsh coercision that is self destruction under its harsh treatment of itself. Why, it actually believes I am being harsh on it when it is self destructing by its own harsh treatment of its harsh self. That is hypocrisy that cannot tell the difference between straight up confrontation that can lead to church health over the harsh self destruction of your harsh church that has no church health. I speak real world graphic reality and the Orthodox do harsh. If the turth I bring you is harsh then the lie you are all believing that is your church treating you harsh is the harsh reality you have created for yourselves. I am not harsh. The reality of your harsh church is what is harsh. It is a harsh reality to hear, isn’t it.

    Yes, Orthodox stay with what is terminally ill and of the contagious systemic infection of church death. That will make you healthy. Does that make SENSE or has sense that is common been lost among the Orthodox? Is my rational reasoning off base here or does it make real world sense? Am I being too harsh on you with this truth of reality that is the harsh reality you have all created for yourselves?

    Church division of this kind I am speaking too here is healthy and right before God. Staying in a sick and corrupt church does not raise the healthy church up nor does it help anyone in the sick and corrupt church find way of escape. If you fellowship with corruption that is sick without solution it will make you as corrupt and sick as it is. That is NT common sense. Is it a reality that results in a harsh church?

    Yes, live in a church that can infect you with the plague and see it if does not make you as sick as the rat that bit you. Do not extreminate the rats and disease. Live right in the middle of the infection of death and see if it don’t kill your church dead. Don’t split from the place you live in and find a healthy place to live. Stay there and let it make you sick and then you too can spread the sickness to all that you know.

    The gay agenda for the church is an agenda of gay power and control rule over the church, and all of you know what I see power and control church to be. It is changing the structure and system of church from humility and service to power and control. Sexual corruption is in power and control and not holiness and integrity that are the character traits of humility and service. Anyone who stays in a sexually corrupt church is asking for the consequences of that.

    I know spiritually healthy and mature senior pastors of this denomination. They are splitting. They know better than to stay in what is now circular without solution. They want to protect their congregations from this and so they leave it. That is leadership that works. It takes the risk for Gods holiness and integrity over staying in the plague infested church of corruption that will make their people as sick as the gay power and control in the church. Leadership that is of God provides the people of God a way of escape from what can kill a church dead and even if that means leaving a church that refuses to find ethical and moral solution.

    That is the people of God over corrupt church. It is not corrupt church over the people of God. There is NO WAY that Jesus or any of the Apostles would not have removed themselves from such a church. In fact they did, it is was called the Sanhedrin. They split from what was SICK without solution to go to with what is healthy and is solution. That is Christian common Biblical sense. What Jesus and the Apostles split from is still going on today among spiritually mature and healthy Christians who know better than to be in fellowship with leven that can leven them.

    Staying in a church of sin that provides no way of escape is like living in a pressure cooker with both rotten and fresh food being cooked. How does the pot of food taste like when finished being pressure cooked melded together with rotten and fresh??? Is it something you would eat? Then why stay in a church of the same exact thing? Well, supposedly spiritually mature and healthy Orthodox, why stay in that pot that will only meld you into the rotten food? Why live in the church of the plague that has no cure?

    Yes, I know, the analogy does not fit the situation of the sick and corrupt dying state of the EOC that provides you now way of escaping it. The analogy is just too real world practical and thinking for itself for you to contemplate. It makes sense and so it must be ignored for the sense that makes your church corrupt and sick without solution. No one outside of your pressure cooker of rotten melded with fresh can tell you what the melding is doing to you by staying in that sickness and corruption. You have been melded and the melded only listen to what melds them. That is SICK by being superimposed by the sickness in the pressure cooker whose lid is welded shut and provides no way of escape.

    Lol, did the OCA presure cooker explode and splatter the melded mess all over the walls? Do not provide way of escape and that is exactly what happens. I got the objective proof that it does and that only the subjectively sick will deny. It is the OCA. Now subjectively deny the objective proof.

    There is NO WAY you can be discipled by a sick church and not be made sick by that discipleship. Who in their right Christian mind would want to be in a church that does that to them? Only those made sick by the sick discipleship will. Sick discipleship offers no way of escape from sick discipleship. The sick without cure cannot provide cure to the sick without cure. It only makes sense.

    This is a spiritual maturity and character IQ test post. Stay and let the church make you as sick and corrupt as it is or split and find health and relevancy away from it.

    Orthodox, do you pass the spiritual IQ test?

    Ashley Nevins

    • Christopher says

      This is good news. Church splits work. They seperate the wheat from the chaff. The corrupt stay and the spiritually mature leave and move on too make a church that is not corrupt

      Well said Ashley. Still could not read half of what you wrote but you are beginning to start your posts off well…

      • Ashley Nevins says

        This is the perfect opportunity to explain myself in a clear fashion that is not misunderstood or not understood…

        I fully understand why most all Orthodox who read me don’t understand all that I say. I think bottom up structure and open system and speak that language. The Orthodox are top down and closed system and speak that language. I speak in modernity Christianity terms and not in Orthodox terms. The two different languages think differently and so they speak differenlty. If I think and speak different than you do you will not understand all that I say.

        Those who come back and re-read me a few times learn the language over time. It’s like really scary what I am telling you and scary stuff is the most not understood of all that I tell you. I can also write in parable-like fashion on puropse at times. It’s not always easy to figure out what it is I am really saying. A thinking for yourself language is much harder to learn than a language that thinks for you.

        This is how I think and therefore how I speak and it is like a foreign language to the Orthodox:

        I am a Christian therefore I think for myself. I think for myself therefore I am a Christian.

        That is a radically different kind of Christian thinking and language than the Orthodox think and speak. The two systems speak two different languages by how they think two different ways. They almost think completely diametricially opposite to each other and that is a issue in understanding how I think and then speak how I think. Lol, do I speak how I independently think, and do you think for yourself think that I do!?! I speak independent Christianity. Orthodoxy speaks dependent Christianity. Think it through and you will understand why I say that.

        I think radical change to relevancy and what do the Orthodox think about that? They don’t think change to relevancy. They think no change is their relevancy. I see that radically different and so I speak a radically different language to its language. I speak the language of confrontation and not the language of status quo that cannot really confront itself. I am therefore highly offensive to the status quo that cannot think for itself to confront itself and the church goes into corrupt failure for its carnal immature inability to really confront itself in a way that leads to TRUE SOLUTION. It comes across with like it has an attitude problem, doesn’t it? Well, it does have an attitude toward the attitude problem of corrupt church failure. That is its attitude towards that attitude problem.

        My radical for Christ centered church relevancy thinking is radical to the not radical for Christ Orthodox and so many of them just turn that hearing switch OFF. I am in a word ‘OFFENSIVE’ to them. Yet, the corrupt and failed state of the EOC is far less offensive to them or that would RADICALLY change.

        Many do not want me here speaking in. I am offensive to them and yet what I speak into about the corrupt church failure is not really that offensive to them or they would go radical against it and radically change no matter who in the carnal corral didn’t like it. Yes, I am repeating myself on PURPOSE to sink the point in. I do that a lot.

        I will not speak Ortho-speak. I can, but I will not. It is not the language of relevancy Christianity and I talk relevancy Christianity. I speak what is relevancy to our modernity generation. If you ever come into a better understanding of me you will find that I love the edge of the cutting edge of Christian relevancy that speaks into our generation with church and ministry that is spiritual warfare the Orthodox are not in touch with by not being relevant to our generation and the spiritual warfare taking place in it.

        This is important to understanding what I write. I personally believe a church that is not taking a relevancy to our generation approach to spiritual warfare will be destroyed by that warfare it cannot fight against it by being irrelevant to know how to fight it and win over it. I believe you understand that sentence, right? Is that for you or is it against you? It’s the bottom line in my mind and as you have noticed I don’t mince words on the bottom line. Christianity needs all the warriors it can bring to this war and frankly the Orthodox are not in the war. What I see is the war destroying them for their not being relevant in it to fight against it.

        There is no offense intended by me in stating it like this. It is just the simple way I see it. I may sound like I am taking a me vs. you position. I am not. I take a tough no nonsense position in the face of wimps and nonsense. Yes, see how offensive that I am by stating it in no uncertain terms. I am confronting irrelevancy to its face. That is for you and not against you and even if it is tough to hear and at times highly saracastic.

        That does not make it any easier to understand. I think Jesus had a similar problem at times. It was not His problem though. He was modernity in His time that was speaking into the archaic of His time. He spoke the language of another paradigm that was not language of the paradigm He spoke into and so they did not always understand Him. What they did understand they did not like that much.

        In a word He was ‘OFFENSIVE’ to most of them. He was sarcastic towards their closed impossible minds that believed they were Gods only true salvation and structure and system of organization. They refused to listen and change and Christ simply left them where they were and by relevancy bypassed them. I see the near exact same thing happening to the Orthodox. Look at the church relevancy all around you and outside of you and then tell me different. You can stay in that paradigm of church and die or you can choose to paradigm shift to live. It will mean a radical change if your church truly wants to be relevancy to our generation.

        If that is offensive to you, then you are not hearing my real attitude in my concern for the EO.

        In other words, your church does not have to die. It can live. You can find solution. It will take a change in how you all THINK to do that. You will hear me use the word THINK alot. How a church THINKS determines its outcome. That is thinking to your outcome of success by changing how you think to success. That is for you and not against you. The only one who is against you is the Orthodox vs. the Orthodox. That is clear by the outcome of the EOC in America. It is the Orthodox decision to change how think to live or not change how they think and die. That is my message that is either not fully understand or is completely misunderstood.

        Lol, some believe I am about Protestant vs. Orthodox. No, I am about relevancy vs. irrelevancy. I am about how a church thinks and because how it thinks determines its outcome. How it thinks determines how it treats all of you. How well do all you good OCA laity folks of God feel about how your OCA is treating you? Here is an idea on how to stop that. HATE SIN. If you don’t have the hate of sin that sin that you do not hate will come to destroy your church and you will be powerless to stop it if you do not hate it to stop it.

        Am I speaking in terms that can be understand?

        Thanks for you input. Appreciated.

        Ashley Nevins

  11. Remember this?:

    Met. Hilarion Speaks at Highland Park Presbyterian, Dallas TX: No One Has Ever Seen God [AUDIO]
    It’s an outstanding talk; a cogent and uncompromising defense of biblical morality and teaching.


  12. “They seperate the wheat from the chaff.”

    Ashley, this is more appearance than reality. Permanent schism just separates one wheat/chaff confusion from another. Perhaps this is why the Lord told the reapers (his angels of judgment) in this parable to wait until full harvest before reaping. The the Lord Himself will do the separation. Meanwhile, as Solzhenitzyn observed about himself, the line between chaff and grain runs through the center of every human heart.

    • Amen, Karen.

    • Ashley Nevins says

      It was an analogy and not a Orthodox exact correctness on wheat and chaf. I fully understand the point you make. I do not disagree. However, it is not the point I am making and you well know that. You do understand the point I am making regarding not seperating from sin by your salvation that is seperation from sin, right?

      You addressed wheat and chaff in correct context outside of the analogy of it, but did you get the greater context of what I was really saying about church splits over sin (chaff)? If you focus on the micro I promise you will miss the macro. At least that is what Jesus told those He confronted.

      The Orthodox from what I have read and experienced believe my bottom up and open system Christianity is lessor Christianity than their top down and closed sysetm Christianity. You are finding a different perspective on what is and is not relevancy in Christianity that you have never heard before. I am not easy for any Orthodox to read. So, I fully understand your response.

      You do not become the most effective at mission and evangelism on the planet without understanding the difference between irrelevant dying church and relevant living church. That is not us vs. you. It is relevancy vs. irrelevancy in conceptual Christian thinking that can think for itself. It is the Orthodox choice to be relevancy or irrelevancy to our modernity generation. That is ALWAYS my point and the point is for you and not me vs. you. In reality, the Orthodox are Orthodox vs. Orthodox and that is why they fail. A closed system turns inward upon itself like nothing else can and that is irrelevancy. Yes, I know, it really bothers the Orthodox that I notice and especially since I am not an Orthodox.

      Are the EO in China yet? Just wondering how your mission and evangelism to the greatest mission and evangelism event on the planet in this century is going for you all. I suppose all of you will get there after this being the Orthodox century for America after 200 years here? Glad your bishops decided for you to be mission here last year after being here 200 years and after Christ in the Gospels already by His authority 2000 years ago makes us that everywhere we are found. Is 2000 years enough time to catch up with Jesus in the Gospels?

      Your bishops don’t think for you. You think for yourselves with Christ in the Gospels as your thinking, right? That permission from the bishops will make no difference in your outcome what-so-ever. The outcome is already CLEAR. Too little too late is your bishops who are not submitted to authority of the Gospels. The EOC outcome reveals that like nothing else can. You might consider by your salvation to seperate yourself from that sin and so that church relevancy can be found by your salvation?

      Is getting to China in the next century after you take over American Christianity this century your mission and evangelism strategy? You come in after the hardest work of mission and evangelism is done?

      Is that the EOC mission and evangelism vision or do I have it wrong? I really can’t find your vision that leads to goals, then to priorities, then to planning, then to application and then to relevancy outcome. I can’t seem to find your strategy that then leads to tactics and then to success. Am I missing something here? Maybe with all the chaff in the air I can’t see it? That was a macro analogy if you did not micro notice. It was a pun.

      Ashley Nevins

      • Ashley, you appear to navigate according to a faulty understanding of a few basic elements of seamanship. The Church is one, holy, catholic and Apostolic, built upon the Chief Cornerstone, Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God and son of Man by the Theotokos, according to the flesh. The authority of the bishops who confess this symbol of the faith subsists now and has always subsisted in the Apostolic succession, represented sacramentally by the laying on of hands; that has continued since the days of Sts. James, John, Peter and Paul. Likewise, the human government of the Church as the Body of Christ has always been invested primarily in the bishops, the successors of the Apostles. That’s top-down. It’s always been like that, from the first generation of the Church. So what’s up with this bottom up business you go on about? By the Grace of God there have always been called, chosen and faithful bishops and elders in the Orthodox Church, or it wouldn’t still exist. So it’s very much alive. Even Rome has its remnant, I think (although I’m not sure I would stake my life on that). Anyway, it would be blasphemy to suggest that the Holy Spirit is limited or constrained in any way by us sinful human beings or our church politics. He certainly is not.

        The Gospel is the good news of the Kingdom of God, announced by our Lord. There is only one Gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel(s) that you seem to be referring to, the books themselves(?), and the other NT books are written witnesses to the Gospel that came out of the early Church — not the other way around. Don’t you have that backwards, too?

  13. It is unfortunate that the Presbyterian Church in the United States has become the fourth Protestant denomination to allow gay ministers to be ordained.

    I expect the Presbyterian Church to lose thousands of its members as a result of this decision, just as was the case with the Episcopal Church for accepting gay and lesbian priests — and even bishops.

    This decision also is in complete contrast to Christ’s teachings with respect to marriage: “Marriage is a union of one man and one woman.”

  14. Jane (Rachel) says

    Hello, this is a test. I keep trying to post something longer, but it won’t go through.

  15. Jane (Rachel) says

    Okay, trying here, then. Hope this posts. If not, I’ll try later. There may be a reason it’s not posting.

    Letter to Monk James

    Monk James, I tried posting this two times under your recent comment on another of the entries, but it would not go through. I made several more comments in between the lines on the other posts that got lost, but it’s getting too late to keep rewriting them. I’m trying again here. Hope you read this.

    Would you be able or willing to help me understand some of the statements, questions and replies that were made during the discussion that took place at the 15th All – American Council, November 10-13, 2008, in Pittsburgh, PA? Feel free to comment, or not, anyway you like. I really want to know the truth. I thank you in advance. Here goes. Boldface has been cut and pasted from the minutes of that 15th AAC Meeting:

    Gregg Nescott : There is a third Kondratick suit against the OCA. Another matter: PR did not do a report. They only submitted documents, most of which have been published. The Justice Committee has been in a battle with PR to get some of our documents back since it’s not always been clear who they were working for. PR keeps promising that they will turn over everything but they have been so far withholding a lot of documents.

    Have the documents been returned, and are they relevant?

    Rebecca Matovic: There are various amounts of money listed in the SIC report. What do you believe, in rough terms, is the full figure of the money that has been misused?
    Bp. Benjamin: It is impossible to say and would be irresponsible in absence of complete information. We don’t know whether some or all of this money was honestly distributed. Order of magnitude seems to be $1mil upwards. What we learned is that record-keeping is very important.

    Any comment? Bp. Benjamin said, “We don’t know whether some of all of this money was honestly distributed” By the way, that statement was reworded as it appears in the minutes on the web site, or at least it appears so. There, asked the same question, his answer was recorded as being: “I don’t think we know the full extent. It is important to note that some of the missing money could have been correctly disbursed – we just do not know because there was no recordkeeping.” That sure has a different feel to it.

    Can you tell me anything about where the money went?

    Anthony Kasmer: Were no donations ever deposited into checking accounts?
    Bp. Benjamin: The money were deposited. What we cannot follow is disbursements.
    Anthony Kasmer: No bank transaction checks? All cash withdrawals under $10K?
    Bp. Benjamin: Yes. We cannot tell what happened with the money.

    Do you know why the money would have been withdrawn in cash in amounts under $10,000?

    Fr. Chad Hatfield: If money laundering in Russia is involved, then our Dept. of External Affairs was involved. Were they interviewed?
    Bp. Benjamin: Yes, both Fr. Kishkovsky and Fr. Zacchaeus Wood were interviewed. A lot of expenses were used for entertaining foreign guests, going over budget – in unknown amounts.
    Fr. Leonid Kishkovsky: What was listed as External Affairs budget has never been controlled by External Affairs. I never even knew our budget. When the need arouse I would go the Chancellor and ask for permission. If the answer was yes, it was done; if the answer was no, it was not done. That was the only kind of interaction the Dept. of External Affairs had with the budget. About money and Russia: in the early 90s there was chaotic situation in Russia and the church in Russia was actually poor. I was present when the envelopes were given to clergy in Russia for various needs. He has carried $3,000 from Met. Theodosius to the priest in Moscow for the hospital, and it was given to that priest. So some money have made it to the people and goals they were intended to. It is also a fact that at that time most of money went into Russia in cash, including money from the US government agencies and charities. I asked the Chancellor myself why there was no record-keeping and didn’t get an answer. If there was proper record-keeping then many questions would have been answered.

    Would you comment about this?

    That was when they were approached by Fr. Zacchaeus reporting concerns about misuse of funds designated for the orphanages.

    Would you address this, as well as the SIC report concerning all the money that was reported to have been misappropriated? Christmas Stocking Fund? 911 Fund? Children’s Funds? Personal money? Etc.? I’m asking, not accusingly, but just asking.

    If it’s not the right time for you to reply, I understand. People will jump all over you no matter what you say. But I, Jane whatsername, want to know. It’s painful to be falsely accused when you are innocent. If Father Kondratick is innocent, this might be as good a time as any to speak out more with more information and more answers. For example, are there any documents that can be posted from the court case where the judge threw out the charges? If Proskauer Rose is a well-respected law firm, how does it happen that their findings were not acceptable to the judge? How can it be that Fr. Kondratick is innocent, and yet so many are so absolutely convinced he is guilty?

    -Jane, (I used the name “Rachel” for a while on this blog, but changed it to Jane because it’s my middle name.)

    • Peter A. Papoutsis says

      Because we all acepted the internet postings of a man kicked out by Bobby K, and who then made it his misson to destroy him and he did. In the Courts evidentiary rules protect against smear jobs and hearsay and unverified documentary evidence, most of the time, and a jury that heard evidence and testimony found in favor of Father Kondritick and did not convict him. Go back to the very beginning and check everythink Stoke posted and view it through the lens of his now revealed bias and hatred for Kondritick and see if you cannot now see the spin and smear.

      Maybe, just maybe, FATHER Kondratick was innocent, and Mark Stoke fooled us all! That the HS made Kondritck the patsy and fallguy for its own shortcomings to put it nicely. Just stop think and question knowing now what we did not know then.

      Live and learn.


      • Jane Rachel says

        Peter. YEP. Thank you. Whew.

        You are just about person number four who has stated publicly that Fr. Kondratick is, er, “may be” innocent. Two other people besides you and I, that I know of, state he’s innocent, only they do so because they were there, and with a firmness and with evidence that demands a verdict. His Grace Bishop Tikhon (Fitzgerald) stated two days ago, that the Holy Synod denied Father Kondratick a meeting back in 2006. Fr. K was going to appear before them alone, without a lawyer. What does that say to you about his character, and the character of some of the bishops? Doggone it.

        This is not going to go away. Bishop Tikhon and Monk James state they are both human and credible. Big surprise. But this is not about them, so people, don’t haul out the same ol’ lines. A great wrong has been done. A great many grave wrongs have been done. If we as the Church are also to blame for our blindness and unwillingness to see that we have been wrong, both individually and corporately, we must, individually and corporately, call ourselves to account. We are talking about Fr. Robert Kondratick’s innocence. This is not a small thing. This is only the beginning.

        Please, holy Bishops, bless. Make things right. Church, make things right. Are we going to blame only the bishops and not ourselves?

        Look at what Monk James writes here:

        That was in July, 2006. It’s been almost five years. In this article Stokoe, after discrediting Monk James, uses Monk James to discredit Metropolitan Herman.

        Read what Monk James writes on its own merit. What’s he doing, lying? NO, he’s not lying.

        Oh, what’s the matter with people? Monk James has said who he is, and what he does. I’ve never met him but he looks like a nice person. So what if he’s an “Urban Monk”? So what if he’s not? He’s certainly more normal than all the Holy Prophets who spoke out in obedience to God against the hypocrisy and blindness of Israel. Monk James has given testimony as to what his life has been. He’s worked hard and prayed hard and he has been a good teacher online. No one can ever state anything “real” against him, for crying out loud. I get so frustrated with this.

        Look at the track records and see who is credible. Peter Papoutsis, a lawyer, states:

        “In the Courts evidentiary rules protect against smear jobs and hearsay and unverified documentary evidence, most of the time, and a jury that heard evidence and testimony found in favor of Father Kondritick and did not convict him.”


        I am so unable to comprehend how people could NOT ask questions.

        • Jane Rachel says

          I don’t know why I feel the need to scramble around defending these good men. What does it say about some of those online Orthodox forum members who have spent so much of their time criticizing and discrediting people in order to discredit what they are saying? Those slimers make me feel kind of slimed. I need a dose of songbirds. First thing in the morning, coffee and sunshine and songbirds. Ahhh….

        • George Michalopulos says

          You know, Jane Rachel, this whole thing gets curioser and curiouser.

        • Monk James says

          Christ is risen! Truly risen!

          Dear Friends —

          While I deeply appreciate the confidence which ‘Jane Rachel’ would place in my words, I must tell you that the link she adduces here does NOT reflect my words — as much as I agree with them — but the words of another monk.

          Peace and blessings of the Lord’s resurrection to all.

          Monk James

  16. Ken Miller says

    Folks, this thread has rightly exposed the sins of our church – sexual permissiveness, lust for power, hypocrisy, selection of unworthy priests and bishops because they can be controlled, financial impropriety, and so on.

    Some are talking split. We are not protestants or schismatics. Packing up our bags and leaving is not an option. However, standing up and fighting, laity and clergy alike, for strict aderance to the Scriptures and Holy Tradition is our only option, and by the way, it is the only message that is truly relevant to modern society. Orthodoxy is different from protestant denominations because we know to what we are tethered, which is the ancient apostolic faith and practice. If the hierarchs in one country or one generation take the church down a path contrary to the ancient faith, morality, and practice, they have not succeeded in transforming orthodoxy, they have only succeeded in relegating themselves to the scrap heap of history. Orthodoxy in all generations will always draw its faith, morality, and practice from ancient times, not from recent aberrations.

    Right now, we have a Metropolitan who is the antithesis of the sins I listed above. He is on record defending the orthodox doctrine on sexual sins. He is one of the few in the OCA who is more than “monastic in name only”. As a parishioner at St. Nicholas Cathedral, I hear him often speak of humilty, repentance, overcoming our passions, and so on. He teaches and practices the ancient practice of ceaseless prayer. He lives modestly and humbly and does not lust for money. We have the leader we need to take us out of this mire we are in. It’s time for the faithful to rise up, stand on principle, and support our Metropolitan who can help restore the glory of Orthodoxy, not through arrogantly seeking glory, but through humility and blessed mourning.

    • Geo Michalopulos says

      very well put, Ken. Since you are at ground zero, it is iincumbent for you and your fellow parisihioners to keep on fighting the good fight and support him in any way you can. It will be worth it.