The joint declaration that both Roman Catholic Pope Francis and Russian Orthodox Patriarch Kirill signed Friday in Havana, Cuba started with a bible verse.
“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God the Father and the fellowship of the holy Spirit be with all of you” (2 Cor 13:13).
1. By God the Father’s will, from which all gifts come, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the help of the Holy Spirit Conciliator, we, Pope Francis and Kirill, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, have met today in Havana. We give thanks to God, glorified in the Trinity, for this meeting, the first in history.
It is with joy that we have met like brothers in the Christian faith who encounter one another “to speak face to face” from heart to heart, to discuss the mutual relations between the Churches, the crucial problems of our faithful, and the outlook for the progress of human civilization.
2. Our fraternal meeting has taken place in Cuba, at the crossroads of North and South, East and West. It is from this island, the symbol of the hopes of the “New World” and the dramatic events of the history of the twentieth century, that we address our words to all the peoples of Latin America and of the other continents.
It is a source of joy that the Christian faith is growing here in a dynamic way. The powerful religious potential of Latin America, its centuries–old Christian tradition, grounded in the personal experience of millions of people, are the pledge of a great future for this region.
3. By meeting far from the longstanding disputes of the “Old World” we experience with a particular sense of urgency the need for the shared labor of Catholics and Orthodox, who are called, with gentleness and respect, to give an explanation to the world of the hope in us.
4. We thank God for the gifts received from the coming into the world of His only Son. We share the same spiritual Tradition of the first millennium of Christianity. The witnesses of this Tradition are the Most Holy Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, and the saints we venerate. Among them are innumerable martyrs who have given witness to their faithfulness to Christ and have become the “seed of Christians.”
5. Notwithstanding this shared Tradition of the first ten centuries, for nearly one thousand years Catholics and Orthodox have been deprived of communion in the Eucharist. We have been divided by wounds caused by old and recent conflicts, by differences inherited from our ancestors, in the understanding and expression of our faith in God, one in three Persons – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We are pained by the loss of unity, the outcome of human weakness and of sin, which has occurred despite the priestly prayer of Christ the Saviour: “So that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you … so that they may be one, as we are one.”
6. Mindful of the permanence of many obstacles, it is our hope that our meeting may contribute to the re–establishment of this unity willed by God, for which Christ prayed. May our meeting inspire Christians throughout the world to pray to the Lord with renewed fervor for the full unity of all His disciples. In a world which yearns not only for our words but also for tangible gestures, may this meeting be a sign of hope for all people of goodwill.
7. In our determination to undertake all that is necessary to overcome the historical divergences we have inherited, we wish to combine our efforts to give witness to the Gospel of Christ and to the shared heritage of the Church of the first millennium, responding together to the challenges of the contemporary world. Orthodox and Catholics must learn to give unanimously witness in those spheres in which this is possible and necessary. Human civilization has entered into a period of epochal change. Our Christian conscience and our pastoral responsibility compel us not to remain passive in the face of challenges requiring a shared response.
8. Our gaze must firstly turn to those regions of the world where Christians are victims of persecution. In many countries of the Middle East and North Africa whole families, villages and cities of our brothers and sisters in Christ are being completely exterminated. Their churches are being barbarously ravaged and looted, their sacred objects profaned, their monuments destroyed. It is with pain that we call to mind the situation in Syria, Iraq and other countries of the Middle East, and the massive exodus of Christians from the land in which our faith was first disseminated and in which they have lived since the time of the Apostles, together with other religious communities.
9. We call upon the international community to act urgently in order to prevent the further expulsion of Christians from the Middle East. In raising our voice in defense of persecuted Christians, we wish to express our compassion for the suffering experienced by the faithful of other religious traditions who have also become victims of civil war, chaos and terrorist violence.
10. Thousands of victims have already been claimed in the violence in Syria and Iraq, which has left many other millions without a home or means of sustenance. We urge the international community to seek an end to the violence and terrorism and, at the same time, to contribute through dialog to a swift return to civil peace. Large–scale humanitarian aid must be assured to the afflicted populations and to the many refugees seeking safety in neighboring lands.
We call upon all those whose influence can be brought to bear upon the destiny of those kidnapped, including the Metropolitans of Aleppo, Paul and John Ibrahim, who were taken in April 2013, to make every effort to ensure their prompt liberation.
11. We lift our prayers to Christ, the Saviour of the world, asking for the return of peace in the Middle East, “the fruit of justice” (Is 32:17), so that fraternal co–existence among the various populations, Churches and religions may be strengthened, enabling refugees to return to their homes, wounds to be healed, and the souls of the slain innocent to rest in peace.
We address, in a fervent appeal, all the parts that may be involved in the conflicts to demonstrate good will and to take part in the negotiating table. At the same time, the international community must undertake every possible effort to end terrorism through common, joint and coordinated action. We call on all the countries involved in the struggle against terrorism to responsible and prudent action. We exhort all Christians and all believers of God to pray fervently to the providential Creator of the world to protect His creation from destruction and not permit a new world war. In order to ensure a solid and enduring peace, specific efforts must be undertaken to rediscover the common values uniting us, based on the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
12. We bow before the martyrdom of those who, at the cost of their own lives, have given witness to the truth of the Gospel, preferring death to the denial of Christ. We believe that these martyrs of our times, who belong to various Churches but who are united by their shared suffering, are a pledge of the unity of Christians. It is to you who suffer for Christ’s sake that the word of the Apostle is directed: “Beloved … rejoice to the extent that you share in the sufferings of Christ, so that when his glory is revealed you may also rejoice exultantly” (1 Pet 4:12–13).
13. Interreligious dialog is indispensable in our disturbing times. Differences in the understanding of religious truths must not impede people of different faiths to live in peace and harmony. In our current context, religious leaders have the particular responsibility to educate their faithful in a spirit which is respectful of the convictions of those belonging to other religious traditions. Attempts to justify criminal acts with religious slogans are altogether unacceptable. No crime may be committed in God’s name, “since God is not the God of disorder but of peace” (1 Cor 14:33).
14. In affirming the foremost value of religious freedom, we give thanks to God for the current unprecedented renewal of the Christian faith in Russia, as well as in many other countries of Eastern Europe, formerly dominated for decades by atheist regimes. Today, the chains of militant atheism have been broken and in many places Christians can now freely confess their faith. Thousands of new churches have been built over the last quarter of a century, as well as hundreds of monasteries and theological institutions. Christian communities undertake notable works in the fields of charitable aid and social development, providing diversified forms of assistance to the needy. Orthodox and Catholics often work side by side. Giving witness to the values of the Gospel they attest to the existence of the shared spiritual foundations of human co–existence.
15. At the same time, we are concerned about the situation in many countries in which Christians are increasingly confronted by restrictions to religious freedom, to the right to witness to one’s convictions and to live in conformity with them. In particular, we observe that the transformation of some countries into secularized societies, estranged from all reference to God and to His truth, constitutes a grave threat to religious freedom. It is a source of concern for us that there is a current curtailment of the rights of Christians, if not their outright discrimination, when certain political forces, guided by an often very aggressive secularist ideology, seek to relegate them to the margins of public life.
16. The process of European integration, which began after centuries of blood–soaked conflicts, was welcomed by many with hope, as a guarantee of peace and security. Nonetheless, we invite vigilance against an integration that is devoid of respect for religious identities. While remaining open to the contribution of other religions to our civilization, it is our conviction that Europe must remain faithful to its Christian roots. We call upon Christians of Eastern and Western Europe to unite in their shared witness to Christ and the Gospel, so that Europe may preserve its soul, shaped by two thousand years of Christian tradition.
17. Our gaze is also directed to those facing serious difficulties, who live in extreme need and poverty while the material wealth of humanity increases. We cannot remain indifferent to the destinies of millions of migrants and refugees knocking on the doors of wealthy nations. The unrelenting consumerism of some more developed countries is gradually depleting the resources of our planet. The growing inequality in the distribution of material goods increases the feeling of the injustice of the international order that has emerged.
18. The Christian churches are called to defend the demands of justice, the respect for peoples’ traditions, and an authentic solidarity towards all those who suffer. We Christians cannot forget that “God chose the foolish of the world to shame the wise, and God chose the lowly and despised of the world, those who count for nothing, to reduce to nothing those who are something, that no human being might boast before God” (1 Cor 1:27–29).
19. The family is the natural center of human life and society. We are concerned about the crisis in the family in many countries. Orthodox and Catholics share the same conception of the family, and are called to witness that it is a path of holiness, testifying to the faithfulness of the spouses in their mutual interaction, to their openness to the procreation and rearing of their children, to solidarity between the generations and to respect for the weakest.
20. The family is based on marriage, an act of freely given and faithful love between a man and a woman. It is love that seals their union and teaches them to accept one another as a gift. Marriage is a school of love and faithfulness. We regret that other forms of cohabitation have been placed on the same level as this union, while the concept, consecrated in the biblical tradition, of paternity and maternity as the distinct vocation of man and woman in marriage is being banished from the public conscience.
21. We call on all to respect the inalienable right to life. Millions are denied the very right to be born into the world. The blood of the unborn cries out to God.
The emergence of so-called euthanasia leads elderly people and the disabled begin to feel that they are a burden on their families and on society in general.
We are also concerned about the development of biomedical reproduction technology, as the manipulation of human life represents an attack on the foundations of human existence, created in the image of God. We believe that it is our duty to recall the immutability of Christian moral principles, based on respect for the dignity of the individual called into being according to the Creator’s plan.
22. Today, in a particular way, we address young Christians. You, young people, have the task of not hiding your talent in the ground (cf. Mt 25:25), but of using all the abilities God has given you to confirm Christ’s truth in the world, incarnating in your own lives the evangelical commandments of the love of God and of one’s neighbor. Do not be afraid of going against the current, defending God’s truth, to which contemporary secular norms are often far from conforming.
23. God loves each of you and expects you to be His disciples and apostles. Be the light of the world so that those around you may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father. Raise your children in the Christian faith, transmitting to them the pearl of great price that is the faith you have received from your parents and forbears. Remember that “you have been purchased at a great price,” at the cost of the death on the cross of the Man–God Jesus Christ.
24. Orthodox and Catholics are united not only by the shared Tradition of the Church of the first millennium, but also by the mission to preach the Gospel of Christ in the world today. This mission entails mutual respect for members of the Christian communities and excludes any form of proselytism.
We are not competitors but brothers, and this concept must guide all our mutual actions as well as those directed to the outside world. We urge Catholics and Orthodox in all countries to learn to live together in peace and love, and to be “in harmony with one another.” Consequently, it cannot be accepted that disloyal means be used to incite believers to pass from one Church to another, denying them their religious freedom and their traditions. We are called upon to put into practice the precept of the apostle Paul: “Thus I aspire to proclaim the gospel not where Christ has already been named, so that I do not build on another’s foundation.”
25. It is our hope that our meeting may also contribute to reconciliation wherever tensions exist between Greek Catholics and Orthodox. It is today clear that the past method of “uniatism,” understood as the union of one community to the other, separating it from its Church, is not the way to re–establish unity. Nonetheless, the ecclesial communities which emerged in these historical circumstances have the right to exist and to undertake all that is necessary to meet the spiritual needs of their faithful, while seeking to live in peace with their neighbors. Orthodox and Greek Catholics are in need of reconciliation and of mutually acceptable forms of co–existence.
26. We deplore the hostility in Ukraine that has already caused many victims, inflicted innumerable wounds on peaceful inhabitants and thrown society into a deep economic and humanitarian crisis. We invite all the parts involved in the conflict to prudence, to social solidarity and to action aimed at constructing peace. We invite our Churches in Ukraine to work towards social harmony, to refrain from taking part in the confrontation, and to not support any further development of the conflict.
27. It is our hope that the schism between the Orthodox faithful in Ukraine may be overcome through existing canonical norms, that all the Orthodox Christians of Ukraine may live in peace and harmony, and that the Catholic communities in the country may contribute to this, in such a way that our Christian brotherhood may become increasingly evident.
28. In the contemporary world, which is both multiform yet united by a shared destiny, Catholics and Orthodox are called to work together fraternally in proclaiming the Good News of salvation, to testify together to the moral dignity and authentic freedom of the person, “so that the world may believe.” This world, in which the spiritual pillars of human existence are progressively disappearing, awaits from us a compelling Christian witness in all spheres of personal and social life. Much of the future of humanity will depend on our capacity to give shared witness to the Spirit of truth in these difficult times.
29. May our bold witness to God’s truth and to the Good News of salvation be sustained by the Man–God Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour, who strengthens us with the unfailing promise: “Do not be afraid any longer, little flock, for your Father is pleased to give you the kingdom.”
Christ is the well–spring of joy and hope. Faith in Him transfigures human life, fills it with meaning. This is the conviction borne of the experience of all those to whom Peter refers in his words: “Once you were ‘no people’ but now you are God’s people; you ‘had not received mercy’ but now you have received mercy.”
30. With grace–filled gratitude for the gift of mutual understanding manifested during our meeting, let us with hope turn to the Most Holy Mother of God, invoking her with the words of this ancient prayer: “We seek refuge under the protection of your mercy, Holy Mother of God.” May the Blessed Virgin Mary, through her intercession, inspire fraternity in all those who venerate her, so that they may be reunited, in God’s own time, in the peace and harmony of the one people of God, for the glory of the Most Holy and indivisible Trinity.
Francis Kirill
Bishop of Rome Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia
Pope of the Catholic Church
The ROC is only interested in the persecution of Christians in “many countries of the Middle East and North Africa” because it provides a rationale for the satanic Putin and his bloodthirsty mob of assassins to wage war in said countries. Francis’s concern is genuine but he is too naive to understand how he’s being played.
Red, white, and blue uber alles along with the rainbow flag of the gay crusade. Ignorant Russophobic nonsense. Your hate is subhuman.
The US State Dept. created, trained, funds, arms, supplies, aids ISIS, DAESH, Al Qaeda. That fleet of new Toyotas was bought and paid for by Uncle Obama. Electric Uncle Sam supplied them with grad missiles just a few days ago. Americans have bombed Iraqi and Kurdish troops routing these terrorists to provide them with escape routes. Americans supply them at bases within Turkish and Saudi borders. Americans have acted as middle men in allowing these terrorists to sell Iraqi oil on the world market. Western, Blackwater operatives have been seen fighting with them.
So satanic aptly describes people of your mindset calling these terrorists “freedom fighters” and arming them to perpetrate genocide upon Christians to bring about the advent of one of their apocalyptic, supernatural leaders. You side with Satan and all his works here. Evil empire 101.
But Orthodox Russia and Putin are putting a stop to this evil in our time.
Dear to Christ, OOM,
It is not prudent to rush to judgment on what may or may not be another person’s motives. It smacks of projection so that what one accuses the other of is what the accuser senses in himself,or how he would conduct himself and so assumes that the one accused would do the same. But the it is the accuser who is guilty, and the one accused is not necessarily so. For that we must wait and look to judge him by his fruits–unless of course he has personally told us otherwise. But I presume you and ++Kirill have not been on such intimate terms, right?
Christ is in our midst.
lxc
Lexcaritas:
In any decent society – not that grotesque mockery of Christianity in contemporary Russia – +Kirill and Putin would be recognized for what they are: gangsters. The path of misery, torture, and murder stretching from the Caucusus through Europe to Syria are the plain “fruits” of their iron-fisted grip on power. Having eyes, see ye not?
And yet your pope is begging for scraps at our table?
The people YOU SUPPORT are engaging in crimes against humanity worthy of a reconvening of the Nuremberg Trials. Burning people to death in a trade union building in Odessa on 02May2014?! Human vivisectionist organ trade?! Cluster bombing play grounds?! Ballistic missiles fired at old folks homes?! That’s what your butchers are doing and +Patriarch Kirill and Putin are stopping. The only reason why you are trolling your nonsense is the simple fact Russia is ensuring your NAZI, lunatic fringe hate will no longer be tolerated.
The Russian Church and the Russian state is the last hope for Christendom in the face of the gay crusading, militant secularism Red, White and Blue Uber Alles imperialism you stand for. Your kind are murdering Christians the world over. Up until Russia got involved in the Middle East, the people you support were beheading 18 month old “infidels” on Al Jazeera. Your answer? Promote their russophobic propaganda. Subhumanity is too sanitized a word for the monstrous evil you stand for.
Flip side here is that NATO / US foreign policy created the whole entire mess in the Middle East to begin with. Bush, Cheney et. al. then Obama, Hillary et. al. ISIS is all their doing. They created and still create all the vacuums in power that Radical Islam then fills with all the resultant persecution of Christians we see today. Francis for his part had the podium all to himself at the Capitol to give a political speech for two hours wonder if he mentioned anything.
OOM, This is absolute and total nonsense
OOM declares, “The ROC is only interested in the persecution of Christians in “many countries of the Middle East and North Africa” because it provides a rationale for the satanic Putin and his bloodthirsty mob of assassins to wage war in said countries.”
In view of Russia’s many centuries of interest in—and fellowship and relations with Syria and the Middle East—OOM’s thesis would be difficult to sustain, I believe.
Patrick:
Patrick’s “interest in—and fellowship and relations with Syria…” apparently requires killing civilian women and children. Satan smiles at the support given to the diabolical barbaric Putin regime by useful idiots like Patrick.
It seems this Russophobe can’t get facts straight. American founded, funded, trained, armed, supplied, harbored ISIS/DAESH/Al Qaeda “US freedom fighters” spent two years with CIA operatives and Blackwater contractors raping, pillaging, murdering, vandalizing the region on electric Uncle Sam’s dime hoping to depose Assad for the Saudi monarchy and set up an apocalyptic theocracy on the ashes of a stable, secular Mideast. In the end, electric Uncle Sam lost the region and made Assad a permanent and preferable alternative. America through drone strikes over the last 10 years has murdered innocents in its way across the Islamic world. The white phosphorus bombs dropped on Gaza tell us who is killing men, women, children, old people, innocents and with whose weaponry. Yes,America loves bombing schools, hospitals, monasteries, mosques, churches in its wake. It has earned that reputation.
But where Russia has stepped in, the killing has stopped, innocents have been liberated and saved, and thd terrorists have been forced to flee to Saudi Arabia and Turkey for US aid and resupply. US air cover has escorted these child raping heroes of OON to American tax payer funded safety.
OOM is on the side of genocide screaming Red, White and Blue Uber Alles at every opportunity. The lunatic fringe, subhuman screeches of “Kill Putin! Russians Must Die!” brayed as reflex. I think the psychotropics have run out and the diaper is full.-
Not pertinent to this section, but important: Fr. Dokos/Kantzavelos scandal continues in Chicago. Latest report is that Dokos and lawyers are proposed a plea agreement, to be presented one day before the scheduled trial later this week. Interesting: Will he return cash? Will Bishop return his “gifts”? Will the other clergy who received “gifts” return theirs? Will he be “reassigned,” as is par for the course for the GOAA. As Alice says, it’s curiouser and curiouser. Stay tuned.
Declaration:
GREEK CATHOLIC CHURCHES HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXIST. THUS SPAKE +KIRILL.
The Patriarch is not a pope and he answers to the Russian Orthodox Church. The Patriarch signed a document the Vatican paid for with certain stipulations:
1). Rome will cooperate with Russian Orthodoxy as an equal partner in good faith and endorse Putin’s efforts to end persecution and ethnic cleansing of Christians while blessing Russia’s vision for a traditional, modern civilization in the face of a militant Western anti-Christian onslaught. Rome essentially declared Putin “defender of the Faith” and is treating with him the way it did with Byzantine emperors of old. This is the crux of the matter –
Rome in doing so is recognizing Russian primacy, RUSSKY MIR and Third Rome, sidelining ISTANBUL. There is also a canon which states that primacy will be determined by the capitol of the empire. Moscow. This is a far reaching surrender of papist diplomacy.
2). Unia is rejected as a means of preaching submission to the Chair of Peter. That statement in and of itself bodes ill for Uniates:
1. The banderofascists are pepetrating a neo Unia in the Ukraine by ethnic cleansing. The document calls on parties to cease hostilities and endorses Putin as a peacemaker to end anti-Christian persecution. Lvov just got ceded to Putin’s mercy.
2. This nullifies the papal ecclesiological model that Orthodoxy is lacking in ecclesiological fulness due to its lack of submission to the papacy. That is the basis of unia and Uniate propaganda, an ecclesiological model the pope says is now defunct. We will see if there is good faith. That papal supremacist line of heretical blather is now condemned, because it means that without Unia, Orthodoxy is deficient, yet this pope now says that calling for Unia is illegitimate going forward and he condemns it!
3. This means also that the Unia cannot proselytize and must confine itself to its communities. If it doesn’t, it violates the agreement in bad faith. Unia is being spread by violence, pogroms, ethnic cleansing, banderofascist ethnogenesis.
4. Any violations of these parameters or lack of movement on the part of the Vatican render this statement null and void DUE TO BAD FAITH. AND THEY ALREADY HAVE EXISTED SINCE 1990.
5. This statement condemns neo Unia and does not include Neo Uniates, but condemns these papal cadres and all actions promoting them, ie those now in the Ukraine.
6. The Unia is a religious counterfeit by its very constitution. Thus, it is an illegitimate orgasm. It will be ended. The people involved will be able to choose to be papal Christians of papal rite or Orthodox Christians of Orthodox rite. But unia will be eradicated.
3). A Vatican which pays to play is desperate. It will be given one way to advance dialogue: conversion to Orthodoxy. Since the Unia already as it exists constitutes bad faith in this redefinition of papal ecclesiology, this statement can only be null and void, stillborn. The only way for the papacy to place the stipulation into force is to give Uniates ultimatums while declaring the fact that Orthodoxy constitutes the Catholic Church, without deficiency. But once Rome does that, the Uniates become schismatics and rebels from their Orthodox Mother Churches, subject to canonical discipline and Rome falls under condemnation for inciting rebellion, fomenting schism, setting up a second altar, etc. Meaning canonically the continued existence of Uniate apostasy is unlawful and condemned, anathema.
4 ). Moreover, the Russian Orthodox victims of Uniate banderofascism have the ultimate say. Patriarchs come and go. Sobornost remains. Neither Putin nor +Patriarch Kurill will alienate their core of support to preserve a banderofascist unia ethnically cleansing Russian Orthodox Christians. With the certain, approaching death of the banderofascist state, the people will try its ideological bases for crimes against humanity. Since Putin has been blessed by the pope to defend persecuted Christians and banderofascist Uniates are doing the persecuting, any and all allowances made for Unia have no efficacy.
Thus, Unia is dead. And the fact that papists would even yet argue it is somehow amnestied shows both a continued hatred for Orthodoxy and bad faith as well as a total lack of understanding of what this papal PR stunt fundamentally means.
“Exist” is a nice, limiting word isn’t it? “You can “exist” but that’s about all. No proselytizing. No poaching among the Orthodox, and definitely no secret chin wags with the schismatic Orthodox and goading them on! But yeah–“exist” all you want.
Declaration:
“Work together… This world… awaits from US a compelling Christian witness…shared witness…” sounds like +Kirill is all in for ecumenism!
Branch theory was anathemized as heretical by the Moscow Sobor of 2000. While social cooperation was seen as possible. What this means then is that the papal church will now be confronted with conversion to Orthodoxy if it wishes to share a common dogmatic witness with the authentic Catholic Church, Orthodoxy.
WORK TOGETHER FRATERNALLY
Sweep all theological differences of over the last 1000 years plus “under the rug” and its all “Kum-ba-ya” from here on out. This then is a “common witness” .. “so that the world may believe” .. now lets play some Beatles.
Do the Orthodox know what a Jesuit really is? Have they read the blood oath Jesuit priests take? Do they understand what the black pope really is? Do they know what who operates the Vatican bank? What about that Jesuit operated worlds largest telescope in the Arizona desert called LUCIFER? How is that sex abuse commission of the Pope doing in defrocking Cardinals who protected pedophiles? Do the Orthodox agree with the titles given to the Jesuit Pope and what they really mean? Is the immaculate conception of Mary really true?
They are brothers on a mission from God, they are getting the band back together again.
No way this is the beginning of the one world religion centered in Rome, right? This is not the only church signing up with the Jesuit Pope. Why, that would be conspiratorial lunatic fringe to believe that this is a sign of the end times, right?
This is the short list and it is all I will say about it other than have nothing to do with fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
Dear to Chris Ashley, please serious. Do you know “what a really Jesuit is”? I’m aware of the leftism of the order as a whole, but also know a number who are quite solid and faithful. What the . .. . are you talking about “blood oaths”? Who operates the Vatican Bank? Tell us since you apparently claim to know. If so, it must not be that beg a secret. How did you get your information and verify it? When did “the Jesuits” operate the largest telephone network in Arizona? And if it was called Lucifer, are you aware that that may simply mean Light Bearer and refer to Christ Himself as many of the early Fathers applied the term, or so I read just last night in a non-Catholic history. I desist at this point because our Lord warned us of judgment for every idle word and the internet is a great temptation for many to write endless rants which do not bear good fruit.
Christ is in our midst.
lxc
Exactly. This whole entire event took place in a “fly by night” fashion. In Cuba. At the airport. Was it an elevator lobby? Raul Castro presiding. It was all quickly announced and acted upon. Very much in Jesuit style. MP too. No feedback or input from the Orthodox people, no “Catholicity” or “Universality” but all coming from the top down and before anyone could say “wait a minute” the papers were all whipped up and signed. It was a “coup” on the Orthodox Faith.
Also just from an Orthodox “spiritual” perspective can anyone imagine the Saints and Angels in that room there?
St. Mark of Ephesus for example? Maximus the Confessor? Saint Photius Patriarch of Constantinople? Or what if Fidel joined in on the ceremony? Phwoooom all the angels would have flew out out of there to rejoicing of all the demons if any were there though probably not. Cuba as throughout the Caribbean have all that voodoo and witchcraft mixed in with their Catholicism/christianity just doesn’t seem like a venue where Orthodox should go to for “historic” moments in its Church history in the first place.
“Do the Orthodox know what a Jesuit really is?” Evidently you dont know who St. Peter the Aleut is.
“What about that Jesuit operated worlds largest telescope in the Arizona desert called LUCIFER?” They don’t. Its just on the same land as the Vatican Telescope. Thats like saying that an Atheist lives in your apartment building, so you’re an atheist.
“Do the Orthodox agree with the titles given to the Jesuit Pope and what they really mean?” I guess you dont know alot about the Orthodox at all.
“Is the immaculate conception of Mary really true?” See above.
“No way this is the beginning of the one world religion centered in Rome, right?” You’re correct. Its not.
“Why, that would be conspiratorial lunatic fringe to believe that this is a sign of the end times, right?” Again, you’re correct. Its not.
“but rather expose them” Better watch out Pope, a virtually anonymous internet poster is going to expose your darkness and bring your church down!! LOL.
So long in coming. Glory be to God for this meeting.
And Rome can keep the checks coming, endorsing RUSSKY MIR and put in place architecture to repent and return to Orthodoxy.
Maybe take a look/listen at this interview of Patriarch Kirill. It’s all in English, sometimes with his own words and sometimes with his interpreter’s which seem to me to be accurate. His Holiness understands English well, and is probably reluctant to speak English in public because he has an accent — not as bad as he thinks it is, in my opinion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9CqERK4Cd4
I never noticed. Thank you, Father James.
This seems as if it was written by Pope Francis and/or his team of theological “experts.” This is especially noticeable in the passages regarding the Unia. It also nearly disregards any theological differences as purely circumstantial and old fashion. I wonder if the Patriarch had a full understanding of the language in which it was written and what exactly he was signing. I don’t see any Orthodox or Russian sounding rhetoric in any part of this so called joint statement.
The Patriarch answers to the Russian Orthodox church and to the Russian Orthodox people. We have sobornost. There will be other patriarchs, and there will be less Alfeevs. Unia is a dead letter without a future. It will perish with the impending collapse of the banderofascist state.
Alfeevs?
Renovationist, liberal churchmen.
++Kyrill speaks and reads English fine; and +Hilarion was there who is quite, quite fluent.. With our sister, Karen, I say thank God as well. Better to light a candle, than to curse the darkness or be not overcome evil with evil, but overcome evil with Good.
lxc
Non-mouse–Am I to assume that you don’t think the Patriarch knew what he was signing. If so, he is completely inept and should be deposed. I however believe he studied the document thoroughly and agreed to sign based on content. Don’t be so naïve.
The “official” signed declaration was bi-lingual: RUSSIAN and Italian. No excuse for linguistic misunderstanding on the part of +Kirill, who has a long history as an ecumenical leader in the World Council of Churches.
Looking for DNA in this document? See text of the Metropolitan HILARION speech at the Vatican Synod on the Family.
https://mospat.ru/en/2012/10/17/news73157/
I believe this document was a mistake for the Patriarch to sign. Here is a good explanation:
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/90768.htm
I’m just a naive little mouse (or so thinks Johnkal) but I agree, Mikail, it was a mistake. Johnkal is quite the black pot.
I saw that as well Mikail. Also, if you scroll down to the bottom of the page the Priest George Maximov has joined in with his critique. Archpriest Andrew Phillips has published a summary of a critique from the Metropolitan of Limasol. The points seem to be valid so I find myself wondering what Moscow’s thinking was. They have to know that Orthodox laity and clergy are going to go over these with a fine-toothed comb, right? That’s who we are; that’s what we do. I’ll be very interested to hear Moscow’s response to the critiques.
I do hope this gets cleared up. Living out Orthodoxy is difficult enough as it is. All this reading is really hard– especially for someone like me who moves his lips when he reads!
Moscow knew, but when you are getting a check for a photo op from a desperate papacy you take it, allow the Church to speak, then go back to Rome and say, “Look, ‘brother,’ no unia, no filioque, no banderofascism, a common Orthodox Paschalion, RUSSKY MIR, then we can possibly pursue this further: without joint confession of Orthodoxy, we can’t help you get back on your feet.”
Declaration:
THANKS FOR THE LECTURE. DID LIDIA LEONOVA ACCOMPANY +K ON THIS JUNKET?
You did know the Vatican has a religious order of “hostesses” (resident at the Vatican) on its staff for visiting papist muckity mucks, clerics, popes, those who don’t prefer little boys?
I can’t get over how much NOISE has been generated about the Pope’s meeting with Patriarch Kirill in Cuba, Aren’t ANY of you aware that the reason V.Putin SENT Patriarch Kirill to Cuba was simply a defensive reaction to President Obama’s MASTER STROKE of lowering the U.S.-Cuban wall? OF COURSE the meeting caught everyone by surprise–there was no discussion preceding it at all in the Churches! IT WAS SOLELY THE DEFENSIVE REACTION OF VLADIMIR PUTIN–LIKE MOVING A BISHOP ON A CHESS BOARD!
I thought you retired from this forum?
Indeed, I did, “Mikail!” You’re right!
Though I have never been RC I have over the years taken at least a passing interest in some of the goings-on when I come across articles here and there. I remember some years ago reading an article that suggested that Byzantine Catholics have always sensed that “real” Catholics in the Vatican held Byzantine Catholics to be second-class citizens. There may be something to that because it seems that Uniates are starting to seriously believe that Rome has just thrown them under the bus. As V.V. Putin and his team have done on the secular diplomatic front, Kirill and his team have out-maneuvered their opponents in the Ukraine and the Uniates are beginning to sweat.
Given the Havana Declaration, it is evident that Patriarch Kirill and Metropolitan Hilarion (Alfeev) have revived the Moscow Patriarchate’s politically-motivated ecumenism from which it allegedly renounced as a condition of union with ROCOR in 2007. In protest against +Kirill’s ecumenism, a number of priests in Moldova have recently ceased commemorating their bishops. One wonders if the convert parishes of ROCOR-MP will be the next group to rebel against Moscow’s ecumenism?
Doubtful, only irresponsible hotheads would be moved in that direction at this point. Kirill has reassured his flock that there will be no unity with heretics. The joint statement was a call to coordinated action regarding our common moral witness in the light of the West’s aggressive pursuit of moral decadence. That’s about the size of it. You might notice that this statement has a different tone and content than the pablum put out by Rome/Istanbul.
Nothing of the sort. The Mother Church anathemized branch theory but affirmed social cooperation with other Christians at the Moscow Sobor of 2000. What was accomplished here was papal endorsement of the role of Russian Orthodox Church and state in defending Christendom. This is as much political ecumenism as was the Edict of Milan or Holy Alliance of Tsar’ Alexander I.
The Russian Federation is NOT a Russian Orthodox state to be “endorsed” by any Pope! Both the Edict of Milan and Tsar Alexander Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov’s “Holy” Alliance are prime examples of imperial ecumenism exceeding ANYTHING done in the NCC or WCC!
Of course, the Russian Tsar was baptized but Emperor Constantine was not! The latter deferred his Baptism until the end, and then it was Arian (as the Ec. Patriarchate remained until Julian the Apostate FINALLY appointed a Nicene Patriarch)!
I don’t regard the russophobic, Renovationist pronouncements of cyber stalking, retired Bishops as anything but unfortunate, uninformed and unseemly harassment which doesn’t matter at all.
But you can turn yourself in to Pokrov and ask for help. You should for your sake. Perhaps they know if a good twelve step program with sponsors?
+All Holy Theotokos, save you.
I have to agree with MW in that Bp. TF has probably passed the point where his posts are anything other an embarrassment to all.
Anyone who likes Leon Russell is not an embarrassment!
Thanks, Gregory. Leon Russell and Big Joe Turner are essentials for me. Compared to their creativity the foregoing mindless remarks of Michael W and misha are what Ever-Memorable Archbishop John (Shakhovskoy) used to call “myshinnaya vozn’a” (the rustling of the mice).
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2012/05/was-constantine-great-baptized-arian.html
This was part and parcel of the revisionist perspective on the era of Constantine.
Here is yet another take on the Havana event, including both pluses and minuses.
Apologies for my sluggishness in joining in this discussion. As some of you know, my language skills have been glacially slow since my stroke. I wanted to study Havana carefully and to ponder articles from Russia.
You might expect me as an Orthodox rejoicing the use of the term “uniatism” in the Havana text’s Point 25, but not I. Nor is one of the most courageous voices in current Moscow, Protodeacon Andrei Kuraev, finding Point 25 far too broad. A western parish (Catholic or Protestant) switching as a body into Orthodoxy can now be accused of “uniatism.” (Or again, vice versa.) For an impressive Western-Rite example of current Orthodoxy you can see http://www.orthodoxlynchburg.org
The Havana text uses the term “religious freedom” in dubious ways, again facilitating Moscow to keep trampling its own minorities. The text’s Point 14 specifically states that “in Russia…Christians can now freely confess their faith.” That is not true. A biting February 13 article by Moscow journalist Aleksandr Soldatov notes that despite Point 14 “the Vatican is quite aware of systematic discrimination in Russia against Christian minorities, including its own Catholics.” Some of the continuing violations: forcible expulsions of clergy; the failure to return western church buildings stolen by the Soviet regime; serious limitations on Catholic and other non-Orthodox charitable and educational activities. On that issue Soldatov is right; for more details you can look at http://www.forum18.org/archive.php?article_id=2028 or http://www.forum18.org/archive.php?article_id=1899 or http://www.uscirf.gov/sites/default/files/Russia%202015.pdf Havana’s Point 14 has given Moscow an undeserved p.r. victory.
Part of the February 12 defeat for religious freedom was the geographical site. Just a few years ago it was thought that a meeting of the Pope and the Moscow Patriarch might be Vienna, a truly neutral city. The current celebration of the Castro regime’s capital as allegedly “neutral” is Orwellian. (On the continuing lack of genuine religious freedom in Cuba, see http://www.uscirf.gov/sites/default/files/Cuba%202015.pdf)
Another problem: the Havana joint text’s use of the term “proselytism.” The text’s Point 24 will now aid enemies of religious freedom such as the Kremlin, which has long encouraged the smear term “proselytism” against religious minorities (including Roman Catholics). The Havana text is alarmingly vague — a frequent Soviet-style method. Without any specific content the term can be used in the future against any person or parish voluntarily converting from Roman Catholicism into Eastern Orthodoxy, or vice versa. (For more thoughts you can look at http://www.firstthings.com/article/2004/10/dont-call-it-proselytism)
Sorry if I seem obsessed with religious freedom; it is just that I am a retired expert on that topic. I do not claim to be a theologian, just a retired journalist with lots of experience of interviewing real theologians. Alas, with my post-stroke language skills I cannot conduct interviews at this point. But I do have more personal impressions about the Havana event overall — mixed.
Some of the Feb 12 text’s passages seem to have vague, secular-style diplomacy-talk, evading the problems needed for a genuine path to east-west reunion. However, other passages are truly eloquent. For example, points 8, 9, 10, 16, 19, 20 (although it should have specifically denounced homosexuality), 21 (ditto abortion; and the words about euthanasia should have been stronger), 22, 23, and 29. All Orthodox should be grateful for Point 10 specifically naming the two Orthodox bishops abducted in 2013. Excellent in Point 15 are these words: “In particular, we observe that the transformation of some countries into secularized societies, estranged from all reference to God and to His truth, constitutes a grave threat to religious freedom. It is a source of concern for us that there is a current curtailment of the rights of Christians, if not their outright discrimination, when certain political forces, guided by an often very aggressive secularist ideology, seek to relegate them to the margins of public life.”
Nevertheless, there is lack of “sobornost” in the way Patriarch Kirill agreed on the Havana meeting apparently without serious discussion in the Russian Orthodox Church’s council of bishops. In Orthodox tradition conciliarity is hugely important. Trying to bypass Orthodox sobornost is a dead end, not authentic east-west reconciliation.
Mr Uzzell, thank you for this thoughtful analysis. I agree that there is much to be desired in the way of religious freedom in Russia.
However, let us not be too hasty in congratulating ourselves on our own freedoms. The freedom of speech (and religion) is merely pro forma in these United States presently. I can’t imagine a scenario in which the American oligarchy actually removes the First Amendment de jure but I can foresee a thousand instances in which religious freedoms especially will be overwhelmed –and have been–by the federal government.
We would be wise to hold our tongues until we are assured that freedom of speech is completely restored. (A good benchmark of that would be restoring Brendan Eich to his former position at Mozilla.)
George, I don’t see that Mr. Uzzell praised our own society in this respect at all; much less did he bestow “hasty congratulations”. He should “hold his tongue”? Or if not, we should hold ours?
Or are you not replying to his post at all?
Just a few observations:
1). You are absolutely right that this statement is non binding on Russian Orthodox inasmuch as it does not issue forth from sobornost and is predicated on nothing more than the Patriarch speaking for the Russian church as it’s chief shephard, but speaking so personally. It is a document Russian Orthodoxy will only validate according to the terms of the Russian Orthodox people.
2). Uniatism is understood to embody specifically Rome’s use of Unia as a religious counterfeit to cause Orthodox Christians to waver and adopt papal apostasy from the Church. At the outset, Rome maintains that “the Orthodox must establish unity with the Chair of Peter in order to fully embrace the reality of the Catholic Church.” In other words, Rome insists on Unia and uniatism, just another form of it, rendering this statement a lie. Rome admitting that the Orthodox Church was a full ecclesiological expression in toto of the Catholic Church without anything lacking would validate Rome’s statement that “uniatism is abandoned as a means of restoring union with the See of Rome.” An ecumenical language which read “The Western Church seeks dialogue in full humility with the Eastern Church prepared to compromise on nonessentials while validating the witness of the pre Schism Church” would make this statement something more than just another papal, Uniate lie.
3). The context of religious freedom in societies representing a homogenous religious tradition of their people has a different understanding and application than in secular, liberal democracies. For over 80 years the Orthodox Church of the Russian people was militantly and brutally displaced from society. That was a crime against the religious freedom of the Russian people. Steps are being taken to remediate the state’s sin against the religious freedom of the people and restore the religious identity of the state. In that vain, traditional religious groups which were also militantly and brutally secularized such as Islam, Buddhism, Judaism and Old Believers are rightly being given the state’s sanction and support to reestablish themselves as well. The state is acting in order to remediate crimes against religious freedom both of the past and the present.
When Rome or LCMS or Jehovah’s Witnesses or Scientologists or Charismatics or Mormons or Hare Krishnas or any other foreign religious groups religiously invade Russia to proselytize and propagate their sectarian beliefs to gain converts by deception or by tubes of tooth paste and rolls of toilet paper, such groups are exploiting the crime the Soviet state perpetrated against the religious freedom of the people and using brutal, militant secularization and religious ignorance to gain converts. Such groups thus act as accessories to Soviet crimes against religious freedom and use persecution of religion to propagate imprisonment of conscience to ignorance rather than freedom of conscience. The point here is that Russia is remediating crimes against religious freedom to undo them so that future informed choices can be made by people who can freely decide whether or not their consciences are best served by foreign faiths and doctrines.
Can’t say I agree with you, Mr. Uzzell. I’m sure one is free to confess whatever religion they like in Russia. This does not mean that every religious establishment is invited to set up shop or do as they please. That would betray the Orthodox conviction that Orthodoxy is true and, at most, other religious expressions may partially reflect this truth to one extent or another. Thus, encouraging or facilitating the spread of error is not really in anyone’s interest. The question is degree of tolerance, not any question of putting heterodoxy on an equal footing with Orthodoxy. In that sense, it is a zero sum situation and the Church, hopefully, understands this. If cheerleaders for “religious freedom” reject this, that is fine. They have their little project; we have ours. But do not be surprised that we are not allies or friends and that we work at odds.
Misha wrote this diversion from the issue:
“This does not mean that every religious establishment is invited to set up shop or do as they please.”
INVITED? the problem is not “inviting” or not “inviting.” The question is who is ALLOWED to set up and/or DO anything!
It is only a problem for those who believe, as the Romans did, that “all religions are equally true, equally false and equally useful”. For those of us who take the claims of religions at face value, and actually believe the truth claims of Orthodoxy, there can be no equivocation. Liberty of conscience has its due, but that is not viewpoint neutrality at large. That proposition is a creation of 20th century American progressivism. An ideology which need not apply to work in Russia.
There are Orthodox standards and then there are other standards…
“I write these things not wishing to cause distress to the heretics or to rejoice in their ill-treatment — God forbid; but, rather, rejoicing and being gladdened at their return. For what is more pleasing to the Faithful than to see the scattered children of God gathered again as one? Neither do I exhort you to place harshness above the love of men. May I not be so mad!
I beseech you to do and to carry out good to all men with care and assiduity, becoming all things to all men, as the need of each is shown to you; I want and pray you to be wholly harsh and implacable with the heretics only in regard to cooperating with them or in any way whatever supporting their deranged belief. For I reckon it hatred towards man and a departure from Divine love to lend support to error, so that those previously seized by it might be even more greatly corrupted.”
+ St. Maximus the Confessor, Patrologia Graeca, Vol. 91 col. 465c
Right, Misha, “Keep your Samaritans out of our “Holy” Russia!”
{Thanks for attributing belief in religious tolerance to the Romans! Who knew that Diocletian was a progressive!!!!!
And here we’ve been believing that St Constantine INTRODUCED tolerance!}
Misha,
Fr. Georges Florovsky has an excellent essay examining the functiong & existence of the church in the “real world,” so to speak (if you would like the refrence, or supect “redaction,” blah, blah, I’m happy to provide it) where he observes:
It seems quite obvious that the Lord prepared the church for suffering (“These things have I spoken to you, that you should not be offended. They shall put you out of the synagogues: yes, the time comes, that whoever kills you will think that he does God service. Jn. 16:1-2) and that its “natural history” was summed up by the eschatological words of the Psalmist (“How shall we sing the Lord’s song in a foreign land?” Ps. 136:4). To say “we are in the world, but not of the world” has been overused to the point of meaninglessness, and it seems terribly confusing to suggest a commonality between ““all religions are equally true, equally false and equally useful” and tolerance. I believe the fundamental issue is that the final harbinger of the Truth is the Church, entrusted to us, and so wonderfully expressed in Antiphon 12 after the 4th Gospel of the Matins of Great & Holy Friday, where the Lord recounts to the Jews all that He has done for them, only to be repaid with scourging & spitting, and ultimately the Cross, He cries out: “I can take no more, I will make the Gentiles mine!” If that Truth we hold is not so attract that it is irresistible to us and to the world, all the legislation in the world will be insufficient to protect it from the corruption of the world. And that is our fault.
That is why we convert them to Orthodoxy and we don’t embrace their heresies, but how is it you take ecclesiolgical soundness to mean detachment from the world?!
This is yet ANOTHER EXAMPLE ILLUSTRATING YOU QUOTING Fr. FLOROVSKY IS ABOVE YOUR PAYGRADE. Here he talked about the need for Orthodox witness to convert the heterodox. Throughout his testimony of this witness he maintained the ecclesiological wholeness of the Orthodox Church as the Una Sancta where he called for “universal conversion to Orthodoxy.”
Later Fr. FLOROVSKY came to regret his participation in the ecumenical movement because his Orthodox witness was both ignored then excluded from the agenda.
Thus the questions begged by your disjointed ecumaniac sanctimony are a). When is uniatism going to be abandoned with this pope ending its apostate existence? b). When will the Vatican be ready to create an architecture of dialogue requisite for hearing and acting on Orthodox witness to facillitate its reunion with the Catholic Church, Orthodoxy?
So here you are asserting another fallacious liberal, Renovationist argument to assert a likewise heretical conclusion, associating your nonsense with Fr. FLOROVSKY who stood for the exact opposite of what you advocate.
Syosset – Crestwood meta-erudition trying yet again to fake it to make it in an apostate land of Renovationist, heretical ecclesiology.
You, Mr. Warren, are truly an empty hat. My comment from Fr. Florovsky has absolutely nothing to do with ecumenism or Florovsky’s participation in the ecumenical movement. “Here he talked about the need for Orthodox witness to convert the heterodox?” You are an imbecile and have never read Fr. Florovsky, in Russian, English, or Esperanto. Here he was speaking about the mistake of referring to monasticism as a separate calling, rather than a rigor of the one calling to all of us, in an essay entitled, “Empire and Desert: Antinomies of Christian History,” in Volume Two of the Collected Works. I used it as an appropriate analogy.
Is it possible you are not embarrassed, Mr. Warren, or are you troubled & calculating enough to be doing this purposefully?
The quotation from Fr. Florovosky had absolutely nothing to do with “the need for Orthodox witness to convert the heterodox.” Nothing. It was from an essay entitled, ““Empire and Desert: Antinomies of Christian History,” which was about the error of referring to monasticism as a separate calling, and not a rigor of the path to which we are all called. I was making an analogy. You have never read Fr. Florovsky, nor were you taught by his “spiritual son.” These are fabrications. When you associate an Orthodox Bishop with a quote referring to bestiality, and the Chancellor of the the OCA with Robert Mapplethorpe, you are out of control. This is the edge of real darkness, and you have brought it here.
Again you concede the points which render your ideological, heretical Renovationist drivvle empty. Hiding in ad hominem stupidity.
Your redaction has nothing to do with Fr. FLOROVSKY insisting that we convert the heterodox to Orthodoxy. That was the context of the exchange. Elsewhere where you decontextualized Fr. Florovsky in your decontextualized ideological propaganada, I corrected your Renovationist nonsense: Fr. Florovsky’s thought behind your redacted quote meant monasticism was a higher stage of an Orthodox anthropology to which we are all called, not a validation of Fr. Schmemann’s propaganda of escapism fueling secularization which you tried to have read into a quote by agendized redaction. That is what he wrote.
While the phrases “Una Sancta” and “universal conversion to Orthodoxy” are verbatim quotes of Fr. Florovsky. Crestwood Dilletantes should stick to being Eastern Rite Anglicans and baffling unsuspecting liberal heretics with disjointed, luminous haze instead of throwing tantrums around Orthodox grown ups who repeatedly take them to the woodshed and send them home packing to the ECUSA.
Fr. FLOROVSKY’s writings are above your paygrade and he isn’t a political prop you will revise to suit your Crestwood, Renovationist needs. I have evidenced my fluency in Fr. Florovsky, having one of his spiritual sons as a constituent part of my formation. You on the other hand continually evidence no comprehension of either the context or his thought in your Crestwood, Renovationist meta-erudite redactions of what he has written. And I have illustrated that. You are a liberal, political hack, a fraud and a heretic. The only thing you achieve is shouting it with insults. To evade discovery. Typical liberal degenerate fleeing accountability.
Kinda like the ones in Syosset – Crestwood covering their 45+ year record of larceny of tens of millions of dollars from the OCA faithful.
When a retired, OCA Bishop uses the internet to stalk and engage in character assassination, banderofascist propaganda, russophobia and ridiculous Renovationist diatribes, he pleads with the faithful to be recognized for his infidelity to the Church.
When a crypto-papist hack with a Renovationist, Uniate agenda uses the OCA website to endorse cults of papal Saints shamelessly aligning himself with liberal “iconography of homosexuality” dissembling, heretical dilletantes like yourself he all but shouts his veneration of Robert Mapplethorpe as a saint.
Exposing to the world the sewer of Syosset – Crestwood’s Renovationist, heretical orientation with you as its foul mouthed and unread Bagdad Bob is made easy. Because your message and delivery continually validate my points, especially when you lack the reading comprehension skills to accurately reply to the rebuttals.
Syosset-Crestwood has resorted to a Gong Show model of political partisanship and ad hominem immaturity in its desperation to flee indictment. Here you are shouting it with four letter words with your clones as ridiculously ignorant and fidelity challenged as yourself. Gilligan’s Island passion play at St. Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal church.
Mr. Warren,
Bearing in mind, of course, that you “have evidenced [your] fluency in Fr. Florovsky, having one of his spiritual sons as a constituent part of [your] formation.,” would it surprise you to discover that your unformed statement, “While the phrases “Una Sancta” and “universal conversion to Orthodoxy” are verbatim quotes of Fr. Florovsky (sic),” is a total fabrication? Not a single verbatim quote of “Una Sancta” in any volume of the entire Collective Works (though he was published in the magazine Una Sancta on many occasions); his only reference to “universal conversion” is in regard to St. Gregory of Nyssa’s belief in ἀποκατάστασις , which, of course, later fathers declared heresy. This obviously begs the question, how did you acquire a fluency without ever reading the man’s writings?
Mr. Warren, have you ever heard of a man-in-the-middle sniffer packet exploit? I understand the frustration of continually being exposed, but the reality is that you invite it, and only you can stop it. Your tone has turned nastier & increasingly uglier of late, and you seem to be lashing out at anyone who makes the most benign comment in your direction. Personally, I detest bullies, particularly those who believe they are “anonymous.” Mr. Warren, have you ever heard of a man-in-the-middle sniffer packet exploit? This a polite request: turn off the CAPS & tone it down. Do it now.
I believe that the church in which I was baptized and brought up ‘is’ in very truth ‘the Church’, i.e. ‘the true’ Church and the ‘only’ true Church . . . I am therefore compelled to regard all other Christian churches as deficient, and in many cases can identify these deficiencies accurately enough. Therefore, for me, Christian reunion is simply universal conversion to Orthodoxy. I have no confessional loyalty; my loyalty belongs solely to the ‘Una Sancta’.
– Fr. Georges Florovsky, “Confessional Loyalty in the Ecumenical Movement”
Mr. Warren,
…You did not read Fr. Florovsky, but picked a single quote off of the blog of Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick. I have found two independent sources of his use of the term “Una Sancta” in ecumenical circles – and I stand corrected – but you absolutely contrive his “thought”:
No, he did not write anything like that, Mr. Warren, you deceiver and manipulator, and you knew that when you posted this. He was increasingly frustrated in his dealings with the WCC and told them, “You have no right to be calling yourselves ‘churches,'” and professed the need for them to return to the “One Holy” – Una Sancta – catholic church. Seriously, Mr. Warren, have you no shame? Are you so fragile you would stoop to such a level of deviousness to appear you are “superior?” I am truly sickened.
It is you who just admitted you haven’t Fr. FLOROVSKY. What I wrote IS HIS point.
That the point of Orthodox participation in dialogue is universal conversion of the heterodox to Orthodoxy, the Una Sancta.
You are a Renovationist heretic who doesn’t know what you are talking about and you just admitted it again.
Checkmate.
The ECUSA called. They would like your input on gender neutral liturgical vestments for transgendered bishops.
You Syosset-Crestwood unread clown.
Hike up your pants, Mr. Warren, for I’ve caught you again. The significant, mainstream writing of Fr. Florovsky I know backwards & forwards, so I know when you’re lying. I know when you lie about science, lie about Sts. Chrysostom & Cyprian of Carthage, and lie about abortion & church attendance in Russia. Your only defense is filthy name-calling and insult. Your critics increase and you are increasingly lashing out at anyone who addresses you. I predicted that if you didn’t leave to troll elsewhere, you would be humiliated. Not only have you worn out your trite phrases of Crestwood-Syosset, EUSA, and the other assorted childish hack – “like a dog returning to his own vomit” – but you’ve worn out your welcome. I politely asked you to tone it down, Mr. Warren. Do you hear that sniffing? It’s no clown…
You have misquoted backwards and fled when called upon it, showing you don’t know what you are talking about.
While the question of the phronema was settled on that thread where you fled after being shown to redact wrongly maintaining that Fr. FLOROVSKY taught the phronema as Continual Reformation which is the exact opposite of his position. My paraphrases I stated there and they are accurate.
The rest of this is your heretical drivvle and ad hominem stupidity shouting your Crestwood meta-erudite stupidity. You are a fraud and you don’t know what you are talking about. The fact that only Eastern Rite Protestants take you seriously shouts that Orthodoxy is neither your nor their concern.
Take it to the ECUSA. St. Gregory of Nyssa needs you to speak to a workshop on “What do I do when I encounter Orthodox relatives which condemn SSA as sin, not iconography, and show nothing but hatred for my understanding of NAMBLA?”
Master Warren/Rostislav/Brother Nathanael, etc.. seems to have succumbed,perhaps with a shudder and shiver, to a kind of religious self-abuse through rhythmical repetition of sordid malicious epithet. Have I not captured his style?
It might be noted that some instances/entities/institutions/leaders of the Church of Russia have STOPPED COMMEMORATING Patriarch Kirill, after his meeting with the Pope and the ensuing Statement he signed. Let’s pray that the Spirit will guide all to a beneficial resolution of this serious problem!
Many Russians are a bit on edge with all this touchy-feely dialogue with Rome and the sugar coating of Orthodox doctrine regarding relations with the heterodox. We have long memories. Some of the language used and agreed to is regrettable but so far I have not seen anything to indicate that the MP, at least, has any intention of betraying the faith. But I’m sure Pat. Kirill must be aware that his every burp is observed with baited breath.
Misha, no Orthodox Patriarch should use language that can be considered, according to you, to be regrettable! Here is just ONE example of regrettable language agrred to and certified by the Patriarch of Moscow, anguage that has SHOCKED hierarchs and monasteries in Russia:”
“Orthodox and Greek Catholics are in need of reconciliation and of mutually acceptable forms of co–existence.”
A retired in disgrace, Renovationist, Russophobe Bishop shouting at the de facto primate of the Orthodox Church. I think that says it all about the sick trends in our OCA which cost us so dearly for 45+ years.
I think you meant de facto Pope.
There can be no doubt that Moscow strategizes but this is a real surprise! Details are not out yet as far as I can tell. Talk about taking center stage in the defense of Christians!
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/91977.htm
As the original post about the up coming council is closed I’ll stick this in here. I only do so because of an observation (among many) made by Metropolitan Seraphim of Pireaus. It was made in all seriousness but I couldn’t help but laugh. Regarding the invitation of Protestants and Catholics to the meeting as “observers” +Seraphim points out that “observers” were never in attendance at the councils. Heretics were not invited as “observers” but as “defendants“, so that they might repent! What a swell idea!
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/91380.htm
So much fuss about this Congress of Various Representative Bishops which Has been *pre-designated* as both a GREAT and a HOLY COUNCIL! What overweening vanity!
This threatens to make Eastern Orthodoxy look ridiculous! Of course NOTHING could top the recent dedication of a statue of HIMSELF, by Patriarch Bartholomew in the garden of Halki! Why, this big grey idol even has SPECTACLES! Well, “first” in something, but I’m not sure of just what in this case!
Little children! Keep yourself from idols!
To the dueling Michael’s: Warren and Stankovich…
Michael Bauman,
Any excuse to pursue the Fathers & the fathers is no blunder, and heeding your neurologist and the advice of the Minnesota Nun Study is certainly a blessing in disguise, particularly when you can – if you will pardon the expression – faire quelque chose au nez et à la barbe de quelqu’un. Worth its weight in gold, I tell you…
PS In the environment of political correctness, somehow Asian & Sicilian jokes are surely to “trigger” outrage…
Michael you just have to stop! You are pushing Eastern-Rite Revisionists Protestantism with a sprinkling of Monophysitism. Bad boy. Go to the corner and have a time out.
Peter
Michael S. In the context of the movie, The Princess Bride, the quote I gave is the end of a massive analytical attempt on the part of the Sicilian to “out think” his opponent in order to kill him while knowing nothing about him. He suffers the consequences of his own hubris (the thunk at the end).
Dueling Fathers, dueling banjos, dueling thinkers…it is all the same to me and ends up in the “doubtful disputation” that St. Paul warns us of.