Love this map. Particularly Italy as Plagiarists , after all the Italians needed the Greeks for religous ideas in the old pagan days. All your Roman Gods are the same as the Greek Gods with different names. Romans like Marcus Brutus were stoics like the stoics that came from Greece-Zeno the founder. Caius Cassius was an Epicurean from the Greek Philosopher Epicurus. The Romans first conquered Magna Greacia where a lot of Greeks lived in Southern Italy and then the Romans had play comedies. The the Romans conquered most of the Greek mainland in the 2nd Century and stole a lot of Greek art. The only time Greeks wanted to be Romans is one Constantine built New Rome where Byzantium was and then it was considered cool for Greeks to be known as Romans.
This skewed view of people beyond the happy homeland of the hellenic homogeneia (a racist term if there ever was one) reminds me of nothing so much as a map which appeared in the New Yorker magazine a few decades ago.
That map is titled something like ‘A New Yorker’s View of America’. The map shows a large and fairly detailed map of Manhattan Island with everything west of the Hudson River rather diminutive by comparison, and interrupted only by things like Chicago and San Francisco.
It’s good for us to be able to laugh at ourselves!
Voices notwithstanding, this particular fit of pique was generated by Melanie Sakoda’s attempt to discredit my assertion on the ‘Indiana’ list that Faith Skordinski’s membership on the Metropolitan Council was illegitimate.
And FS’s prosecution of Fr Robert Kondratick was illegitimate, as was her participation in the ‘Special Investigating Committee. FrRK’s case needs to be revisited and this whole shameful charade exposed for what it was and remains: a sinful miscarriage of justice. Everything I know and believe leads me to think that our OCA will never be healed of its wounds incurred these last ten years unless and until FrRK’s persecutors admit, confess, and repent their evil deeds and he is reinstated as a priest.
Anyway, now that I’ve been proved correct, how long do you suppose it will be before ‘Voices’ puts up a correction? Or is Drezhlo’s self-assumed infallibility to remain uninfluenced by the facts? I noticed that it’s not allowed to post comments on ‘Voices’. That’s a sure sign of being afraid of the truth.
I think dear and esteemed Dean Calvert slipped when he wrote “Romania…Vandals and bats”… Surely, he meant Vampires and bats. After all Spain is the land of the Vandals. In fact “Andalusia” is a later corruption of Vandalusia”, or land of the Vandals.
George–I suppose His Grace would answer this question as he is extremely knowledgeable about a large number of subjects. Nonetheless, since a couple of days have passed since your question, I thought I might steal his thunder and answer your question. In accordance to a well-sourced Wikipedia article, the short answer is “no” as the current line of inquiry seems to pint to the use of Al Andalusia to pre-Roman occupation, making the term centuries earlier than the appearance of the vandals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus#Etymology_of_Al-Andalus
That Wikipedia article is really not at all about the etymological relationship of “Vandal” to Andalusia. No. it is a very long, tedious even, apologetic for the Muslimi Caliphate and Muslim Spain. To indicate that “Al Andalus” referred to anything but Arabs, Muslims, and their achievements and glory in the land which the Jews called “Sephardia”, is what the article is about and that is its purpose. The disclaimer at the top of the article is a strong one and most important. Discussion of the etymology of “Al Andalus” is about eight or ten percent of the whole article. Even the support for a non-Vandal etymology is qualified by a few uses of “apparently” and “some evidence indicates that!”
A propaganda piece of the “first water.”
The Wikipedia article on “Vandals” states:
“It is generally believed that the Arabic term for Muslim Iberia Al Andalus, and its derivative Andalusia, may be derived from the Berber pronunciation of Vandal: “Wandal”. However, the theory has been disputed, and alternative etymologies for Andalusia have been proposed.
Yes, two scholars, one of them Arabic, disputed the ‘Wandalusia” idea: one in 1900 and one in 1982.
It makes a certain sense that the Berber pronunciation of vandal gave rise to Wandal, thus Wandalusia. After all, the Vandals passed through Iberia; they did not settle there. Their kingdom was centered in Carthage. I believe there is also a theory that the naming of Iberia as Andalusia is after the port from which the Vandals sailed to North Africa. What was truly intriguing for me was the fact that the article that is being looked at critically–because of its principal author’s pro-Islamic bias–postulated that the etymology may be traced back not to Islamic sources (nor to post-Roman occupation of Iberia or the Vandal periods) but to a period prior to any of them.
The comparison to the New Yorker’s “View of the World” is apropos. There is a lot of dry humor here, but I particularly liked the characterization of volcanic Iceland as “Hades” and the French Riviera as “overrated”.
This is delightful. I notice one problem, however — dark orange signifies “Greek lands, forever lent.” That is outrageous. The Turks are only temporary squatters.
In 717-718 the Bulgarian Kingdom saved Constantinople from a massive Arab attack. This action was so significant that many historians equate it to the Battle of Tours in halting Muslim expansion for centuries. So, in addition to the saying “beware of Greeks bearing gifts,” may be we should coin another memorable phrase to indicate their short memory and/or ingratitude.
Well not saying that there was not any great art of buildings in the medieval period. But notice some of the buildings most familiar to Easterners and Westerners were built at the end of antiquity for Constantinople like the Theodosian walls and the Hagia Sophia so the older civilization was able to do buildings on economies of scale that the medieval one wasn’t able to. Maybe, the Plague of the 6th century and cultural changes led to this.
Well as mention above the Greeks whether classical or Eastern Roman achievements were mainly in the ancient world, they peak earlier than those other countries on the map. In fact the Greeks are embarrassed that the biggest experts on ancient Greece or even Byzantium are sometimes Germans since if you wanted to go into those fields you have to learn German.
I don’t think Spain should be included in the Union of Stingy Workaholics. Now that the gold has dried up from South America they seem hard-pressed for cash. Though they still might be stingy.
I found this interesting about the roots of words and the Vandals presence in Spain and of course North Africa, What is interesting is the Vandals unlike the other Germanic Tribes were good at sea battles, In the late 5th century Constantinople tried to take Carthage back from Vandals but loss heavily. Justinian in the 6th Century because of what happen in the late 5th almost decide not to try to bring Carthage back from the Vandals.
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Love this map. Particularly Italy as Plagiarists , after all the Italians needed the Greeks for religous ideas in the old pagan days. All your Roman Gods are the same as the Greek Gods with different names. Romans like Marcus Brutus were stoics like the stoics that came from Greece-Zeno the founder. Caius Cassius was an Epicurean from the Greek Philosopher Epicurus. The Romans first conquered Magna Greacia where a lot of Greeks lived in Southern Italy and then the Romans had play comedies. The the Romans conquered most of the Greek mainland in the 2nd Century and stole a lot of Greek art. The only time Greeks wanted to be Romans is one Constantine built New Rome where Byzantium was and then it was considered cool for Greeks to be known as Romans.
This skewed view of people beyond the happy homeland of the hellenic homogeneia (a racist term if there ever was one) reminds me of nothing so much as a map which appeared in the New Yorker magazine a few decades ago.
That map is titled something like ‘A New Yorker’s View of America’. The map shows a large and fairly detailed map of Manhattan Island with everything west of the Hudson River rather diminutive by comparison, and interrupted only by things like Chicago and San Francisco.
It’s good for us to be able to laugh at ourselves!
Maybe St Myopeia will intercede for us….
Here’s the New Yorker cover Monk James referred to:
Click to enlarge it.
Boy, no wonder Stan threw a hissy fit at Monk James. I mean look at that cover and see the view from Russia, not to mention any Voices!
Voices notwithstanding, this particular fit of pique was generated by Melanie Sakoda’s attempt to discredit my assertion on the ‘Indiana’ list that Faith Skordinski’s membership on the Metropolitan Council was illegitimate.
And FS’s prosecution of Fr Robert Kondratick was illegitimate, as was her participation in the ‘Special Investigating Committee. FrRK’s case needs to be revisited and this whole shameful charade exposed for what it was and remains: a sinful miscarriage of justice. Everything I know and believe leads me to think that our OCA will never be healed of its wounds incurred these last ten years unless and until FrRK’s persecutors admit, confess, and repent their evil deeds and he is reinstated as a priest.
Anyway, now that I’ve been proved correct, how long do you suppose it will be before ‘Voices’ puts up a correction? Or is Drezhlo’s self-assumed infallibility to remain uninfluenced by the facts? I noticed that it’s not allowed to post comments on ‘Voices’. That’s a sure sign of being afraid of the truth.
Oh, thank you! I remember this picture.
OMG is that funny!!!
Like the New Yorkers view of America..but funnier.
I particularly like the area of Romania…Vandals and Bats!!! And Asia Minor (lent to Turkey)!!!
Wouldn’t be so funny if it weren’t absolutely true.
Best Regards,
Dean
I think dear and esteemed Dean Calvert slipped when he wrote “Romania…Vandals and bats”… Surely, he meant Vampires and bats. After all Spain is the land of the Vandals. In fact “Andalusia” is a later corruption of Vandalusia”, or land of the Vandals.
Yep! Good catch, Your Grace.
Ahem…That appellation was pasted over Romania and Northern Bulgaria on the map.
Your Grace, I thought “Andalusia” was a transliteration from the Arabic Al-Andalus. Or does “Andalus” in Arabic refer to the Vandals as well?
George–I suppose His Grace would answer this question as he is extremely knowledgeable about a large number of subjects. Nonetheless, since a couple of days have passed since your question, I thought I might steal his thunder and answer your question. In accordance to a well-sourced Wikipedia article, the short answer is “no” as the current line of inquiry seems to pint to the use of Al Andalusia to pre-Roman occupation, making the term centuries earlier than the appearance of the vandals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus#Etymology_of_Al-Andalus
That Wikipedia article is really not at all about the etymological relationship of “Vandal” to Andalusia. No. it is a very long, tedious even, apologetic for the Muslimi Caliphate and Muslim Spain. To indicate that “Al Andalus” referred to anything but Arabs, Muslims, and their achievements and glory in the land which the Jews called “Sephardia”, is what the article is about and that is its purpose. The disclaimer at the top of the article is a strong one and most important. Discussion of the etymology of “Al Andalus” is about eight or ten percent of the whole article. Even the support for a non-Vandal etymology is qualified by a few uses of “apparently” and “some evidence indicates that!”
A propaganda piece of the “first water.”
The Wikipedia article on “Vandals” states:
“It is generally believed that the Arabic term for Muslim Iberia Al Andalus, and its derivative Andalusia, may be derived from the Berber pronunciation of Vandal: “Wandal”. However, the theory has been disputed, and alternative etymologies for Andalusia have been proposed.
Yes, two scholars, one of them Arabic, disputed the ‘Wandalusia” idea: one in 1900 and one in 1982.
It makes a certain sense that the Berber pronunciation of vandal gave rise to Wandal, thus Wandalusia. After all, the Vandals passed through Iberia; they did not settle there. Their kingdom was centered in Carthage. I believe there is also a theory that the naming of Iberia as Andalusia is after the port from which the Vandals sailed to North Africa. What was truly intriguing for me was the fact that the article that is being looked at critically–because of its principal author’s pro-Islamic bias–postulated that the etymology may be traced back not to Islamic sources (nor to post-Roman occupation of Iberia or the Vandal periods) but to a period prior to any of them.
Well…that’s what it says…”Vandals”….
Personally I like the Byzantine term for the Romanians better…Ououvlachians.
And the Serbs – “pals”….this is just priceless.
Nice job George.
Best Regards,
dean
The comparison to the New Yorker’s “View of the World” is apropos. There is a lot of dry humor here, but I particularly liked the characterization of volcanic Iceland as “Hades” and the French Riviera as “overrated”.
This is delightful. I notice one problem, however — dark orange signifies “Greek lands, forever lent.” That is outrageous. The Turks are only temporary squatters.
Joseph A., that is (apologies to Joseph the First)
LOL!
Yes, Al Andalus was originally Al Vandalus.
I suppose a Persian might put “Where they say Sibboleth instesd of Shibboleth” over Hellas.
Bishop Tikhon is right the Vandals were in Spain and North Africa near Carthage.
Golden Fleece Sea where is Jason and the Argonauts.
LOL! Thanks for this injection of humor into my day.
In 717-718 the Bulgarian Kingdom saved Constantinople from a massive Arab attack. This action was so significant that many historians equate it to the Battle of Tours in halting Muslim expansion for centuries. So, in addition to the saying “beware of Greeks bearing gifts,” may be we should coin another memorable phrase to indicate their short memory and/or ingratitude.
“El Greco Land” for Spain. Priceless.
Well not saying that there was not any great art of buildings in the medieval period. But notice some of the buildings most familiar to Easterners and Westerners were built at the end of antiquity for Constantinople like the Theodosian walls and the Hagia Sophia so the older civilization was able to do buildings on economies of scale that the medieval one wasn’t able to. Maybe, the Plague of the 6th century and cultural changes led to this.
Well as mention above the Greeks whether classical or Eastern Roman achievements were mainly in the ancient world, they peak earlier than those other countries on the map. In fact the Greeks are embarrassed that the biggest experts on ancient Greece or even Byzantium are sometimes Germans since if you wanted to go into those fields you have to learn German.
I don’t think Spain should be included in the Union of Stingy Workaholics. Now that the gold has dried up from South America they seem hard-pressed for cash. Though they still might be stingy.
They’re stingy, but not miserly.
I think my dad has this map at his house.
Lol!
Peter,
I hope they are selling these…they’d make big money! Every Papou I know would want one!
Dean
I found this interesting about the roots of words and the Vandals presence in Spain and of course North Africa, What is interesting is the Vandals unlike the other Germanic Tribes were good at sea battles, In the late 5th century Constantinople tried to take Carthage back from Vandals but loss heavily. Justinian in the 6th Century because of what happen in the late 5th almost decide not to try to bring Carthage back from the Vandals.