Nobody Likes a Tattletale

There used to be a TV show called Little House on the Prairie (1974 to 1983) based on a book written by Laura Ingalls Wilder.  Because of it’s wholesome values and colorful characters with whom we can all identify, it was a favorite of families across the nation.   

Like all small towns, there are one or two who just can’t keep their mouths shut. 

In Little House on the Prairie, this honor went to Harriet Oleson and her daughter, Nellie.  Harriet was the drama queen and Nellie was the original “Karen,” i.e. the prissy, spoiled brat who could be downright vicious if the situation called for it.  In both cases, they had no compunction against turning in their neighbors for some perceived crime if it brought them attention.  They were vapid, self-interested twits who caused trouble wherever they went and served as a cautionary tale for what you don’t want to be if you have any hope of “winning friends and influencing people,” Dale Carnegie style. 

In short, nobody likes a tattletale.       

Is this what we’re seeing in Toronto?  The word on the street is that some meddlesome people in the Greek community are turning their priests and fellow parishioners into the Toronto Health Department for taking communion. (Shades of the Traditores, many of whom turned their fellow Christians into the Roman authorities during the last gasp of Diocletian’s persecution [ca 303-305].)

Some of our best stuff comes from our readers.  We want to thank Hal S. for bringing the following story to our attention.

***
Based on comment by Hal S. submitted 2020/07/16 at 11:15 am  
[Editor Note:  Edited and Appended with Additional Information]

On July 8th, Ortho Christian posted an article about some of the more meddlesome members of the Greek Community of Toronto (GCT) notifying the Toronto Health Department (THD) about the distribution of communion in their parishes, which was seemingly in conflict with guidelines previously published by the THD.  https://orthochristian.com/132458.html 

Upon further investigation, it was discovered that the THD publication was intended to be an unofficial guideline which the Churches within the Greek Metropolis could choose to ignore. 

Uncomfortable with the ambiguity, the GCT requested that the THD get further involved to resolve the conflict.  In response, two Toronto authorities were sent to the Churches, which resulted in a complaint by City authorities about the sharing of communion.

The Ortho Christian writer of the July 8th article, took the position that the City ban was instigated by the GCT, as demonstrated in the letters posted on the GCT website.

When I [Hal S.] first read the article, I understood it to mean that the GCT was complaining to the Toronto authorities and asking them to enforce the ban on communion. Although that was the implication, the supporting documentation did not actually spell this out.  (Perhaps there was some communication from the GCT to the Toronto authorities asking for enforcement, but if such a communication exists, it was not evident in the article.)  
 
Eventually, the Toronto authorities met again with Church authorities and agreed that it was okay to offer communion, if they used different spoons.  However, in a subsequent article on Ortho Christianity, a letter was posted from the GCT to the Greek Metropolis requesting the Metropolis stop distributing communion altogether.   

Wednesday, July 15, Metropolitan Sotirios of Toronto of the Greek Metropolis decided to put the matter to bed.  He acknowledged on the Metropolis website that Greek parishioners had, indeed, reported their own parishes to government authorities and that their actions prompted an investigation on the part of the Metropolis.  New requirements were put in place and per the Metropolitan, if the new requirements were not met, “fines will be imposed (. . . up to ten millions $10,000,000 for organizations) and they [the City] may go as far as to close our churches again.” 
https://www.gometropolis.org/metropolis/coronavirus-and-holy-communion-a-chronicle-of-events/

The new rules entail the use of multiple spoons, which is apparently going over like a lead balloon with many of the parishioners.  Had it not been for those who went to the THD to complain, they would continue to be receiving communion the traditional way, i.e. with a single spoon. 

The following clip makes it very clear how the parishioners feel about the changes The chants of “Anaxios!” are thunderous.  We, again, thank our friends on Ortho Christian for publishing the clip below: https://youtu.be/3sqVLhxjqTU
 

   

Comments

  1. Pat Reardon says

    Now THIS is the reason we pledge, just before receiving the Sacred Mysteries, “I will not speak of Thy Mysteries to Thine enemies.”

    This is not tattle-tale, George. This is betrayal.

    • Gail Sheppard says

      Indeed.

      • George Michalopulos says

        Truly.
        How far have we fallen that some, who bear the name of Christ, feel empowered by piss-ants masquerading as bureaucrats (and no shame at all), to betray others who bear the name of Christ.  
        This is what happens when an Orthodox parish becomes an ethno-social, poor man’s country club.

        • Gail Sheppard says

          We need to pray for Met. Sotiris. I cannot imagine how it must feel for him to be betrayed by his own flock and force him into implementing these measures. (Giving him the benefit of the doubt because had he wanted to do this he would have done it in the first place.) Those that betrayed him (Fr. Pat Reardon was correct to use that term) should stand up and tell the rest of us who they are because they also betrayed us.

          • “We need to pray for Met. Sotirios. I cannot imagine how it must feel for him to be betrayed by his own flock and force him into implementing these measures.”

            Let us pray for him indeed, that he be willingly to risk losing church buildings, funds in coporations, minor criminal charges, etc.  Make the government close the churches if need be, then break into them and keep using the buildings until you’re dragged out and arrested, then authorize the priests to take the Divine Liturgy underground at parks or private homes. 
             

        • cynthia curran says

          I like that George. A poor man’s country club. Think of all the suffering by the Orthodox Church under the old Soviet Union where priests were killed by the thousands and churches destroyed by the thousands,

  2. Gail Sheppard says

    The bigger problem that we’re not completely seeing is that many parishioners agree with these draconian measures thinking they make them “safe” and they are going to be unwilling to let them go.  They trust science more than the Church. 

    This is not a new phenomena.

    Gates (main supporter of WHO), Fauci (NIH) and the CDC, i.e. the “experts,” have done a number on this country, telling people they need to be afraid of this virus.

    “The extreme willingness of adults to go to almost any lengths on the command of an authority constitutes the chief finding of the study and the fact most urgently demanding explanation.”

    What would YOU do in this experiment?

      https://www.simplypsychology.org/milgram.html          

    • Gail,
      One of the social problems or factors involved in the experiment is that it doesn’t just test obedience, but also attitudes to physical punishment. As a general rule, I don’t believe in physical punishment, and usually people would agree with me. But unlike me, most people believe in physical pain punishments for children. So the instruction of the experimenter to zap someone is more objectionable to me than it would be for alot of people. 

      • Gail Sheppard says

        This is just my observation, but in the early 60s when this Yale experiment was first done, the unwitting participants were more comfortable with physical punishment than we were even by the 80s. Corporal punishment was part of most homes back then. The “wait until your father gets home” was a mother’s standard reply to bad behavior and it almost always meant you would get a spanking!

        They spanked kids in school back then, too.

        But by the time the 80s rolled around, our approach to child rearing and our feelings toward capital punishment started to change. Timeouts became the norm and fewer, and fewer people were executed.

        What’s interesting about this study is that it doesn’t seem to matter what the current views are on punishment because this same study has been replicated over and over again, with the same result, across decades. People comply because “experts,” the men and women in white lab coats, i.e. the “authorities,” say it is not only OK, it is necessary too complete the study. This overrides all objections.

        Again, this is my opinion, but I think our willingness to follow what the “experts” tell us, even in the face of concrete evidence to the contrary, still exists today. So it’s not only about obedience. It’s about doing something we don’t want to do or doesn’t make sense, because someone in authority tells us it is necessary to do so.

    • Pat Reardon says

      The bigger problem that we’re not completely seeing is that many parishioners agree with these draconian measures thinking they make them “safe” and they are going to be unwilling to let them go. 
       
      This is not my experience at all, dear. It seems to be mainly the clergy who are insisting on masks, social distancing, and so forth. Unless I am seriously mistaken, most of our people recognize this crisis for the farce it is. 

      • Gail Sheppard says

        That’s good (and bad) to know. This crisis is way overblown. If it weren’t I would know it.

        The clergy needs to put aside their opinions. Their opinions do not matter AT ALL. They are to embrace the Church as she is or go be a Methodist minister or something. It is not their providence to change the Church. They are there to serve Christ; not to tell us what they think. This is His Church, not theirs.

        Thank God for traditional metropolitans like Metropolitan Joseph. I’ve counted on him, and continue to count on him, to remain faithful to the Traditions of the Church, which he does, even when it’s not particularly popular. Axios!

      • Father, your statement hardly fills me with confidence in our clergy, but I believe it to be broadly accurate from my own experience too.

  3. George and Gail,
    When I watch that last YOUTUBE clip of the Greek Canadians in Church yelling:” Anaxios! We want one spoon! Christ is life! Shame! Don’t pierce our hearts! We beg you father no!”
    It literally gave me chills. The hair on my  arms stood up, and I my heart got heavy. To hear all that in Greek is really painful, something ancient in it, like the pains from centuries past, pain we Greeks have suffered from Turks, but now from our own, and worse yet our own clergy!

  4. As a general rule, when quoting someone, it’s best to use their actual words, and when paraphrasing them, it’s best to stay close to their meaning.
    I believe that in the Comment that I submitted this morning, I did not call the Toronto complainants “meddlesome,” although I can understand why you see them that way.
    Also, to clarify: The Ortho Christian writer of the July 8th article, did not take the position that the City ban was instigated by the GCT. Rather, IIRC, a leader in the GCT was also a leader in the Toronto Health Department that made the guidance against giving communion, and the writer of that article took the view that the GCT instigated the city to take strict enforcement measures against the Greek  Orthodox diocese there. The particular email from the GCT to the health department that the OrthoChristian writer published did not openly request the city to take measures, but maybe there is other correspondence suggesting this. It does seem like the GCT leadership wanted the city’s enforcement because for instance they have at least one person in overlapping leadership positions as I mentioned above. 
    ===================================
    My own comment is that it is hard to make a moral judgment call on the complainers. If it’s a simple condition where the complainers realize that the virus doesn’t really pose a severe risk and they complained to the authorities about the spoons like one could complain to the authorities if there was a speck of mold on the blessed bread, then the person would be like the Nellie in the “Little House” story.
    However, we are dealing with a weird situation where it is hard to understand the motives behind everything that is happening. Take for instance the GCT leader who also serves in the Toronto government. Conceivably someone could have come to him in an unofficial government or social capacity and told him to pay close attention to this issue. Or he could think that the virus is very contagious or more common than it is and have a strong sense of responsibility in his own mind as a health official to act on the issue, and then act on the issue in his position in the GCT. So it is hard to know for sure what everyone’s motives are.
    Still, it’s worth noting that nor is this a case of Toronto passing a strict anti-communion regulation and then taking the initiative on its own to force the Greek Church to comply.

    • Gail Sheppard says

      Hal S., I no longer have your original comment. Please feel free to post it again if you’d like. Again, we appreciate your bringing the story to our attention. I’d like to respond to your statements, one by one, with respect to what we wrote and why.

      1. You say, and I am quoting: “As a general rule, when quoting someone, it’s best to use their actual words, and when paraphrasing them, it’s best to stay close to their meaning.”

      Response: We weren’t quoting you. We were telling a story based on a comment you submitted to me. When you see a movie where they say, “Based on a true story” or “Inspired by actual events,” what you’re really seeing someone’s take on the actual events and sometimes the writer’s imagination, as was the case with The Two Popes. No two stories are the same. We indicated what we wrote was edited and appended. And that was absolutely true. We thanked you for sending it to us and we sincerely meant it. We like to give props to people, especially to our readers, when we write our stories. The only time we paraphrased what you said, was when we embedded your name so the reader would know we were expressing your sentiments.

      2. You say, and I quote: “I believe that in the Comment that I submitted this morning, I did not call the Toronto complainants “meddlesome,” although I can understand why you see them that way.”

      Response: Again, our remarks and take on the events were our own, as we acknowledged when we used the word appended. Everything we wrote was researched, verified and penned by us, except where you see your name. We even told the story in a different order because we thought it would be more understandable if we presented the events chronologically. We verified everything we wrote and wrote it in our own voice. We gave you credit for alerting us to it, which I think you deserved, even though this story is being told by many people and even by us in our own story entitled Toronto. Like you, we’ve been watching it unfold.

      3. You say, and I quote: “The Ortho Christian writer of the July 8th article, did not take the position that the City ban was instigated by the GCT. . .”

      Response: Ortho Christian said the following: “. . . letters published by the Greek Community of Toronto (GCT), a charitable organization that owns and operates four churches in Toronto, testify that the ban was instigated by the organization and parishioners of the churches themselves. . .” which is what we reported.

      4. You say, and I quote: “Rather, IIRC, a leader in the GCT was also a leader in the Toronto Health Department that made the guidance against giving communion, and the writer of that article took the view that the GCT instigated the city to take strict enforcement measures against the Greek Orthodox diocese there.”

      Response: We didn’t mention this in our story.

      4. You say, and I quote: “The particular email from the GCT to the health department that the OrthoChristian writer published did not openly request the city to take measures, but maybe there is other correspondence suggesting this.”

      Response: I believe your POV was acknowledged in the following: “When I [Hal S.] first read the article, I understood it to mean that the GCT was complaining to the Toronto authorities and asking them to enforce the ban on communion. Although that was the implication, the supporting documentation did not actually spell this out.  (Perhaps there was some communication from the GCT to the Toronto authorities asking for enforcement, but if such a communication exists, it was not evident in the article.) We were paraphrasing. These were not your exact words (no quotes), but convey the essence of your point, I believe, and we made sure the reader understood that this was expressed by you. I think this was really the only place we did this.

      5. You say, and I quote: “It does seem like the GCT leadership wanted the city’s enforcement because for instance they have at least one person in overlapping leadership positions as I mentioned above.”

      Response: Although I agree with you about the motives of the GCT, we did not call it out in our piece. We were focusing strictly on the events leading up to the end result, so we could make our greater point which was what we think of the people who caused this kind of trouble for their fellow parishioners and clergy. Your story was about the Who, What, When, Where, Why and How. – Our story was about the “who” and what they did, to put it bluntly.

      I hope this helps to clear this up. I would be happy to edit your name out of the piece if it would make you more comfortable. Just let me know. Again, thank you for the comment. We sincerely appreciate it.  

      • Gail,
        Thanks for replying. The OrthoChristian article says: “letters published by the Greek Community of Toronto (GCT), a charitable organization that owns and operates four churches in Toronto, testify that the ban was instigated by the organization and parishioners of the churches themselves, while the city seemed to be laxer on enforcing the requirements.”

        I think that this means what you thought, that the organization instigated the city to make the ban. Unfortunately the article does not quote any letters asking or prompting the city to make the ban.

        Regarding the letter that you used as an appendix at the bottom of the Nelly article above, I recommend taking out the term meddlesome and replacing it with complainers or complainants because it is hard for me to make a judgment on the motives of the meddlers. For instance, Conceivably the complainants were hypochondriacs or didn’t realize that their measures were drastic over reactions.

  5. Don’t take the comment that I made on this thread a few minutes ago as undermining your main point. The ban on giving communion was certainly a drastic overreaction, as for instance the accommodation that they have since made with plastic spoons shows. And that being the case, it is hard to sympathize with the GCT’s role in reporting the problem to the authorities. For instance, why did the GCT just insist on a clarification instead of expressing approval for the unofficial decision of the authorities to allow communion to continue? 
    And who exactly are the complainants now that plastic spoons are used? Is the GCT complaining against the diocese?

    • Gail Sheppard says

      No, I don’t. I’m going to address your concerns, however.

    • Interesting that that simple word “guidance” once again make an appearance that causes trouble for the Church.

  6. Antiochene Son says

    Excommunication until their death bed. That should be the answer to these betrayers.

  7. Nicholas says

    A Greek MD writing from Toronto had a different take in which she laid this at the feet of the Archbishop:
    “Your Eminence, on Sunday July 12th, our parish priests in Ontario suddenly announced for the first time, your new directive that because of legal requirements, Holy Communion will now be distributed using multiple spoons in the Greek Orthodox churches of Canada. The phrase because of legal requirements was never provided by you in writing your Eminence. Rather, it was verbally uttered from the pulpits of the Greek Orthodox churches of Ontario by the clergy to whom you had given the verbal order.
    To clarify further, in the Province of Ontario, only the City of Toronto under the jurisdiction of Mayor John Tory, has indicated in writing that all communion services should be suspended. This is not state law, as Toronto is a city and not a state. It can also be argued according to our legal sources, that this is not even law, but a recommendation or advice which requires the free cooperation of the individual since such a recommendation or advice is contrary to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Indeed, many jurisdictional public health updates which recommend the suspension of communion services, are titled, “Covid-19 Advice” or “Covid-19 Guidance”. To date, there is no national Canadian or provincial Ontario (state) law prohibiting communion services. If there is and we have missed it, kindly provide us a copy of this document. Furthermore, the Toronto recommendation was to “suspend” communion and made no reference to its mode of distribution, meaning, NO communion whatsoever, not even with multiple spoons.”
    https://orthodoxreflections.com/is-there-a-dark-agenda-behind-multiple-communion-spoons-in-canada/
     

    • Why for the Bishop are those who are against extremist if the situation is complex? Especially as it was not them who tattletale their brethren and started all this humiliation. Bishop should unite not divide.
      Also, in his letter he just briefly mentions how other churches change somewhat way of communion all across Canada. Were they also obliged to have multiple spoons or they did something else? Did he and other churches have other options or only multiple spoons? If yes why he choose multiopel spoon?
      Why he misguides his flock that this decision of health authorities was only for Toronto, not for all Canada? There are lot of churches in Canada that take communion as it should be taken with single spoon.

    • Good response, Nicholas.

  8. There are some formal reactions / responses to the encyclical circulating on the internet…here is one of them.
     
    https://orthodoxreflections.com/now-is-the-time-to-fight-for-orthodoxy-in-canada/
     
    The issue at hand is a concern about the use of common vessels for liturgical practice…The government, and several citizens are concerned about Church tradition…however, when Christ said “take, eat, this is my body” with his own hands, and then “drink of this all of you” from a common vessel, and then again “do this in rememberance of me (forever)”….this is a core MANDATE from Christ to continue this tradition of common vessels.
    Is Christ’s intention for us to become infected?  At this point the debate switches to a core FAITH issue.  Some people have weak faith, some people have strong faith.  Those who have put their faith in vaccines and science, forget that God picks up where science ends…Today, life expectancy is about 80 years in advanced societies.  100 years ago that life expectancy was 60, and 200 years ago 50, because of all sorts of things that would kill us along the way…why is it that society waits until life expectancy is 80 years to suddenly feel that “Common vessel” worship that was mandated by Christ himself is a source of infection?  Are we smarter than generations of saints that have passed through our Church History?  No way!  We are just losing our faith…and by losing our faith, we are allowing governments to overstep their authority in an attempt to restrict Religious freedom.  Living until 80, 90, or even 100 is now our “right”, even though after Noah’s flood God points out in Genesis that HE reduced life expectancy by 80% (from a max of 900 years to about a max of 120 years), in order to dissuade spirutual corruption and make humans more aware of their mortality and sinfulness…the longer we live, the less we think about God, so it makes sense that now we “love our worldly life” more than we do God, and we fear “physical death” more than “spiritual death”….
     
    Even if “FEAR of the virus” and “love our worldly life” is at the core of this motivation, it is unfathomable to suddenly request a change to a practice that is core to our 2000-year old liturgical practice, and which follows the model of the 1st liturgy – the Last Supper.  It is blasphemy to change it on account of a specific virus, or flu, or even Bubonic Plague (like in past centuries, where they did NOT change our practice despite the fact that COVID is absolutely nothing when compared to the Bubonic Plague).  It is blasphemy because it is based on FEAR, and this fear is fueling the sin of Faithlessness.
     
    And for those who are skeptics, please note that there was a SCIENTIFIC study done back in 1943 by the “non-Orthodox” specifically on this matter:
     
    http://www.recus.org/resources/CommonCupBacteria.pdf
     
    Note that this Communion Cup study was done based on the Western tradition of everyone putting their lips on the chalice…The conclusion of this 1943 study was very clear:
     
    It is concluded that in practice the silver communion cup is not an important vector of infectious disease.
     
    We can also tell the skeptics the following….
     
    “Perhaps you were not aware of this study.  I’m sure there are many other things you are not aware of either, so to follow your own thinking…Yes, you are correct…God gave you a brain…but your brain is no better than the brains of our Church Fathers or the Apostles who were first-hand witnesses to Christ’s mandate on how we should perform our liturgical practice…they witnessed plagues, pestilence, and disease, too…start with that assumption, and maybe you’ll sort out in your minds the right approach to this issue…”

  9. Sage-Girl says

    ?Ioannis,
    great post!!

  10. Meeting in Toronto at the Greek Achdiocese to hopefully get real answers on Sunday 7/19:

    To that end, and as you are already aware, many of us will be paying a visit to our Archdiocese this coming Sunday. People will be arriving any time after 9:30 am to hear liturgy inside the small church (30% capacity) or pray outside the doors and the surrounding vicinity. We are going there to confess our faith in Christ and our support of the ONE SPOON – μια λαβιδα – through which we confess our belief that the Body and Blood of our Lord, the Supreme Sacrifice, is All Holy and incorruptible, and was, is and always shall be.

    Right now, his Eminence is telling us the government made him introduce the multiple spoons so that the churches do not close. The government is telling us they had nothing to do with it. Something does not match up. Therefore, we will visit our Holy Archdiocese first, and we will knock to see if it shall be opened unto us.

    This coming Sunday, as we arrive to our Holy Archdiocese, there will be masks and social distancing. There will be hymns and prayers. There will be respect and consideration. There will not be any microphones, or any stones. There will not be any screaming or yelling. His Eminence invited us to meet with him as one Christian family. And as one Christian family we will go in the hopes that His Eminence, our spiritual father in Canada, will come outside and, like a father, speak to us, listen to us, comfort us, pastor us, laugh and cry with us one person at a time, one family at time, and not from a distance on high or just through an encyclical.

    I pray that our “Q&A tour” will only take us as far as the doors of our Archdiocese. Otherwise, we will continue to search until the truth is found. I am confident that if Covid-19 does not uncover this truth, God certainly will.

    More Info: https://orthodoxreflections.com/greek-orthodox-in-toronto-announce-qa-meeting-to-focus-on-real-issues/

    • Gail Sheppard says

      I realize I am in not position to tell you anything. BUT, out of my deep concern for you, I want to remind you how important it is to remember who you are. You’re Orthodox with a problem that needs to be addressed with your brothers and sisters in Christ, many of whom are very afraid. That’s not their fault. They are truly, deeply afraid. I hate what the world is doing to people.

      Your metropolitan, if he had believed in the multiple spoon approach, would have implemented it without all this having to happen. He knew what his clergy was doing. He is not the only metropolitan who has had to take the position of looking the other way, which he can no longer do now that he has been backed into a corner.

      My heart is with you. You know we support you. God’s speed.

      • George Michalopulos says

        Please keep us posted.

      • Gail,
        This is no longer about Covid-19…people have the option to wait it out for a year until there is a vaccine if they are so scared.  The hierarchy has already demonstrated weakness of faith, abandonment of tradition, excessive fraternization with non-Orthodox hierarchy etc, long before Covid-19…in 2006, when Pope Benedict visited Constantinople, I stayed up all night in the US to watch the event on Greek TV, and counted at least 8 Canons that were breached by the Patriarch, including the full recitation of the Lord’s prayer in Greek by the Pope during the Service (if this is not the definition of co-celebration, I don’t know what is)…Therefore, this new and arguably blasphemous action with the multiple spoons is not necessarily surprising.
        The big problem here is that multiple spoons will not going away once they are established.  This is about using Covid-19 as a “windfall / unexpected platform” to modify a 2000-year old tradition, as part of a 100 year old pattern of eroding the discussion concerning “differences” between East / West dogmas, and only focusing on Commonalities…the fewer the differences over time (and Holy Communion is a big one), the easier it will be to achieve what failed in 1439 in Florence, and later on with the Uniate movement…a False Union without true Repentance…a repeat attempt of the surrender that St. Mark of Ephesus fought tooth and nail to prevent in 1439…
        So, let’s stop thinking about Covid, or H1N1, or leprocy, or whatever it may be, and focus on what is actually transpiring in front of our eyes with the assault on the core Liturgical Practice of our Faith…
        In matters of Faith, there can be no compromise – St. Mark of Ephesus

  11. George Michalopulos says
    • “Some Christians shouted in the churches. An instigator near the microphone shouted three times ‘Sotirios is unworthy.’ I respond. I am not sinless.”

      They’re not saying you’re unworthy, your Grace, because you’re a sinner, but because they think there is heresy and/or apostasy implicit in your choices and non-choices.  This isn’t covered by the standard liturgical prayers about being unworthy, that you note reading during Liturgy. 

      “The instructions of the government authorities clearly state that it is forbidden to share objects of worship.”

      Acts 5:29.
       
       

      • Michael Bauman says

        Myst, if you were Bishop with  both spiritual and temporal responsibility for the Diocese as a whole, how willing would you be to sacrifice everything for every person in the Diocese?  Would  you be willing to require that form of martyrdom for everyone?  Is it really that easy?  
        If the government followed through on their threat the Diocese would have been crippled monetarily for generations.  
        As I read the sub-text, the tattlers will face discipline but quietly.

        • “Is it really that easy?”

          Is it really that hard to imagine taking on government head on and winning?  Surely, you see the Leftists flout the law and do and demand outrageous things and have noticed governments bend over backwards to appease them? Fined by the government? Dump a load on manure worth that amount on the front lawn of relevant government employee(s), and then drag them into court to accept it as legal tender.

          “If the government followed through on their threat the Diocese would have been crippled monetarily for generations.”

          Woe to the rich man. 

          “As I read the sub-text, the tattlers will face discipline but quietly.”

          And if the tattlers sue and create more bad PR, for being punished, for going to the government over things the church already conceded to?
           

          • Michael Bauman says

            Myst, outside of Canada no it is not hard to imagine.  Jordon Peterson won big time in terms of overall exposure and revenue, but the Church does not have power or authority or the ability to make money because of popularity elsewhere.   All I am saying is that given the options: submit or pay us lots of money AND have your parishes closed (which without the Sacraments they are anyway), I can understand why the Bishop chose not to fight.   It is not 1821 anymore and the enemy does not present as clearly as then either. 
            Plus, your answer sounds very American.  Would that sort of thing actually work in Canada on an existential level?  I don’t know.
            All I really know is that I am really glad I am not a bishop.  I have had wonderful results from obeying my bishop even when I knew he was wrong.   
             
             

        • Antiochene Son says

          When is it time to fight, if not now? 

          • Michael Bauman says

            AS, there are three elements that have to be met for a community fight to occur: A. About 30% of the community is ready willing or a high proportion of visible leaders and 30% or less are opposed***; B. The “enemy” has to be perceived as vulnerable; C. A charismatic leader(s) and/or a powder keg event.
            For personal action: if after pray, fasting and contemplation you are moved to act locally then have at it.  
            **In a hierarchial community like the Church, the Bishops are critical.  There are 50 canonical Bishops across 8 jurisdictions the US. About 1/3 are GOA.  So you would probably need about 10 to “raise the flag” as long as the mother churches stay out of it.  The experience of Ligoner has made all more cautious still.

            Hard to factor in obedience and it’s critical role in anything like a community response happening.  Failing that a primarily lay response would take a much higher % than normal.  

            My inclination is to fight BUT, that always is tempered by my obedience to my Bishop. While not vowed to that, I find it essential in my spiritual growth. 
            But, if you are moved to raise a ruckus and the time is right–who knows?   
            I don’t see it.  God knows and if we are attentive, He will let us know. 

            • Antiochene Son says

              I understood your post to be a hypothetical question to bishops, so I think bishops placed in this position must seriously consider disobeying the civil authorities, as Archbishop Kyrill has done in CA. If that means a legal fight, the times may require it.
               
              For the layman, you’re right, the most we can do is vote with our wallets and our feet, but if there is a group who agree I don’t think they should ever be ignored. The hierarchs should listen to the sheep if they are good Shepherds. 

              • Michael Bauman says

                AS not to bishops but what I would do in their place.  I think that Toronto is a vastly different place than San Francisco.  The fact that Orthodox communicants apparently lodged a complaint also made it more difficult.  Maybe he was listening to his people and knew them and felt he would not have enough support.  

              • Michael Bauman says

                AS, lay people also have the responsibility to communicate with our Bishop in love, humility and prayer what they see and action possibilities. 

    • Antiochene Son says

      Seems misguided to me. The WHO has no power by itself, it can only recommend. The media and government is who we should go after, who seized the opportunity to become tyrants as soon as it was available.
       
      As with Epstein/Maxwell, I have never liked going after an unpopular co-conspirator when the true evildoers escape unpunished. 

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  13. Antiochene Son says

    An excellent piece by Fr. Josiah Trenham. 
    https://youtu.be/MKE67Ws0kRs

  14. Michael Bauman says

    Toronto is closing down a lot. They refused to allow the Toronto Blue Jays permission to play baseball there this year even though MLB is not allowing any fans, limited broadcast crews, and changed the rules to reduce player contact. 
    I think it is indicative of the high probability that the Toronto government would indeed follow through with their threats against the Church there. There is a high level of fear combined with aggressive government overreach.   

  15. I can’t believe Bishop was caught cold turkey about manipulating spoons and that He simply does not care and continues with the heresy. I knew the meeting with Him is just wasting time, but that things are going to unfold like this is unbelievable.
    https://orthodoxreflections.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/video-1595207862-1.mp4
    In his sermon Bishop said that the problem with multiple spoons is only how to organize Easter when you have thousand of spoons! Also he said that the Church canons talk how communion can be pass only through hands i.e. RC are right the way they are doing now.
    I have no doubts now the agenda is to have RC and OCA and GOArch as close as possible within 2025 and this virus give them an idea that they might succeed. But the Church is stronger then bunch of lost in fait Bishops in OCA and GOArch.