Source: OCA | HT: Byzantine TX
NEW YORK, NY (OCA) – His Beatitude, Metropolitan Jonah, Primate of the Orthodox Church in America [OCA], and His Eminence, Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia [ROCOR], concelebrated the Divine Liturgy at Saint Nicholas Cathedral here on Tuesday, May 24, 2011, the Feast of Saints Cyril and Methodius.
The Liturgy was an historic one, in that it marked “the first joint service of the American Bishops and the Russian Orthodox Church after nearly 70 years of the liturgical period of absence of communication,” according to the web site of the Patriarchal Parishes in the USA. It represents the fruit of the diligent labors undertaken by the joint OCA-ROCOR Commission.
Also concelebrating were His Eminence, Archbishop Justinian of Naro-Fominsk, Administrator of the Patriarchal Parishes in the USA; His Grace, Bishop Tikhon of Philadelphia and Eastern Pennsylvania [OCA]; and His Grace, Bishop Jerome of Manhattan [ROCOR].
At the conclusion of the Divine Liturgy, Metropolitan Jonah presented relics of Saints Herman of Alaska and Alexis Toth to Metropolitan Hilarion, who in kind presented relics of Saint John Maximovich to Metropolitan Jonah. The Metropolitans also sent a message to His Holiness, Patriarch Aleksy of Moscow, on the occasion of his patronal feastday. The text of the message reads as follows.
“We thank the Lord, Who on this festal day has vouchsafed us to offer unto Him the Bloodless Sacrifice in the Patriarchal Cathedral of St. Nicholas of the Russian Orthodox Church in New York City!
“On this, the feast day of the holy Equals-of-the-Apostles, Sts. Cyril and Methodius, Enlighteners of the Slavs, having communed in the One Holy Spirit of the One Chalice of Christ, with sincere love we greet Your Holiness on the occasion of your Namesday.
“By God’s beneficent Providence you have been fated to serve as the Primate of the Russian Orthodox Church, of which the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is an inseparable part, and which is the Mother — and Sister — Church of the Orthodox Church in America.
“We are certain that the long-desired concelebration of the Hierarchs of the American Church and the Russian Church Abroad will be a glad tiding to Your Holiness, and to the innumerable Orthodox clergy and laity.”
Among the OCA clergy serving at the historic Divine Liturgy were Archpriests Joseph Lickwar and Samuel Kedala; Igumen Joseph [Hoffman]; Hieromonk Gerasim [Eliel]; Igumen Sergius [Bowyer], Abbot of Saint Tikhon’s Monastery; Protodeacon Joseph Matusiak; and Hierodeacon Philip [Majkrzak].
Ahhh… for the first time in a very long time, I feel like I have leaders again.
it is wonderful, isn’t it?
Chew on that, Stan Drezhlo!
Ha! 48 hours later and not a word from Stan…
Helga and others,
While I know some of you are angry about the way certain people have maligned + Jonah, there is no reason to resort to ad hominem attacks about an individual’s sexual identity. This sort of attack simply minimizes what you are saying and reduces the dialogue to un-Christian ranting. Let’s leave individual sexual identity issues where it belongs – in the confessional and the pastoral care of our clerics.
There is nothing objectively demeaning about referring to Mr. Drezhlo as what and who God made him. Therefore, I will continue to refer to him as such.
I could take your point for the first part as I *was* gloating a bit, but that has nothing to do with his sexual status: I could have said that to anyone who shares his views about Metropolitan Jonah and national/ethnic identity.
Helga,
By sarcastically referring to a woman – even one who has changed his gender – as “Stan” versus Barbara you are devolving to an ad hominem attack. This discussion is not so far as I can tell about sexual ethics or Church doctrine about sexuality or gender. Why resort to that in a public forum? Is this debate about Ms Drezlo’s or Mr Stokoe’s sexual identity or proclivity, or for that matter about your or my sins, or is it about the politics of the OCA? Why not stick to that?
Kevin, this dialogue between you and Helga raises several interesting points. Her point about Drezhlo is that he is still a man, just a castrated one. In his case, it was self-mutilation and this is not insignificant. One of the reasons that the great Church Father Origen is not canonized is because he mutilated himself, making himself “a eunuch for the kingdom of heaven’s sake.”
It just occurred to me that if Drezhlo was baptised, chrismated, and raised in the Orthodox Faith, did he have to undergo a “re-chrismation” for the sake of taking a feminine-given name?
If I may, Helga may be honoring God’s created handiwork (even if he does not) by referring to Drezhlo by his baptismal name. That’s not for nothing.
Her point about Drezhlo is that he is still a man, just a castrated one. In his case, it was self-mutilation and this is not insignificant.
George:
I hate to correct you again because for years I never had cause to, but now, to quote George, “you have gone off the rail” and then some. Where do you get this stuff? You said:
Your quote is “spin” because of your quote marks. It makes it sound like you are quoting an anathema. If you can correct me, I will grovel at your feet and join Jonahmakos in repentance. You say that Origen was not canonized because he castrated himself. That is foolish spinistory. Origen was not canonized because he was ananthemized. Why was he anathemized? Because of his preaching (speculating) about the preexistence of souls. Justinian also wanted to anatemize him because of his teaching about the the apakotastasis but the Council refused because Nyssa’s teaching was close to that and they did not want to anathemize Nyssa.
Origen was anathemized because of his belief in the pre-existence of souls and not because of his actions in the belief that a bishop needed no “balls”. Maybe it would be better if most had none. Then there might be true peace. But that is only a passing comment with no pun intended.
You lose credibility when you say things like this and eventually you do not help Jonah with the Jonahmakhosites.
Nick, Origen was not ordained a priest in the See of Alexandria because of what he did. He had to travel to Jerusalem to get this done. You are correct in the main about his doctrine of apokatastasis but his self-mutilation was clearly un- canonical.
BTW, the canons give a pass to men who are castrated against their will (like when they were children or captured as slaves).
George: The only extant source that Origen castrated himself is Eusebius. I am unaware of any primary sources which suggest that Demetrius refused to ordain him because of castration. In fact, after he was ordained, the renowned Fermilian took him under his wing as his guest. Origen was the go to guy whenever any heresy sprung up and was instrumental in many bishops returning to the fold. Over the last 1800 years, he is still the most quoted of the early Fathers by renowned theologians, both in the East and in the West.
If he did indeed castrate himself, it would have been a capital offense in the Roman Empire and I likely think he would not have therefore lived as long as he did traveling about the Empire, including Rome.
It took 300 years before the Fifth Council anathemized him and, in the main, it was under pressure by Justinian and as a result of the extremes that some of his followers took. Nowhere is it stated in the Fifth Council’s proceedings that it was a lack of “balls” on his part.
So you think mutilating yourself is a good thing?
George:
You said:
I said no such thing. You started this damn discussion between you and me when you claimed (as an expert in history, I presume) that Origen was not ordained because he mutulited himself. You also claimed (again as an expert in history, I presume) that the mutulitation was the, or one of the, reasons that he was never canonized.
When I proved you wrong on both accounts, including many others in several other posts, you respond, in one case, “good night Nick” and in this case ” so you think mutilating yourself is a good thing”.
I did not say it was a good thing or a bad thing. I corrected you on your imagined history which many on this site believe because they believe in you. At first I thought you did not know any better. That is why I was correcting you to make sure you did not mislead anyone. But with this inane response you show that you do not care about the truth. All you care about is your agenda: spin, twist, re-spin, re-twist, invent, re-invent, historicize via spinistoricize, etc.
How the hell do you dare to take my remark correcting your lack of knowledge of history about Origen into suggesting that I support castration or that, by implication, it is OK Orthodoxy. That is spin. That is sin. That is spin-sin. That is bullshit. That is an expose about who you are and your integrity.
Enough of your stupidity. I’m done with this site. Don’t post a response. I shall never read it.
All you other people out there. If you don’t see what he (George) is doing, all I can say is “God Bless You. He will forgive you”. “Prelest” cannot last forever.
Choui.
τὸ γὰρ μυστήριον ἤδη ἐνεργεῖται τῆς ἀνομίας: μόνον ὁ κατέχων ἄρτι ἕως ἐκ μέσου γένηται. καὶ τότε ἀποκαλυφθήσεται ὁ ἄνομος, ὃν ὁ κύριος [Ἰησοῦς] ἀνελεῖ τῷ πνεύματι τοῦ στόματος αὐτοῦ καὶ καταργήσει τῇ ἐπιφανείᾳ τῆς παρουσίας αὐτοῦ, οὗ ἐστιν ἡ παρουσία κατ’ ἐνέργειαν τοῦ Σατανᾶ ἐν πάσῃ δυνάμει καὶ σημείοις καὶ τέρασιν ψεύδους καὶ ἐν πάσῃ ἀπάτῃ ἀδικίας τοῖς ἀπολλυμένοις, ἀνθ’ ὧν τὴν ἀγάπην τῆς ἀληθείας οὐκ ἐδέξαντο εἰς τὸ σωθῆναι αὐτούς. καὶ διὰ τοῦτο πέμπει αὐτοῖς ὁ θεὸς ἐνέργειαν πλάνης εἰς τὸ πιστεῦσαι αὐτοὺς τῷ ψεύδει, ἵνα κριθῶσιν πάντες οἱ μὴ πιστεύσαντες τῇ ἀληθείᾳ ἀλλὰ εὐδοκήσαντες τῇ ἀδικίᾳ.
Heard more than enough, and got your number. Ciao, George.
Too bad, I’m gonna post one anyway: Origen wasn’t condemned simply for his philosophy about apokatastasis because Gregory of Nyssa also held it. Furthermore, Gregory was condemned by the 5th Ecumenical Council. However, Gregory was still glorified as a saint. I imagine that he would not have been had he done what Origen did.
BTW, why weren’t the Serbian bishops at the Episcopal Assembly for the United States? They couldn’t have gotten a pass to sit with their American brethren?
Mihali, mi afeseis ti porta na htipise to kolo sou os vgenies.
Γιώργο, υπάρχουν και άλλες πόρτες εκτός από τη δική σας. Προσέξτε μήπως εσείς ανακαλύψετε τον εαυτό σας έξω από το πιο σημαντικό. Υπάρχουν πολλοί τύποι ευγένειας, επίσης.
To me it is somewhat similar to a hypothetical problem I considered while watching CNN in the break room at work (it’s on 24/7). They were discussing ‘Chaz’ Bono’s appearing on ‘Dancing with the Stars’ and that Cher was extremely incensed by ‘Chaz”s treatment by certain people who thought that the show had some agenda for promoting transgender people, etc. The host said, basically, that he understood Cher’s anger because //her SON was being attcked…// (rolling eyes here). If it were me on that show and my principles didn’t allow me to view ‘Chaz’ as either a man or as Cher’s ‘son’, should I be required to talk about it as if I did believe that? That would seem to force me to say something against my conscience.
Requiring Helga to refer to Stan as //he// prefers, as Barbara-Marie (Varvara) (rolling eyes again) and as a woman is forcing her to accept your or some agenda’s views on morality and sexuality. At least that’s how it seems to me. Am I required to speak politically correctly just because I’m expected to by the majority, the popular culture, etc.? Can’t I speak the truth as I see it without molding my words to suit a group that I don’t agree with?
Uh, Kevin “sexual identity” what is that? I thought God made us male and female. Do we really need anything else and do we really need to play the gender identity sensivity games? Seems to me that if we do, we’ve already lost the anthropological battle. A man is a man — a woman is a woman no matter how certain confused and disoriented people mutilate themselves or what fantasy role playing games they enter into in the course of homoerotic sin.
One can caution against ad hominum attacks without all of the PC stuff you know.
Michael,
I do not think exposing or outing anyone’s sins on a public internet forum because we disagree with their ideas about politics in the Church is an appropriate thing for a Christian, or any compassionate human being to do. There have been multiple and repeated outings and derogation of people’s opinions and motives here, based on their actual or presumed sexual practices (is that better than identity?). I think that stinks and I’m tired of reading it on a “Christian” site. If you call that political correctness, then so be it.
I can understand that. However, I usually speak of that site’s author as “Stan” as well, and I don’t mean anything meanspirited by it. I don’t think Helga was trying to cause a stir by that. Her point was about Drezhlo’s love of the MP and disdain for the OCA — thus the gloating.
Jesse,
That’s a weak argument for un-Christian behavior.
You and I know people who struggle with same-sex attraction and thank God that is not a temptation you and I struggle with. Thank God as well that others do not know our (yours and my) sins and call them out because we may disagree about Church affairs.
THAT is MY point.
It’s hard for me to say that calling the author of that site “Stan” as opposed to “Barbara” or “Vara” is un-Christian behavior, or that it was meant as an jab against those who struggle with that temptation. I’m not meaning to give anyone carte blanche to mock people with temptations they don’t personally have.
Regardless of what we think of what Helga said: you point is taken. Thank you.
Kevin, one reason I don’t struggle with same-sex attraction is because a) I was never molested as a child and 2) I was raised in a society in which even thinking about same-sex attraction was considered taboo.
I hate to admit this, but that African adage that Hillary Clinton borrowed, “it takes a village,” contains enormous wisdom.
Things are different now. The homosexualization of our society makes it normative for straights to make jokes about homosexuality and to openly talk about it in mixed company.
I just came across a book at the bookstore the other day. Its title was Any Bitch Can Fake It. So, I picked it up. It’s about recipes, not sex believe it or not. It’s not the content that bothered me but the title. Look how low we’ve fallen that a woman can write a book with that title and perfectly respectable middle-class housewives would even consider buying it.
Would this have been possible ten years ago? I would never have considered buying this for my wife when we first married. I certainly could never expect to find such a book in any woman’s kitchen before 1980. But here we are.
A little off-topic but culture matters.
Kevin, you are correct to a point, but if sinful sexual practices are a foundation for a revolt against the Church, what is one to do? Certainly, sinking to an ad hominum level is wrong, but who was ‘outed’? The trans-gender person (whose name I forget, forgive), has apparently made it quite public and the situation with Mr. Stokoe was not exactly a secret either. The is a vast difference between allowing pastoral work to continue in relative privacy and acquiesing in obstinate sin (sexual or otherwise). [Yes, sexual practices is better than sexual identity, but still tends to a soften the sinfulness of those practies too much, IMAO]
Personally, I really don’t care if folks know my sins. I’m sure I’m not really fooling anyone anyway. Too often privacy becomes an excuse to simply ignore and presist in one’s sins. If my sins are damaging the community, it is the duty of my brothers and sisters to call me out, to call me to repentance. Be critical of the personal condemnation (ad hominum) for sure, but not of the call to repentance. True humanity, true personhood demands that we face our sins and allow the grace of God, in community, to overcome them.
It is a fair question to ask Mr. Stokoe don’t you think. “Do you believe homoerotic sexual practices are spiritually/morally equivalent to hetrosexual practices and ought to be thought of as such?” AND whether or not that belief contributes to his attack on Met. Jonah? The teaching of the Church has always been that unrepentant homosexuals will not see salvation. I don’t want that for Mr. Stokoe, I don’t think you do either.
There is an axiom in economics: “Bad money drives out good” meaning that counterfeit currency debases the whole money supply and damages the whole economy. That is what occurs with the counterfeit sexuality that is homosexuality–the entire so-called LBGT ‘community’ is counterfeit. Sin does that. It presents what is counterfeit as real and entices us to accept the unreal. The Church is no place to trade in the counterfeit. That is fundamental to Orthodox Christianity. A fundmental we seem to be rapidly loosing sight of in the midst of our hedonistic, egalitarian, nihilist culture.
In one sense, I don’t really care what Mark Stokoe’s motives are. He is a vicious bully and needs to be stopped. He is propogating a culture of the scapegoat with himself as the high-priest of that pagan practice. Until the whole mindset is stopped there can not be any substantive discussions on the issues of proper authority within the Church. If he and the culture he is propogating are allowed to continue, the Church will have to isolate the OCA to protect the rest of us. (I am more and more thankful that his tactics did not work in the AOC despite our real issues).
BTW: If Met Jonah is an insulin dependent diabetic folks should realize many such people have great difficulty controlling their weight. To manage the disease well requires constant attention to what one eats, when one eats it, the weather, exercise and stress levels as well as one’s medications. The constant fluctuations in blood sugar levels even when the disease is well managed can also make a person irritable, stubborn and prone to mood-swings. The normal fasts in the Church become quite problematic for a diabetic. With his schedule and reponsibilities, managing the disease without someone constantly helping him, reminding him and directing him it would be near impossible.
Not to dig too deeply into Metropolitan Jonah’s personal medical information, but I recall that Dn. Brian Patrick Mitchell mentioned here that Met. Jonah is diabetic. And yes, I can affirm what you’ve written here about life with diabetes. I don’t have it myself, but have seen first hand how hard it can be to control, and how hard a diabetic person can be to deal with when their blood sugar gets out of whack. It would explain a lot of the complaints about his personality, but would not excuse their lack of compassion.
I totally agree here. Metropolitan Jonah has made some mistakes that do need to be fixed, but I’m almost afraid to criticize anything he does – not because I feel threatened by Metropolitan Jonah, but by what I know other people are willing to do to him if they feel like they have enough lay support. It is essential to get Stokoe off the Metropolitan Council immediately, not just for himself, but as an example to anyone else who would dare try this.
YES! What Helga said. So difficult. Still… we need the people who can do something to act since all we can do is speak out.
I’ll come out of the closet and admit it as well: I’m a non-insulin dependant diabetic and it’s a difficult disease to live with.
In my case, it happened because of lack of exercize and over-eating. I’ve had to lose some weight (difficult to do) but also moderate what I eat and when I eat.
I used to be able to go on real fasts when I was younger (i.e. no caloric intake at all for a day or so) but I can’t now because my blood sugar will crater and I can pass out.
+Jonah is not diabetic nor non-insulin dependent diabetic. Do you want to deal with actual facts or are you content to play with conjecture and fantasy in the hopes that it becomes fact because you wrote it and, ‘you see it in print – on the internet – more people are writing about it – it must be a fact.’ His doctor knows, he knows – you have no business saying such things. Shame on all who entered into this.
Hey, chill out. Perhaps I misremembered what Dcn. Brian said; perhaps he was mistaken. It’s not a personal or moral flaw to be diabetic, it’s a treatable health condition common in people who are Metropolitan Jonah’s age. The only reason the possibility came up in relation to Metropolitan Jonah was because it would have made for an innocent explanation for a lot of things that his enemies have been criticizing him for.
Remember, we’re the ones looking out for +Jonah, we’re not trying to tear him down. We’re trying to help him, by asking questions and poking holes in the slanders as best we can. So please understand this has all been in good faith.
Anon, he may not be a diabetic yet but he’s my age and I can tell you that the life of a road-warrior is not conducive to avoiding diabetes. I thank God for the fact that he is our Metropolitan daily but as a human being (and a health professional) I can’t help but worry about him.
I look forward to Journalist Stokoe’s report, should he deign to provide one. Since the metropolitan’s participation in this significant photo op stands as a counterpoint to the “gravely troubled,” “rogue” hierarch of his imagination, I expect him to ignore the event or to mention it in passing sans his usual line-by-line commentary. It isn’t news he can use.
Must everything be such an opportunity to stoke such fires as these?
Is one instance “everything” to you?
It should be Patriarch KIRILL, right?
Um, YES!
This is the deal: Hilarion supports + Jonah.
Yes.
Sorry: This has nothing to do with Jonah. ROCOR and OCA have been working on this since ROCOR reunited with the MP. In fact, Hilarion (ROCOR) sent his vicar bishop to participate in Jonah’s enthronment.
Sorry, Nick. It has everything to do with Jonah. The solid unity of Moscow and ROCOR behind Jonah is a clear statement to the EP that a united front of the OCA, ROCOR and MP here in the USA is a force not to be taken lightly. Jonah will survive as First Hierarch of the OCA because he has the backing of both the MP and ROCOR. Yes, this event was planned for sometime, but it would not have taken place if the MP didn’t want it to take place. They did and for one reason, to send a clear signal inside the OCA and to the greater Orthodox world that no attempt to unseat Jonah will be taken lightly by Moscow. I think the OCA Synod finally got the memo. You will see a change in their attitude going forward. It was quite providential that the Episcopal Assembly stared one day after the Reunification Liturgy in New York. God works in mysterious ways.
Iindeed.
Amos, I agree. I think +Bishop Hilarion is making a very clear statement in serving a liturgy with +Met. JONAH of who the MP supports and recognizes as the head of the OCA. It may also have been another way of showing those who want to get rid of + Met. JONAH what the cost may be if +Met. JONAH is forced out of office without a canonical reason to do it. This would mean bringing charges before a spiritual court. Personally, I don’t think the bishops who want him out will have the courage to do it because if the spiritual court doesn’t find + Met. JONAH guilty as charged, they’ll be the ones that are out. The MP may no longer recognize the OCA, and I think the others would quickly follow suit, as they all support +Met. JONAH as well. It is very telling that +Bishop DEMITRIOS of the GOA refused to meet with those who support getting rid of +Met. JONAH.
Is getting rid of +Met. JONAH worth what it is going to cost? Personally, I think it will cost us the OCA itself, because if all the other churches refuse to recognize us, then it is over.
I hope it will bring a change of attitude at the Holy Synod, but I am not holding my breath. Whether Mark has something on them that they are afraid of being exposed or are tempted by power, I’m not sure, but I question whether it may change attitudes. I am certainly praying that it does, however. God can work miracles if we will let Him.
Katherine,
Our (ROCOR’s) first hierarch, Vladyka HILARION, is also a Metropolitan bishop, like Vladyka JONAH (whom I respect and admire tremendously). Thanks be to God for this glorious concelebration! May it lead us all to greater unity.
Agreed!
I pray for this as well!
Amen – may it please God that the OCA and ROCOR come together under the current administration of Metropolitans Hilarion and Jonah. Many years to them both.
Absolutely. And may the liberals who hate +Jonah depart for ECUSA. I’m sure they’d carve out an Eastern Rite Vicariate for them. All the smells and bells, fabulous brocades, and intricate
dancerituals. Plus all the politeness of elite WASP culture which treasures acquiescence to the dominant culture.I have foresworn participation in this particular venue, but I received an unsolicited email earlier today from a friend who is a long-time member of ROCOR and has regular contact with ROCOR hierarchs and other leaders.
He writes:
“[Today I visited Monomakhos and OCATruth and] saw that both were claiming that the recent concelebration of Mets Jonah and Hilarion was an indication that ROCOR was supporting Jonah. That’s nonsense, if only for one very simply fact: this concelebration was scheduled months before Santa Fe.
Another point is that several of our representatives serving on the OCA-ROCOR commission argued that the concelebration should be delayed until the OCA ‘had its house in order’ (exact wording) precisely so as not to give the impression that we were taking sides with either party.”
Said friend gave me permission to post this. Make of it what you will. Over and out.
There is no way this could have happened with +Herman. +Jonah has provided the continued leadership for this dialogue to continue. He could have shut it down. He could have insisted that the concelebration be at our cathedral. He could have done a number of other things. What he has done is developed a relationship with ROCOR and MP which has been the foundation for this event.
You can keep trying to sideline +Jonah, but you will be like the Synod and the MC, you will see that you can’t get rid of him because he is what we need.
Isn’t it also interesting that this took place within the confines of the Diocese of NY/NJ for the OCA? If nothing else, I’d say that the bishop, +Michael, is a stand-up guy.
Nick, you may have forgotten, but the OCA and Moscow have been united for about 40 years. Yet +Kirill and +Alexei II went out of their way to not concelebrate with either of +Jonah’s predecessors.
Yeah, it’s significant. Also, the fact that it wasn’t at the ROCOR cathedral but the MP cathedral says loads. No wonder two of the Appalled Four are livid.
Knee-jerk reaction here: “They’re ‘livid’?” Heh.
Christ is Risen!
George,
Nonsense.
This is a quick set of examples, many more can be given of Pat. Alexy II and Pat. Kyrill serving with both Met. Theodosius and Met Herman:
Pat Alexy II serves w/ Met. Theodosius
http://ocaphoto.oca.org/PhotoViewer.asp?EID=617
Pat Teoctist of Romania serves w/ Met. Theodosius, Abp.s Nathanael &Seraphim for the consecration of Romanian Patriarchal Abp for America, Nicholae.
http://ocaphoto.oca.org/PhotoViewer.asp?EID=497
Met (future Pat. Kyrill addresses the All American Council as Met. Theodosius retires and Met. Herman elected.
http://ocaphoto.oca.org/PhotoViewer.asp?EID=977
Met Herman enthroned. Concelebrating, (note, two primates) His Grace, Bishop Savas, Chancellor of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Patriarchate of Constantinople; His Grace, Bishop Georgios, Patriarchate of Alexandria; His Grace, Bishop Demetri of Jableh, Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, Patriarchate of Antioch; His Eminence, Archbishop Damaskinos of Jaffa, Patriarchate of Jerusalem; His Eminence, Metropolitan Filaret of Minsk and His Grace, Bishop Mercurius of Zaraisk, Patriarchate of Moscow; His Eminence, Archbishop Nicolae, Romanian Orthodox Church in America and Canada,Patriarchate of Romania; His Beatitude, Metropolitan Sawa of Warsaw and All Poland and His Eminence, Archbishop Abel of Lublin, Orthodox Church of Poland; His Grace, Bishop Simeon, Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia; His Eminence, Metropolitan Daniel of Tokyo, Autonomous Orthodox Church of Japan; and His Eminence, Archbishop Avgustin of Lviv and Galicia, Autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church – Moscow Patriarchate. Other Churches were represented by clergy. Also present were two Cardinals.
http://www.oca.org/news/312
Met. Herman meets with Pat Alexy, Met (future Pat) Kyrill, serves with Met. Kyrill, Met. Juvenaly.
http://ocaphoto.oca.org/PhotoViewer.asp?EID=651
Met Herman serves w/ Pat Alexy II and Pat Pavle of Serbia.
http://ocaphoto.oca.org/PhotoViewer.asp?EID=740
Met Herman presides in place of Pat. Alexy II for the 100th anniversary of St. Nicholas Cathedral in New york, concelebrates with Met (future Pat.) Kyrill.
http://ocaphoto.oca.org/PhotoViewer.asp?EID=389
It is true that concelebration between ROCOR and the OCA has been a gradual process since the former’s reconciliation with Moscow. The most recent developments on that front indeed do credit to Met Jonah, who seems to have exceptionally good relationship with Met. Illarion of ROCOR. Fr Kishkovsky has also had a public role in OCA-ROCOR reconciliation. I am very happy and grateful to God to see this con-celebration. And I deny flat out that any bishop of our Church is angry over what is reported in the article.
BTW, Bp. Michael of New York is a great guy. But he does not need to bless the Met to go to St. Nicholas Cathedral in NYC, which is not part of the diocese of NY-NJ. It is, as you pointed out, MP, (though as a metochion it has a technical relationship to the OCA Met.) and as an MP place, it does speak “loads” – the first con-celebrated Liturgy was arranged on “neutral territory”, so to speak.
Christ is Risen!
Dear George,
Where on earth did you get: “+Kirill and +Alexei II went out of their way to not concelebrate with either of +Jonah’s predecessors.”
A very quick search turns up:
Pat Alexy II serves w/ Met. Theodosius
http://ocaphoto.oca.org/PhotoViewer.asp?EID=617
Pat Teoctist of Romania serves w/ Met. Theodosius, Abp.s Nathanael &Seraphim for the consecration of Romanian Patriarchal Abp for America, Nicholae.
http://ocaphoto.oca.org/PhotoViewer.asp?EID=497
Met (future Pat. Kyrill addresses the All American Council as Met. Theodosius retires and Met. Herman elected.
http://ocaphoto.oca.org/PhotoViewer.asp?EID=977
Met Herman enthroned. Concelebrating, (note, two primates) His Grace, Bishop Savas, Chancellor of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Patriarchate of Constantinople; His Grace, Bishop Georgios, Patriarchate of Alexandria; His Grace, Bishop Demetri of Jableh, Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, Patriarchate of Antioch; His Eminence, Archbishop Damaskinos of Jaffa, Patriarchate of Jerusalem; His Eminence, Metropolitan Filaret of Minsk and His Grace, Bishop Mercurius of Zaraisk, Patriarchate of Moscow; His Eminence, Archbishop Nicolae, Romanian Orthodox Church in America and Canada,Patriarchate of Romania; His Beatitude, Metropolitan Sawa of Warsaw and All Poland and His Eminence, Archbishop Abel of Lublin, Orthodox Church of Poland; His Grace, Bishop Simeon, Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia; His Eminence, Metropolitan Daniel of Tokyo, Autonomous Orthodox Church of Japan; and His Eminence, Archbishop Avgustin of Lviv and Galicia, Autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church – Moscow Patriarchate. Other Churches were represented by clergy. Also present were two Cardinals.
http://www.oca.org/news/312
Met. Herman meets with Pat Alexy, Met (future Pat) Kyrill, serves with Met. Kyrill, Met. Juvenaly.
http://ocaphoto.oca.org/PhotoViewer.asp?EID=651
Met Herman serves w/ Pat Alexy II and Pat Pavle of Serbia.
http://ocaphoto.oca.org/PhotoViewer.asp?EID=740
Met Herman presides in place of Pat. Alexy II for the 100th anniversary of St. Nicholas Cathedral in New york, concelebrates with Met (future Pat.) Kyrill.
http://ocaphoto.oca.org/PhotoViewer.asp?EID=389
Pat Alexy and the then Met. Kyrill served with both Met Theodosius and Met Herman, and did so regularly.
It is true that ROCOR / OCA con-celebration has been a gradual process since the former’s reconciliation with Moscow. This process has been publicly underway for some time, and has included Fr Leonid Kishkovsky, (w/ the blessing of Met. Jonah). I think Met. Jonah does get credit, he seems to have a very good relationship with Met. Hilarion of ROCOR. It is not surprising to me at all that the first con-celebrated Liturgy took place on “neutral territory” so to speak, the Metochion of the MP in the US. I am very happy to see this con-celebration, and I am grateful to God.
I deny flat out that any bishop of our Church is angry over what is reported in this article.
Also, you are correct when you state that Bp. Michael Dahulich is a great guy, but he did not need to bless Met Jonah to go to St. Nicholas Cathedral, as that Cathedral is not in the diocese of New York/ New Jersey, (neither, for that matter, is the Chancery, residence, and chapel at Syosset).
Fr Yousuf, I remember making the same argument a couple of years ago to a rabid OCA-hater on the AOI. He also pointed out to me chapter and verse the various times during the latter years of both primates how Moscow would send bishops over and that the OCA’s primates were literally sidelined. This was Moscow’s way of sending an important message about what they felt about them.
Nick–As usual, you cut through the wishful smoke and mirrors of the +Jonah fans.
I hate (maybe love is a better choice since I do love you guys) to burst your fairyland bubbles, but if it makes you feel good go on living in fairyland.
Amos, you obviously don’t know how acrimonious relations have been between the OCA and ROCOR over the years, even to the point of some ROCORs suggesting that Fr. Alexander of Thrice Blessed Memory was heretical.
The reconciliation has been in the works ever since the ROCOR/MP reconciliation. In fact, Hilarion sent his vicar to participate in Jonah’s elevation. Shortly thereafter a joint commission started discussions on full reconciliation almost immediately after that. In fact, clergy have concelebrated during the recent periods. This is the first time that the two “First Hierarchs” have. This has been a priority of the MP since ROCOR came back into the fold. If Mickey Mouse were the OCA Metropolitan this would have happened and happened now and happened on the date it happened.
It is a Russo-Slavic thing my friends, not a you-ain’t-gonna’-mess-with-our-boy-Jonah thing. Go ahead a live out your fantacies boys and girls of Jonahmakhos land. It happened on the feast of the Slavic saints. It happened in the MP Cathedral. It happened on the eve of the Episcopal Assembly. It happened while the former Secretary put-his -foot-in-his-mouth now newly consecrated Metropolitan of some ficticious see of the EP was in Moscow trying to explain why the EP calls a meeting of the Greek faction in the world to the exclusion of the Slavic faction to discuss the fantasy-ne’er-to-be Great Council. It happened while the other pillar of Slavism, the Serbian bishops were in Blegrade and not in Chicago carving up the EP’s “diaspora” by creating new diocese in Europe and South America that never existed before.
In short, it happened to show Slavic unity against the EP. It had nothing to do with Jonah. If the President of the WCC sent Jonah a birthday card, you guys would get giddy on this site and celebrate that the entire Christian world now supports Jonah. Hey guys, it has been proven that the sun does not revolve around the earth and every space trip by NASA has failed to prove that Jonah is holding up the earth. Maybe the Ayn Rand Foundation will allow that great book to be retitled “Jonah Shrugged”.
‘Nuff said about this silliness.
Thanks Carl for your kind words.
Hristos Voskrese.
P.S. I forgot. Tikhon was there. I submit that they were showing solidarity with the synod by having Tikhon there. Jonah was an after thought. They didn’t want to hurt his feelings. I guess fantasy can have many convolutions.
P.S. again. How many of you on Jonahmakhos are Slavs like me? I’d like your comments since you have a Slavic perspective. Anyone else commenting is like me intruding into Greek or Chinese intrigue.
im a slav. four generations in Metropolia/OCA
The published (whether by MP, ROCOR, or OCA) photos of the event don’t convey anything like that.
Nikos: The OCA press release said they were both there, Jonah and Tikhon. The picture shows they were both there. Jonah after all is the First Hierach so he and Hilaron are in the middle. What is your point?
Nick K:
In the press release and the photos, both +Hilarion and +Jonah are the “centers of attention.” +Tikhon is just mentioned along with other concelebrants, almost like a footnote.
Say goodnite, Nick.
Honestly?
Nikos:
“Honestly?” No. I thought my sarcasm was clear. Of course Hilarion and Jonah are the “centers” of attention. As “First Hierarchs” they were the two primary concelebrants. That is one of the very few privileges of primacy.
So, what was your point?
My point is that my joke about them supporting the Synod is just as ludicrous as George’s suggestion that Jonah being there is meant to tell the Synod that ROCOR supports Jonah.
I guess this was so utterly important to George and the message it sent to his imagination that he forgot to note that the MP website makes no mention of this non-event. However, it has an article and pictures of Hilarion (ROCOR) celebrating Liturgy with his own a few days before commemorating the ROCOR/MP reconciliation. What message does the absence of the Jonah event send?
Slavic unity against the EP. Precisely. Unity vs. a patriarch who can’t leave the Phanar without worrying about being murdered, whose theological school has been shuttered by the state, where a Catholic bishop is stabbed dozens of times and then beheaded, and where, as in many other Moslem-majority countries, the little flock of Christians (many of them Orthodox) must increasingly fear for their lives. Real brotherly behavior, that. Real pathetic.
So when the going gets tough the EP and the Greek Orthodox should just leave there homes, and THEIR country that they have been in for over 3,000 years? I hope this never happens to you. I would argue that rather than leaving the EP and the other Greek Orthodox and other Christian people of Turkey should continue to do what they are doing – Speaking truth to power with Love – The Love of Christ and demanding that their rights be recognized and supported.
According to your logic the Palestinians should leave as well and stop struggling for a homeland. The Kurds should leave also and stop fighting for a homeland. Its the EP’s home. Its the home of many Greek, Armerian and Assyrian Christians. What right do we have to tell them to leave their home?
You can disagree with the EP’s position on theological matters, as I do in his interpretation of Canon 28, but its still his home. It is STILL a HOLY ORTHODOX SEE just like Moscow is. Did we tell the Moscow Patriarch to leave during the 70 years of Communist Oppression? No!
The EP stays where he is and shall always stay there. Period. Its his home, his flocks’ home, and no matter what I or others may think or say, the Light of the Gospel still shines forth from the Phanar.
To leave and extinguish that light is what is truly pathetic.
Peter
What are you doing to grow the EP right where it is? I’m not talking about the Diaspora. I’m talking about Constantinople and anywhere within the 100 mile radius.
My point was not about growth, but was about people saying why the EP stays in Istanbul, Turkey. Maybe you view it in terms of growth, I do not. Moscow stayed in Russia during the communist era, and Moscow had no growth until the communists fell.
Islamic and hostle secular government eventually fall, like they are in the process of doing in Egypt and Syria, and Alexnadria and Antioch can benefit their people when the change comes, and if none comes then they still benefit them because they still carry the light of Christ in a dark muslim world.
It is better to stay and preach the Gospel, than cut and run and leave people with no hope.
Peter
Peter, you’re missing the point. With Russia, even during the communist era, there were still Christian people, even if some of them secretly practiced their faith. They were not expressly driven out of Russia, just driven underground; in other words, when it was safe to come out, they came out still being in Russia.
With Turkey, after 1453, the numbers of Christians steadily declined, as people were forced to convert, or flee. Even at the beginning of the 20th century, Christians were driven en masse. Statistics don’t lie; there are markedly fewer Christians in 2011 than in 1611 in what is now Turkey.
And yes, they carry the light of Christ, but who is being drawn to the light in the dark muslim world? Is the light of Christ growing brighter, or dimmer?
There are more Christians, Orthodox and Oriental Christians, in Turkey than you think. The example you give of Moscow can and does also fit well with Christians living in the muslim world as crypto-Christians. However, if the dark muslim world is your criteria what about Alexandria? Jerusalem? Antioch? Should these Orthodox communities leave? Shall these Christians leave their homes? Is their light any dimmer or brighter?
Also, what about America? Last time I checked not too many of us Christians here in America either according to recent polls, because like you stated statistics don’t lie (ahem!). Just because you call yourself a Christian does not mean you are one. Recall Rev. Ted Haggart, Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Baker, etc (and that’s just the Evangelicals. You want to see our Orthodox illiminaries shine go over to Prokov.org and take a look, and don’t forget to wear your sunglasses). Shall we American Orthodox leave as well? Can you leave your home Lola? Can you just abandon people to darkness and dispare?
You see if we keep leaving eventually there is nowhere to go? So the EP Stays, Moscow Stays, Jerusalem Stays, Antioch stays, Alexandria stays (which by the way there is still a Greek Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox population there), and we here in America we stay as well, even when our country is becoming more and more neo-pagan by the day.
So when we Orthodox Christians dwindle in size here in America shall we and our hierarchical leaders leave as well? If so, where do you propose we go? Where can we live and the prevailing culture is not against us?
Also, you know there are no Gay Marriages in Turkey? Homosexuality is not tolerated nor accepted. A 1983 Turkish law makes abortion legal in Turkey in all circumstances but only within 10 weeks of pregnancy. After 10 weeks, abortion is illegal unless the mother’s life is at risk, which in means Turkey in effect has banned abortion. No Euthenasia in Turkey as well. The extended nuclear family among all Turkish citizens, Christian and Muslim, is very well intact. Now, how does America, Europe and Canada compare, our great Christian countries? It looks like we are pretty dim here ourselves.
Have a nice night Lola, and God bless, and remember its better to light even one candle than to to curse the darkness. The EP and the rest, and even us, are that one candle.
Peter
Peter, as for myself, I’ve always believed the EP should stay where he is and try to evangelize. In my one trip to Turkey, I was amazed at the number of people who were interested in the history of Byzantium. I think many of these people they are white for the harvest.
That’s the point I was trying to make. Peter, you make very valid points. I’m just asking . . . who’s going to do the harvest?
The EP which is actually happening as we speak. The divine liturgy was recently celebtrated in Cappadocia since the Great Catastrophy. The EP is and will do the hasrvesting. and the Archons of the EP and the GOA and the Church of Greece will help and have helped and will continue to help.
Peter
Don’t be silly. Metropolitan Jonah’s birthday is not until October.
However, it’ll be interesting to see who gives His Beatitude namesday greetings on June 15/28.
Thanks for that!
Yes, his patron saint is St. Jonah, Metropolitan of Moscow.
If he’d been forced on another leave of absence after Chicago, I was going to send him a cake for his namesday, with a hacksaw in it. 🙂
Just want to mention that Metropolitan Jonah’s name day is today on the New Calendar! Eis polla eti Despota!
Indeed. AXIOS!!!
Helga, if the president of the WCC sent +Jonah a birthday card I’d hope that HB would tear it up or at the very least misplace it somewhere. The WCC/NCC are both completely worthless organizations, whose only purpose at present is to waste the time of Orthodox participants. 🙂
Oh, I would hope Metropolitan Jonah would have the same reaction Homer Simpson did to one of Bart’s drawings: “AAAUGH! BURN IT! SEND IT TO HELL!” 🙂
Carl,
And once again you make this about sides. Beloved Archbishop Job took great pains to make sure we were not to take sides, as we are to adhere to but one side Christ.
Just the same we are not ‘fans’ of Metropolitan Jonah, thank God our OCA is not Facebook.
As I said above, this is about Jonah in as much as there is no way that this could have happened under the leadership of Herman and that he encouraged the OCA synod and staff to get together with ROCOR and having himself established a good relationship with ROCOR and MP.
I would say that even the officers and staff at Syosset think this is about Jonah in that they were totally absent from the event on Tuesday. Neither Fr Eric Tosi, nor Fr Leonid Kishkovsky or anyone else from Syosset seemed to have been present. This is the most open sign that it is about Jonah because if it were not about him you can bet they would have all been front-and-center.
Martin
Sorry to say, Tosi and Kishkovsky are so irrelevant to what the OCA is about, past and present, that their presence or absence means absolutely nothing inside and outside the OCA. Kiskovsky is a player too long on the scene trying to make his mark on the history of the OCA, however, like too many, he stayed too long on the stage. As for Tosi, he is a legend in his own mind.
Jonah is still the First Hierarch of the OCA. Attempts to bring him down by Benjamin proved unsuccessful. He was outflanked by the realities of Church life in real-time.
The only Syosset person there was Protodeacon Joseph Matusiak. So there was a single Central Administration employee there, the “project manager”, whatever that means.
Fr. Gerasim and a hierodeacon were also there, who are both Metropolitan Jonah’s associates dating back to California.
Nick K. & Carl K., “good cop, bad cop”?
Nikos: No cop. Just unbiased truth.
In 44 Nick Katich says:
Well, in your own mind, at least, especially the “unbiased” part
Laus Deo!
More Orthodox unity, please. Very encouraging.
See, told y’all Moscow was behind +Jonah!
Like!
In response to Madam, Да что вы говорите!
A. Arganda,
Mea speaka only Anglaise! (sic)!!
Don’t think +Mark is out of the DOS yet. News are that he has served at St. Sava in Plano, TX this morning and is going to travel in the DOS over the next couple of weeks to campaign for his election as Bishop of the DOS.
Furthermore, it has been leaked that he is using DOS funds for his travels and is going to stay at Metropolitan +Jonah’s condo in Dallas for the time being.
Since +Mark’s name seems to be the only one on the list of possibilities for the DOS it seems obvious that +Nikon only removed him as Administrator of the DOS for tactical purposes.
Spread the word to ensure people understand what he is all about when he shows up at YOUR church!!!
http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=27389&sid=a666cd359482b1307a6c44462e3d83d4
http://home.comcast.net/~concernedorthodox/fargo.html
http://home.comcast.net/~concernedorthodox/FrHenkeResponsetoBp.Mark.pdf
http://home.comcast.net/~concernedorthodox/BpMARKletter.pdf
I don’t know what initially touched off that dispute in Fort Wayne, but Mr. Henke and those who followed him all became schismatics from the Orthodox faith. Bishop Mark’s letter to them read to me as justified under the circumstances.
What has become of Fr. David Moretti?
I know nothing of Bishop Mark’s character. Fr. Reardon vouches for his good nature and that is good enough for me. However, having said that, Bishop Mark comes with too much baggage and too much of an overall stain on his name to be of any real use. This may be unfortunate if Bishop Mark is trully a good man and a stand up guy. I simply do not know.
But what I do know is that perception is a large part of being useful in the Church and as far as that goes Bishop Mark is too damaged to be trusted by people. The one thing that makes me lean against Bishop Mark being a stand up guy is his dealings with Mark Stoke. MS clearly used him and Bishop Mark allowed himself to be used. This was a mistake by Bishop Mark where he recently came off of his controversies with the Antiochian Archdioces. Bishop Mark played with a “Twist” (i.e. Mark Stoke) and “Twists” have no alligences except to themselves. So Bishop Mark got burned and burned bad.
Pray that Bishop Mark can still be used for the Glory of God and the Good of the Church. We all make mistakes, and we all need and should have redemption. Pray for Bishop Mark, Pray for Fr. Fester, Pray for us all.
Petert
Amen, Peter. I believe that if His Grace truly repents then he has a future. I think a six month leave of absence in a monastery is what is called for.
Maybe Bishop Mark would do well to just follow Metropolitan Jonah around for a while.
дзякуй за цікавую інфармацыю