Someone sent this to me and I had to laugh . . .
When a RC Cardinal serves with the Ecumenical Patriarch and an Orthodox bishop serves with a Pope, it must mean we’re one big family. Maybe Bart will get a Pachamama under the tree this year.
I love you
You love me
We’re a happy family
With a great big hug
And a kiss from me to you
Won’t you say you love me too
Excuse me while I go and vomit.
Much more “concelebration” happened when the pope visited Patriarch Teoctist in Romania 2002, with both participating in services fully vested, etc.
https://orthoshoc.wordpress.com/2010/03/24/teoctist-arapasu-a-slujit-desi-doar-liturghia-cuvantului-cu-papa-ioan-paul-al-ii-lea-s-au-mai-citit-crezul-si-sf-evanghelie/
https://theworldnews.net/ro-news/galerie-foto-1999-papa-ioan-paul-al-ii-lea-a-vizitat-romania-fiind-primul-suveran-pontif-care-a-mers-intr-o-tara-majoritar-ortodoxa-de-la-marea-schisma-din-1054
and if you have not noticed, nobody has been swallowed by the Catholic Church as a result.
This anti-Constantinople propaganda, only serves to intensify the “Black Bart Derangement Syndrome”
Well, um, Bartholomew was swallowed up, throwing our Church into a major schism by going into Ukraine so he could get closer to the Unia with the hope of opening up a path from Eastern to Western Europe for NATO and the State Department, but, yeah, no biggie, I guess. Thanks for the links.
ApS, if anything, the links you provide show us how insidious it was to get involved in the ecumenist movement in the first place. Yes, Bartholomew can point to earlier such concelebrations and say “See! Why are you all picking on me?” And he’d be right. The slippery slope has now turned into a cliff and for that many bishops and primates are to blame.
Having said that, I think we can see the handwriting on the wall. Despite these other primates’ actions before this time, it is the EP who will take the blame for leading the Orthodox into a false unia.
As a psychologist there is a thing called ‘ habituation’ meaning if something is repeated or becomes background, then you begin to accept it as the norm. This happens in normal life, like someone with a tatoo that you stop seeing when u meet,etc.
Well comments here have just shown that.
Yes we are where we are because the Orthodox church has been sleep walking along the path of good intentions. And u know where that leads.
It’s all mood music, like identity Politics. Personally holding the hand of a possible paedophile does not appeal to me. Over the top? Listen there are so many in rc church, who is say is clean? I object to being with them full stop.
I find it humorous that in an effort to throw shade on Bartholomew, there are those who will point to other Churches who did something “worse” in such-a-such year. Whereas Bartholomew has been doing it consistently for almost 30 years! And his predecessors have been doing it for x amount of years.
Mikhail,
Pat. Bartholomew will never be called to give an answer because the majority of the Pats are ecumenists as well. How can they charge him when they’ve done it? It’s only a matter of degree. For my part I don’t attempt to clear him by charging others; I merely try to be be consistent with my views. Pat Bart is open and easy for all to see. It’s the ones who act traditional when they’re really not who we should be more concerned about.
Asp, You do not find anything wrong with those links? Personally I would simply attend the Romanian old calendarists, i do not trust the official mainline Romanian church one bit.
The old calendar churches in Romania and Bulgaria have joined with the old calendar Genuine Orthodox Christians in Greece. There are connections in other countries as well, and the GOC is growing here in the US and Canada.
Current Romanian patriarch was vehemently opposed to blessed Father George Calciu, and even refused to have him buried within his old diocese until the previous patriarch stepped in. Doesn’t give you much confidence.
Gus nor do i. I spent six months there and outwardly ç fine but I detect a something not good. They were keen on ecumemist stuff
I just do not understand how people can consistently bash on one hand the Constantinople Ukrainian guys as schismatics and in the same time urge people to attend the Romanian Old Calendar guys, which are really schismatics (both in mentality and in ethos).
Anonimus- That’s quite simple. The Romanian old calendarists have canons and right belief on their side. The claim they are schismatic simply comes from the new calendar side without evidence, likewise they say we are schismatic. The Ukrocephalites have no apostolic succession and base their separation on phyletism and hatred of Russians. What canons do the Ukranian schismatics cite for their separation from their autonomous church? What decision of a pan-Orthodox synod did the UOC-MP violate? What heresy are they walling themselves off from based on canon 15 of the 1st-2bd synod?? The Romanian old calendarists even have saints preserved and incorruptible (and even recognized by ROCOR) even Brother Jose Munoz soon to be canonized a saint, during his final days in Greece he was part of an entourage of Romanian old calendarists and attended liturgy in the SiR monastery in Fili.
Gus Langis,
Can we simply declare who WE think is canonical without a Council or Synod of right-believing bishops? From whence does this authority originate? No local Church or jurisdiction holds Romanian Old Calendarists to be canonical. ROCOR was in communion with them, but they have since repented of this as a mistake and broke communion with them.
There are actually two Romanian Old Calendarist Synods, Slatioara and Tekuch. They are in schism with one another due to the debate over WHEN New Calendar churches lost grace. Which group are you referring to as canonical? One can also admire the original strugglers against authoritarianism, modernism and renovationism, the Belokrinitskaja Hierarchy (Romanian Old-Rite Church). But can we deem them canonical merely because we admire their fortitude and steadfast commitment to tradition? No.
Maximus that cuts both ways. Without a council we cannot say either way. As long as the church has a bishop with apostolic succession, right belief, and praxis that’s good enough. I never bought in the narrative that canonical churches are those that retain the pentarchial structure of Justinian’s time regardless of their attitude towards the actual canons and belief, in that case Rome is canonical as well.
Gus,
What does your Synod of bishops say? Do you trust their judgment? And what do ALL the other Synods say? That’s a good indicator of who is canonical. It’s not been an ultimate guarantee many times throughout our history but it’s a great starting point.
I consider my entire synod to be composed of heretics. Their signatures are all on the pseudo Crete council agreeing to faulty positions. But not only that I do not consider Meletios to have even been a bishop at all, as he was deposed by his own synod in Athens before becoming Patriarch, thus the entire Congress held in 1922 was presided over by a freemason layman. Even though I was GOA (I consider myself having left them after Crete, but all my family and relatives belong to it), I dont see why anyone should trust anything they say. But most workd orthodox synods agree that there is an ecclesial reality in any society that baptises in the name of the Trinity so to them ecclesiology is irrelevant
Gus, there are many faithfull people in the GOA and the GOA continues to be in communion with Athos and the Ephrem monasteries. Maybe you rigidity and judgemental posture has lead you into heresy.
Jk:
According to Elpidoforos in his homily given at st. Demetrios Cathedral in Astoria, there is no heretics in non-Orthodox Trinitarian believing Christian’s we are all brethren. According to the GOA there is also no such thing as apostolic succession. I Personally reject this as I only recognize Met. Onufry in Ukraine and the other guys my GOA synod of bishops accept I view as nothing more than a bunch of random guys in halloween costumes. As far as Athonite monks they are as fickle as the bishops of the EP like the Xenophontos brotherhood. But many Athonites are not in communion with the EP and are non-comemorationists. One of the biggest insults to my intelligience is claiming to be the “canonical” church when the EP is known for disregarding them or selectively “rediscovering” them when it suits their agenda. To be canonical implies following the canons and not applying them selectively like the Phanariotes do or usually disregarding them altogether. You can keep making excuses for them and continue to desensitize yourself towards cacodoxy by acclimating as they move the goal posts further away from Orthodoxy like I did for decades. Nut No more…
If what he says is true, Gus, St Photios the Great and St Mark Eugenikos must have been schismatics.
This not only is a slap in the face to St. Mark of Ephesus and all of our saints who have defended the Orthodox faith, but, it makes a mockery of those of us (myself included) who went through great pains to convert to Orthodoxy from Roman Catholicism…which I assure you are not as identical as we are lead to believe
In your defense, Menas, you converted to the Church. That means something. Bartholomew and his ilk are just flawed people in the Church. They can’t touch what called you or the travails you went through to get here. They’re just background noise. But I do understand. I get angry, too. I often think of what our Holy Martyrs went through to preserve the Church and these people think nothing of chipping away at it, tweaking it here and tweaking it there. But at the end of the day, this isn’t their Church. It’s Christ’s Church and He will preserve it, as is, with us in it. Let us be a good testimony before the Lord.
Gail, perhaps this will be the final word on this matter (when the time comes). In any event, very well said. If nothing else, it reminds those of us who were born in the Church what great sacrifices people like you and Menas had undertake to be received into the Church. Therefore, I thank you for your fighting spirit (and others like you).
Thank you, Gail. Very kind and true words! Thanks for reminding me
https://nftu.net/pope-francis-visit-phanar-joint-services-ecumenical-patriarch-francis-commemorated-services/
Here’s a link with video of Pope’s being commemorated at the Phanar. Anaxios!
I rejoice that the brethren are rightly outraged. However I do question the outrage somewhat because of the timing. It seems like the outrage is a mere pretext to advance arguments about the Ukraine disaster. Patriarch Bartholomew has been open and consistent in his ecumenism. Nothing new to see here. If we truly despise the man-hating, syncretist form of ecumenism, let’s be consistent and expose every canon-despising Patriarch and bishop.
“For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.”Matthew 7:2 ESV
We’ve been making the point for a few years now; before most of us became aware of his seemingly sudden interest in Ukraine at the urging of Poroshenko. We later learned that Ukraine had been on the table for some time and how and why the State Department got involved, which was later confirmed by Wikileaks. – Ukraine was never Bartholomew’s end game, however. He wants to go down in history as the Ecumenical Patriarch who healed the Great Schism of 1054 and I think Ukraine was appealing to him because he could then leverage the Unia. – It all started with that joint declaration of theirs in 2014. One must beware of men with lofty ideas. We forget that if God wanted something done, He could get it done without our help. Flailing around like this only gets in His way. What a joyous occasion it will be when our Catholic brothers and sisters truly become Orthodox the right way. None of this “diversity without absorption” Francis keeps talking about. – Thank you for the link. After all these years, it is still shocking.
Gail,
Here’s his bucket list in my IMO; he wants to be the Patriarch who:
Elevated the prestige of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Called the first Ecumenical Synod in 1000+ years.
Reopened Halki.
Humbled the Church of Russia.
Ended the Great Schism.
Yep. This pretty much covers it, my friend. It’s never good to want something too much in this world which I think is one of his greatest failings. When you can accept what you’re given, you’re rarely disappointed because you have no expectations and every now and then, when the wind is just right, you’re pleasantly surprised!
Private question. Not a post per se.
George…a question hopefully not related to the current dust up in the Ukraine.
For the past few months the website and forum of Monachos.net has been down. The link says the account has been suspended. There were lot of sound informative discussions on that forum. It seem very well run, quite sober minded, and it was very helpful to me over the years. Do you know what happened to it….why it was suspended/take down?
Well, the person who founded the site is a bishop now, so maybe he was too busy to maintain it and the hosting subscription expired or something.
If you need to look for something on there, you can always use the Wayback Machine to find it.
It seems as though Elder Ephraim of Arizona has reposed in the Lord. May his memory be eternal, and may all that he labored for in the U.S not be undone
Re Elderly Ephraim. Ο Θεός να συγχωρεί τη ψυχή του.
Yes let’s hope the monasteries remain firm
The Moscow Patriarchate is flourishing. The Ecumenical Patriarchate is not. Bartholomew’s response to this state of affairs is not to see what Moscow is doing right and emulate it. No. Bartholomew’s response is to attack Moscow, to invade it’s canonical territory, to hack lumps off it – and to proclaim himself ‘First in Orthodoxy’ and ‘First without Equals’. He is strutting about like a second-rate Agamemnon hurling insults at Achilles; or perhaps, like a modern-day Sun King, claiming: “L’Eglise? C’est moi!”
He should calm down and have a nice cup of tea and a biscuit to restore his blood sugar level.
Elder Ephraim has reposed; may his holy prayers be with the Church in the turbulent days to come.
Thank you, Antiochene Son. I notice all the monasteries and Orthodox Christian sites have mentioned something about his passing. Sadly, I could find nothing from Bartholomew or Elpi. Elder Ephraim left us an incredible legacy in this country. I cried when I heard of his passing. It is my hope (and belief) that he will be our intercessor as we go through the trials yet to come. Memory eternal, dear servant of God.
Amen. My priest served the trisagion prayers this morning, and I didn’t know until that moment,so it was a shock.
Yes Gail. If the Greek Church is going to recover from Bartholomew, they will need Geronda Ephraim’s prayers. If the Monasteries are attacked by Bart and Elpi, I am praying for one of two scenarios:
1. A solid traditional Greek Orthodox Bishop emerges to take the reins.
2. The Monasteries go under the omophorion of ROCOR.
As a former RC as well, it is my supposition that some form of genuine conversion could be possible for the Roman Catholic Church as a whole to cease it’s schism and errors. It is also my supposition that neither his Lord Pope Francis of Rome nor his Lord Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople are free of the error of “modernism” and “free-masonic” ideologies at large. Therefore, neither of them is yet able to recognize and pursue the truth of the faith with authenticity. This is a sorrow for all, and not without prayers for them…
It has been my experience that a great many people who are Roman Catholics and are seeking to do Christ’s will are led to an understanding that is strikingly close to what the Orthodox Church teaches. I became part of the Orthodox Church only because it was an authentic manifestation of what I recognized was driving me to be an authentic Roman Catholic. The more I read of the lives of the ninth-century Popes and Latin Fathers of the Church, the more I saw the Orthodox Church, and something distinctly removed from the mainstream Roman Catholic culture of the day, with it’s constrained asceticism, and constrained beauty, constrained authenticity, but still somehow retaining some sacramental grace. The more one reforms something the more it is reduced to be constrained. But yet God does not give up on helping us.
I could use the comparison of the “Ango-Catholicism” within the Anglican Churches since the time of the Oxford Movement circa 1840ish. Just as Anglo-Catholicism is a gateway to the Orthodox Church, so to is Roman Catholicism, in it’s “traditional” form. To return “to the sources”, to see the underlying foundation of the faith coming through in the Orthodox Church and that the Roman Catholic Churches history is inseparable from it.
The Great Roman Catholic saints of it’s first 1200 years mostly point more clearly NOT to the present day mainstream understanding of what today is called Roman Catholicism but to what today is called the (Eastern) Orthodox Church and still generally has the word Catholic in all its creeds and official terminological descriptions. For certain, the most devout , the most authentically traditional Roman Catholics make for proto-typical Orthodox. If only the right conditions are to be met, God will lead them, whether individually, or en masse. When, why, or how I know not. But God workest great wonders. To be obedient to God and not deny his truth is what is called for. To not deny the lie of the Papal Infallibility dogma and deny not deny the lie “living/changing/developing tradition” (against St Vincent of Lerins understanding) is the crux of the matter to set them free. To conform our will to Christ’s will saves us.
Or you could have this monstrosity
https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/vatican-gives-nod-to-abrahamic-family-house-that-equates-christianity-judaism-islam
So what’s happening with the Serb’s in America? It sounds like they are dissolving. Will they join the OCA?
“Holy Synod of Bishops which states: ‘Repeal all decisions of the Church Assembly-Sabor of the Serbian Orthodox Church in North and South….concerning the organization of the Serbian Orthodox Dioceses on that territory’”
http://byztex.blogspot.com/2019/12/serbians-reverse-decisions-of-american.html
Your guess is as good as mine.
That’s a bit of a reach. If you remember back in September or October, there was some statutes passed by the Serbs that caused a petition to be launched. There was a couple of ambiguous statements in there about territorial administration, but to go from that to dissolution into the OCA is… a bit of a reach.
OK, thanks.
Yeah… It has to do with internal governing constitutional and policy issues that have been controversial for them for quite some time now. Nothing more. And nothing that pertains to what gets discussed here.
Below please find an article from today by The Associated Press, in The National Herald.
Pope Abolishes “Pontifical Secret” in Clergy Sex Abuse Cases
By Associated Press
December 17, 2019
https://www.thenationalherald.com/274400/pope-abolishes-pontifical-secret-in-clergy-sex-abuse-cases/