https://gr.pravoslavie.ru/148755.html
According to our friends at Romfea.gr, the mask is finally off of the fake “church” created by Patriarch Bartholomew. It looks like there was a concelebration with a Latin priest last week (courtesy Austin Martin): https://gr.pravoslavie.ru/148755.html Be sure and click on the links to see the photos!
One of the delicious things about this story (irony alert) is that the presiding “hierarch” belongs to the “Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Ukraine.” The “autocephalous” church that has Patriarch Bartholomew “as it’s head.”
The same “church” that does nothing “without the will of its head.”
So are we to assume that this concelebration was done with the blessing of Patriarch Bartholomew? Or is this an example of the Ukroschizzies pgoing rogue?
OCU representative, Andrey Dudchenko, stated that if there is unity between Catholics and Orthodox, “the Catholic Church should not take over the Orthodox Church, as it should take place in view of the principle of primacy, when Patriarch Bartholomew is the first among the leaders of all other Churches . . .” (I didn’t realize that Mr Dudchenko was a comedian as well. –ed.)
If this is indeed the case, Bartholomew has taken his role as first among equals to a whole new level: first among the leaders of all other Churches. https://spzh.news/en/news/89607-v-pcu-prokommentirovali-ideju-obedinenija-rkc-i-fanara
According to the Greek professor Kyriakos Kyriazopoulos, an experiment is underway to papalize Ukraine through the “autocephalous church” led by Epiphany.
Kyriazopoulos emphasized that the Vatican, through the “Papal Council for the Promotion of Christian Unity”, agreed on a meeting of the Archbishop of the Uniates of Ukraine with Bartholomew. It was there that it was decided to further the ecumenical relations between Epiphany and the Uniates in Ukraine.”
According to Kyriazopoulos, the Patriarchate of Constantinople and Patriarch Bartholomew in particular seeks to reserve the primacy of power among the Autocephalous Orthodox Churches “through the codex of canons typical for papism.”
However, the professor believes this is a mistake, because “even if he (the pope – Ed.) gives Bartholomew what he wants to have power over what are still the Autocephalous Orthodox Churches, in the future the Pope will cancel it, because it is an ‘ecclesiastical law’, not a ‘Divine law’.”
He emphasized that “the Patriarchate of Constantinople is pursuing the wrong policy and will lose what it has. He will lose the primacy of honor and then the primacy of power, which he seeks to receive through the pope.”
In his opinion, the unification of the Orthodox and Catholics will take place “under the auspices of the Vatican and the Patriarchate of Constantinople” with the use of Catholic ecclesiology, since the “Orthodox one is powerless institutionally and politically.”
“The Vatican [will seek to] apply its own ecclesiology, because if it unites with Orthodoxy on Orthodox conditions, it will collapse as a papacy,” said Professor Kyriakos Kiriazopoulos. https://spzh.news/en/news/68850-fanar-sozdal-pcu-dlya-obedinenija-s-katolikami–grecheskij-professor
Regardless, Bartholomew is again moving into uncharted territories without the backing of his brother bishops. Perhaps rather than weakening the Russian Orthodox Church, he is providing the ammunition they need to sway the Local Churches into dealing with this situation once and for all. If not, we will all have to accept that he just united the Orthodox Church with the Catholic Church through a group of unordained schismatics. Heretical? Not if the bishops let him get away with it.
There have already been instances where Latin clergy stand in the altar (off to the side) during services with the OCU, this was just the next step up for them. Doesn’t surprise me at all; a pretend ‘Orthodox’ church playing around with a church that fell into schism centuries ago! Both a comedy AND a tragedy.
Mark 8:36
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Appropriate for the article I think
That’s the million $$ question isn’t it. There have been not a few bishops, and patriarchs, calling for a synaxis of primates to find a conciliar solution to the Ukrainian problem. Poland, who is dealing with a massive influx of Ukrainian refugees, has been one of the most vocal.
All on deaf ears.
Bartholomew will never call a council to answer a problem that HE created as he runs a very, very high right of being reprimanded, and possibly even outright excommunicated.
The time has long passed for the Synaxis of primates to happen, not just to answer the Ukrainian question, but to address the other errors of Bartholomew and the PoC. Now that many Churches, on both sides of the “aisle,” have recognized the Macedonian Church in a short amount of time, it’s time for them all to come together to outright condemn Bartholomew for his actions, label those who have concelebrated with the Ukrainian schismatics as being schismatic themselves and let a council decide whether they should be deposed, defrocked, have a period of penance, etc.
The longer the Patriarchs wait, the worse this situation will become, the more the problem will fester, and the more it will affect the ENTIRE diaspora no matter the jurisdiction.
I can see an exodus from some of the GO parishes in the near future. What will ol’Bart and Elpi do to keep their coffers full?
Easy, beg Soros for more money.
Sell the empty parish properties for the money.
They have a right to exist, just like any other denomination or faith community. Of course, that doesn’t mean we have to share the chalice with them.
It’s an uncanonical structure, but Patriarch Kirill has not really endeared himself to Ukrainians. Both things are true at the same time.
I would think the 1000-year-old schism and continuing disagreement about things like papal supremacy and the filioque might seem remote and abstract to Ukrainians at this time.
Is Bartholomew taking advantage of the situation, or doing “spiritual triage” in a situation where there are few good options? Again, the truth might be somewhere in the middle, and again, Patriarch Kirill’s statements supporting the war have not helped.
Mark, you’re being way to generous. Ever since 1919 (with brief interludes), the Ecumenical Patriarchate has never done anything in a non-self-serving way.
I wrote these apostates off back in 2018 when it became clear they had only contempt for Orthodox ecclesiology. Their departure to Rome is a foregone conclusion IMHO.
I’m not sure they are worth any more attention than the Episcopalians.
Bart may decide to unite but he is not the Orthodox Church. He will be leaving The Church behind, and many of us will certainly not follow him to the depths. He is foolish if he thinks this will be a positive change and I wish the other GOA bishops would speak up; I already have some ideas of their thoughts and they are negative. Unfortunately we cannot clean house because too many members of the GOA adore the EP and Elpidoktonos, almost to the point of worshiping them. May Mark of Ephesus intercede for us!
That’s what many of us thought when he installed an unordained, schismatic, nationalist sect into another bishop’s territory at the behest of a crooked politician, but he’s still here.
Yes.
Funny how he just completely redefines the word “kephalos”. You can’t have an autocephalous Church with a different head, although it gives a new perspective on the idiom “lost his mind.” Perhaps the Patriarch and friends need to go back to Greek school and learn what words mean. LP recently said that the Greek youth need to learn Greek, but I think he meant something different than I do.
Gayest looking Catholic priest possible. They really hit the stereotypes. He looks like Klaus Schwab. It’s always the ugliest freaks who are into this new world order thing.
The Roman Catholic View
Austin,
I certified teacher uf Greek at St. Hercules in Long Island parish Greek School. Not easy to get certified. Must complete 30 minute Zoom course required by Ecumenical Patriarchate before qualified to teach our young people. So important for children and all Church to learn meaning uf Greek words so they understand history uf our people and meaning uf Greek words.
Why you twist meaning of autocephally? You done know you Greek.
Autocephally come from two Greek word.
Auto: mean automatic.
Kephalous: mean head.
Autocephalous mean: automatic head, which mean Patriarchate is automatically head uf autocephalous churches.
Well, you made my point for me.
So, are all automobiles automatic mobiles?
Are autobiographers automatic writers?
Do we spoon tea with our teaspoons?
I don’t think so…
This is interesting: America’s proxy war with Russia is not about the Ukraine but a salient against China’s growing hegemony. The US needed to bomb the NS 1 & 2 pipelines to make sure that Europe remain dependent upon us instead of Russia:
“Washington’s proxy war in Ukraine is actually aimed at China not Russia. Russia is not a peer competitor and Russia does not have the economic wherewithal to displace the United States in the global order. NordStream, however, did pose a significant risk to the US by greatly strengthening Moscow’s economic relations with the EU and particularly with Europe’s industrial powerhouse, Germany. The Moscow-Berlin alliance—which was mutually beneficial and key to German prosperity—had to be sabotaged to prevent further economic integration that would have drawn the continents closer together into the world’s biggest free trade zone. Washington had to stop that in order to preserve its economic stranglehold on Europe and defend the dollar as the world’s reserve currency. Even so, no one expected the US to blow up the pipeline itself in—what appears to be—the greatest act of industrial terrorism in history. That was truly shocking.
“In essence, Washington sees Russia as an obstacle to its “pivot” plan to encircle, isolate and weaken China. But Russia is not the greatest threat to US global primacy; not even close. That designation belongs to China.”
Taken from: https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/the-one-chart-that-explains-everything/
George,
I agree to a point with this analysis in that I’m sure this is the way the US sees the situation from its vantage point. However, the US is making the cardinal mistake of minimizing the significance of military power and the economic power of industrial and commodity production in relation to the power of finance. The lesson being taught is that finance is not king.
Of course, I am happy that people continue to underestimate Russia’s ability to lead a hegemonic bloc. This plays directly into Russian hands. But whatever the rationalizations that Westerners concoct, that is what is materializing before us.
From a Roman Catholic priest friend of ours:
“Catholic priests are forbidden to concelebrate with priests or ministers of churches or ecclesial communities which are not in full communion with the Catholic Church.”
Canon 908
The Code of Canon Law (1983)
Frankly, I don’t see how this is going to work. Who are they going to commemorate? – I still can’t figure this out. Are they going under the OCU, joining with the OCU or going under the EP?
Gail, from what I understand, it would mostly be a merger of the OCU with the UGCC, and electing a new head:
https://spzh.news/en/news/90341-v-pcu-snova-prizvali-k-slijaniju-s-ugkc
Both groups want a Ukrainian Patriarch, but I don’t think Patriarch Bartholomew would give his consent for patriarchate status unless everyone in Ukraine is on board, including the churches under Metropolitan Onuphry. But who knows? Metropolitan Onuphry has cut ties with the Russian Church, so I suppose it’s possible.
Thanks, Joseph.
Metropolitan Onuphry did not cut ties with the Russian Church. “The bishops made a surprise assertion of the Church’s “full” independence, while insisting the move is not the same as a formal break from ecclesial communion with the Russian Orthodox Church.” https://www.pillarcatholic.com/uoc-mp-asserts-full-independence/
I think they did this so the OCU, and whoever else is unfortunate enough to join them, won’t be able to say they are the Ukrainian Church, nor will Bartholomew be able to gobble up any more Churches because there is presently an independent Church in Ukraine.
In other words, Metropolitan Onuphry is asserting the UOC is the Ukrainian Church and the Russian Church is in Russia.
Mykhailo Zinkevych has the right idea that one primate should be over UGCC, OCU and UOC. But the problem is the OCU is schematic and the UGCC is Catholic. How do you bring them all together into the Orthodox Church?
Met. Onufry seems to be hedging his bets. Not the bravest move ever made. But the UOC and the MP remain in communion.
If Poland invades Ukraine, then the whole dynamic in this war would really change. I believe George has suggested this might happen. Metropolitan Onuphrey is then wise to hedge his bets.
I would like to see Ukraine as a politically neutral country, having good relations with both Russia and the West. I think that’s what most Ukrainians want.
Historically, it’s always been a tug of war though, and at the expense of the Ukrainians and their country. So perhaps instead of being either pro-Russia or pro-West, maybe it’s time for them to focus on being pro-Ukraine. Haven’t the Ukrainians suffered enough already?
There always was a pro-Ukraine option.
It was for trying to follow such a policy
(of good relations with both the West and Russia)
that Yanukovich was overthrown by a CIA/State Dept coup.
The Minsk Accords were on offer from then till very recently,
but the State Dept, through its glove-puppet regime in Kiev,
never wanted peace and security between Ukraine and Russia.
Their overriding aim was always the dismembering of Russia
and the plundering of the various bleeding chunks,
just as they were plundering Ukraine.
This war was engendered in Washington, not Moscow.
Joseph, I too, would like to see Ukraine remain neutral. That has been our objective all along. That it’s taken a military action by Russia to enforce this scenario is regrettable.
“Both groups want a Ukrainian Patriarch”
Joseph, so you want the breakup of Ukrainian and Russian Churches and union of Orthodox with Catholics (based on your previous posts). Do I get you right?
“Both groups want a Ukrainian Patriarch”
Perhaps, but would both agree in the same one?
A three-way split.
Could it be that, by communing with an RC priest
who acknowledges the supremacy of the Pope,
they are themselves admitting that supremacy?
Is there anything in RC Canon Law to that effect?
…and even if there is not,
will it not be interepreted as such?
Gail, I actually attended a Catholic friend’s wedding a few years back, and the priest there concelebrated the service with a Lutheran minister. Though, there was no eucharist celebrated at the service, like at many Catholic wedding masses. So, maybe there is a loophole there for them…or somebody was breaking the rules? I dunno.
I’ve been to mixed weddings where the non-orthodox clergy stand with the cantor as observers, not concelebrants, but do not enter the altar.
Well, this is surprising and refreshing. An article in the Federalist questioning the war in the Ukraine (lucidly).
$66 Billion In, It’s Clear The Realists Were Right About Ukraine
https://thefederalist.com/2022/11/10/66-billion-in-its-clear-the-realists-were-right-about-ukraine/
“A nation-building process that started in Iraq and Libya
is headed to Ukraine and will eventually head home.”
Iraq? Afghanistan? Libya? Syria? Ukraine?
How many nations have been built by this process;
or, rather, builded back better?