This just in from our friends at www.orthochristian.com. Apparently, false-bishop Sergei Dumenko prayed at the altar with a Catholic priest during a church “consecration”.
You see, this is why you can’t bring schismatics into the Church. They either don’t know how to be Orthodox or they don’t want to be Orthodox. In Dumenko’s case, it’s probably both. Orthochristian has photos on their site. For some strange reason, the schismatics took them down from their website. (Hmm, I wonder why?)
The schismatic “Orthodox Church of Ukraine” (OCU), the creation of Patriarch Bartholomew and the thuggish former President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko, caused yet another scandal when images of a recent church consecration, celebrated by the false primate appeared on the group’s official website, revealing that a Catholic priest was not only present at the service, but prayed in the altar with the “Orthodox” clergy.
His presence in the altar is, of course, a flagrant violation of the holy canons of the Orthodox Church.
The OCU is made up of two groups that wandered in schism for 30 years but which were anti-canonically combined into one new group last December and granted a fraudulant tomos of autocephaly by Constantinople in January. The group is now recognized by the Patriarchate of Constantinople but is desperately fighting to gain the recognition of the other Local Churches, making its ecumenistic activities with Catholics and other schismatics all the more problematic.
And the incident did not fail to catch the attention of hierarchs of other Local Churches. Having seen a report about the incident on the Greek outlet Romfea, His Eminence Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus of the Greek Orthodox Church noted their disregard for the norms of holy Orthodoxy and called for the OCU not to be recognized by the Greek Church: “These people are not only unholy, they are heretical and lacking the fear of God. Therefore, to ask the autocephalous Orthodox Churches to recognize them is at least outrageous.”
Having caused a scandal and drawn negative attention to itself, the photos showing the Catholic priest were removed from the OCU website.
Ha! What a hoot! In one breath they defend it by saying he was in the altar “in the spirit of love.” And in the next breath, they remove him from the photo.
You can’t make this stuff up!
If there was any doubt in my mind that this new outfit is graceless, then it’s been erased.
Was there ever any doubt??
I feel I owe you an apology you got me searching on the Pentagram in the Fanar article George, you opened my eyes . I just did not wish to see how bad and compromised Bartholomew is .
I just could not believe Greeks could do this to us. My godparents are Greeks from Constantinople no less, I loved them dearly.
I fond Jay Dayer’s talks and articles helpful George.
https://jaysanalysis.com/2018/09/10/patriarch-of-constantinople-ukrainian-schism-ecumenism-freemasonry-jay-dyer/
Stefan,
“I just could not believe Greeks could do this to us. “
The leading man who did all this is more Turk than Greek:
He has a Turkish passport, he has served in the Turkish army as an officer, and nowadays he blesses the Turkish troops, not the Greek ones.
Excuse me Stefan, why do you say “Greeks”?
Bartholomew played the “Greek” card when it suits him Ioannis.
He rallied Greek Nationals with his sweet song that us Russians are spreading black propaganda against him. Are all the guys in the vid Turks?
Sadly, Bartholomew is not the only”Turk” in Greek Orthodox vestment
https://orthochristian.com/124822.html
If this is becoming more widely known (as it already should have been) and Archbishop Ieronimos still concelebrates with +Bartholomew and recognizes Epiphani then the Church of Greece is a lost cause (at least the portion that goes along with this). Not only do they not care about what coming into union with these schismatics mean, but, they will also be worsening the schism as Russia has already said it will cease commemoration of Greece.
Notice that Bartholomew hasn’t said anything about how this is not correct, this is because this is the precise future that he has for the schismatics and the others who blindly follow him into apostasy with the Romans
This needs to be addressed now by the leaders of the Church, if not, then Bartholomew and the State Department will just harass Church after Church until they give in.
It baffles me why on earth these hierarchs are afraid of Bartholomew, he has a tiny flock and is clearly compromised, what is saying no to him going to do?
They need to call his bluff. The EP has no army, no emperor backing him. The EP’s authority is literally a meme.
For that matter, why did the head of the autocephalous Cypriot Church stop trying to make peace just because Bart told him to? Bart can’t do anything to him. He should have told Bart to either buzz off or call a council to depose him.
As I posted on Orthochristian, I’ve become dubious on the entire concept of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, of primacy. It’s a relic from a bygone time. Show me a primacy in the Rome/Cple model that is not connected with being the capital of the Roman Empire. It has no theological purpose at all.
Maybe the primates of the churches should be absolutely coequal and the primacy (insofar as it is even needed) should rotate among them. True conciliarity for “the church of the councils”.
It is true that “The EP… is literally a meme” because canonically there is no such thing as an “Ecumenical Patriarch.” There is, however, a Patriarch whose throne, however eviscerated and disgraced in the eyes of the Churches, remains on the soil that was once Constantinople. And the canons, as outdated and unworkable though they now are, have still not been changed and do indeed still grant that throne certain prerogatives, albeit not the prerogatives claimed by its current occupant.
Whatever else may or may not be going on in the minds of the heirarchs who are struggling with the wild claims and foolishness of Bartholomew and his synod, the vast majority of them have a far greater respect for the canons than he.
I suspect that this respect may, to a large degree, explain why they are so hesitant to act, though action is clearly required.
The OCA’s Metropolitan Tikhon, at his recent lecture on “Primacy and Service”, pointed out how Primacy in the Church is properly understood as an obedience. As he related in his lecture, his own position as Primate of the OCA, is properly understood as an obedience to the whole Church, and specifically to the charge given to the OCA to be an autocephalous Church, both at the good pleasure of, and also as defined by, the Moscow Patriarchate.
For some of the Local Churches, it could be said the autocephaly of the OCA does not exist, and does not exist even according to Church canons. Yet, in obedience to the charge given from Moscow of being an autocephalous church, the OCA commemorates all the Local Churches it has been given charge to commemorate, and in this way is obedient, not only to the charge of autocephaly, but also to the whole Church.
Likewise, the Patriarch of Constantinople, has a unique obedience to the inherited tradition of primacy, of the protothronos of the Orthodox Church. While it has been argued that “times have changed”, that the Church canons regarding the protothronos of the Church are no longer applicable to the current situation, that we must be “relevant to our present times”, nonetheless these objections, which may all be valid, do not obliterate the obedience of the Patriarch of Constantinople to the received tradition of primacy. In order for that obedience to change, it must be done in a proper and orderly way that not only respects but is also obedient to the tradition of the whole Church regarding it’s protothronos.
Joseph, you have an exceptional (and correct) view of “servant-leadership”. I cannot disagree with you. However your analysis is based on two faulty premises: 1) that the canonical situation is extant (i.e. an actual Roman Empire is in existence which mandates special privileges for its archpastor) and 2) that the present EP is acting out of “humility”.
I beg you sir, we are seeing anything but the fruits of humility in his recent actions. (Out of a spirit of charity I will overlook his earlier contretemps in Ligonier, Estonia, the Northern Lands, and the subtle threats to other autocephalous churches).
Joseph long ago was wafted up to heaven in hot air. Jesuitical to be sure. Sorry to be so blunt.
All things being equal, this is largely a faithful and an accurate analysis of an ideal Orthodox Christian ecclesiology.
But all things are not equal.
Just as ;’old’ Rome lost its primacy among the churches, ‘new’ Rome stepping up to fill the void, Constantinople may also lose its primacy.
The first Rome developed false doctrines, and then asserted previously unconceded authority to force its will on the other churches, which rightly rejected it. Now Constantinople is following the same sort of trajectory, and the second Rome will fall just as certainly as did the first. Does no one learn from history anymore?
The fall of ‘new’ Rome will happen rather soon, as these things go — modern communications being as efficient as they are — if it continues to behave more like an overlord of The Church than as its servant.
Well said, Monk James, very well said.
Indeed!
“… it must be done in a proper and orderly way that not only respects but is also obedient to the tradition of the whole Church regarding it’s protothronos.”
I happen to agree with this. Otherwise, we would face disorder and anarchy.
Nevertheless, the time has come for it to be done in a proper and orderly way. How much more division are we willing to allow this man to cause before he is checked by his brethren?
Exactly Brian!
Bart and his lawless misrule reminds me of no one more than the fool in the Whitehouse. Something going around? They both need to be put down, figuratively of course, as the mad dogs they are.
Clearly Claes, you’ve taken leave of your senses.
Hurts, don’t it George? It will be years before the cultists of either can free their minds not without much suffering.
Claes, what “hurts” specifically? All the screaming is coming from the Left. In less than three years, POTUS has accomplished more than several of his predecessors combined.
Speaking for myself, I’m as happy as a clam (at least in the secular sphere).
Quite aside from his accomplishments, which are supposedly more than several of his predecessors, the man is unfit to be the president. He is amoral (not immoral), he brings inexperienced (daughter and son in law) and obnoxious (how else to describe Steven Miller except as a dangerous antisocial person) people into his closest circle. He has cheated hard working Americans out of millions of dollars. Do you know why he always sits forward on his seat? Because he’s on guard and paranoid. Check out the psychiatric definition of narcissist. One needs to have 5 of the 9 qualifiers to be diagnosed. He has 8 of the 9. He too is antisocial and totally lacking in empathy. That he is a dangerous man has nothing to do with policy (although the Kurds might not agree). Check out his vocabulary. Nothing is ok, normal, good. Everything is perfect, great, the best, etc., etc. Those of us who have worked in the mental health field for many years clearly and early on recognized this man as unfit and dangerous. And, by the way, this is written by a rather conservative person who did not support Hilary for president. She and Donald Trump easily provided the American voting public with the worst choice for president in modern history.
I can name several accomplishments. So can you. That’s why you and other globalists fear him. Is he amoral? OK, so what? What politician is not? Even Jimmy Carter ran on preserving the “ethnic purity” of white neighborhoods. Abe Lincoln threw Congressmen in prison and closed hundreds of newspapers, destroying their printing presses. Woodrow Wilson revived the KKK. I could go on.
Trump (who was never my first or second choice for the GOP nomination) has done more for the American working class than any previous president since perhaps Andrew Jackson. (I could put Calvin Coolidge into this mix because his 1924 moratorium on immigration raised wages.)
I must take exception with your assertion that he “is too antisocial and totally lacking in empathy”. Good Lord, man! have you seen his rallies? Does this look like some person who doesn’t like people? Even when he goes overseas and meets foreign leaders he’s totally handsy. I won’t forget that time that that 11 year old boy mowed the White House lawn, Trump was standing right beside him like a doting grandfather (which he is by the way).
I’m sorry, but as Scott Adams of Dilbert fame says, you and I are watching two different movies.
I would not say that “times have changed” in most cases, because that is a terribly slippery slope.
But it remains true that this concept of primacy of one Rome or another is of a historical nature, not ontology. Yes there is obedience in the church, a bishop to his metropolitan, a metropolitan to his synod and patriarch, and all the churches to one another.
But I maintain that the idea of an overarching primacy of one bishop over the whole church, whether old or new Rome, or any other, is not necessary and certainly is not founded on any theological basis.
What we say to the Latins, let us say to the EP. Where was the primacy in the 2nd century?
If someone must sit at the head of the table, let it rotate among the primates. That’s what I think.
Unfortunately Bartholomew is not just about his personal flock, it’s an entire institution that is much bigger than the man in terms of its reach.
Pardon me for the analogy but it’s like in Godfather III, when young hotheaded Vincent Corleone wants to take out an annoying mobster named Joey Zasa. Zasa is a coldhearted bully, but the experienced godfather, Michael Corleone, keeps restraining his nephew from tackling Zaza, saying “He’s just a muscle, he’s an enforcer. You have to find who is behind him.” Vincent ultimately loses his patience and arranges to do a successful hit on Zaza. That simply makes life more difficult for the family.
Bartholomew is feared not because of the man, but because of the far reaching globalist institution behind him. If for any reason that institution dropped him like a hot potato, not a lot of people would care about what Bartholomew thought or did. Bartholomew, for that matter, would probably not behave the way he does in that situation either. His arrogance is rooted in the confidence he has in his sponsor.
I’m afraid at the end of the day it comes to who holds the purse strings, and who holds ability to damage one’s reputation and remove one from power. That is ultimately what is moving the behavior here, sad as it is to admit. There are definitely the “rally round the flag” types in the clergy, and those who are fine with being told by someone else what to believe, but at the end of the day you follow the money.
That is absolutely the case. I just wonder what would happen if someone in the position to do so would call his bluff. What could the EP’s sponsors actually do? Does the CIA have dirt on every Orthodox bishop?
The titular head of the Orthodox Church is literally a dhimmi. To the Turkish government, literally so, and further to the entire NATO/CIA globo-homo gayplex. And the rest of the church treats him as God’s Word, or at least tries not to make waves. Very sad.
Very interesting insights there.
George – S. Yr analogy spot on as i am often mystified by his seeming power but as u say. It’s a scandal. If I want a Pope which do not of course, I, we, know where to go and as a human being I go for Francis!! ?. But until the churches stand up to him, as the emperor in the story, he will have clothes and power. Behind the empty words and dead byzantine flummery, is a devious man expanding his business and power. There is NOTHING Christian about this disgusting personage et al. And while on Subject, he keen on autocephaly ( his style!!) for all and sundry BUT NEVER GREEK ORIGIN CHURCH IN USA. that he controls by divide and rule and his satrap Elpidophoros. WHEN WILL GREEK AMERICANS STOP GROVELLING?? U tell me! When their last church clossed or as near as mega church style as u get? And as for the byzantine titles, and they ALL GUILTY, NOT just him!! Is it not about time to ditch it all? Who they following, Byzantium or CHRIST. Don’t look too closely ‘cos the truth is painful if one is an Orthodox Christian. I am tired, bloody tired, of the emmolient words and squarring the circles and looking away, that goes on as long as greekfest goes well, and judging by the exodus, so are lay people.
Rather Bart is like unto Donald Trump whom the Republican Party needs to enact its thoroughgoing rape of the republic and globe, in a flurry of chaos the likes unseen in American politics but more befitting a banana republic. Having shrunk demographically as has the Greek Orthodox flock (because horseshit isn’t palatable to modern tastes) both Republican operatives and Greek Orthodox hierarchs resort to dirty tricks and wholesale lawlessness relying on the passive conventionality of the rest of us who are not prepared to deal with bad faith actors, neither in national politics nor ecclesial.
Continued support for the nefarious Trump and Bart, and the institutions they head, is sheer moral cowardice.
The trouble Claes with your analogy, is that President Trump is duly elected and is abiding by all Constitutional norms. Indeed, he is doing everything in his power to get the States and the Congress to take back their own Constitutional powers.
Let me explain: first, he is telling the Congress flat out that if they want the United States to engage in military adventures, they have the duty, the right and the obligation to declare war. The Constitution reserves to them and they alone to declare war. It’s in Article I. Second, he is forcing them to act in a legal manner if they desire his impeachment, like they did with Andrew Johnson, Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton. We Americans should stand for that and should not behave like the Church of Greece which kinda, semi, sorta, Mickey Mouse-like, quasi-recognized the illegitimate sect in Ukraine.
The Democrats under Pelosi are doing everything in their power to remove the President without having to take any responsibility. That’s complete and total chicken-sh!t. Vote on it. Stand up and be counted and take the consequences. Otherwise, let’s just go to an absolute monarchy.
George I do not like trump but u totally right. They only have a yr to wait to put it to the american people.. they should as you say, Make their case!! And see in November 2020.
I’m not going to follow you out into the weeds with your bizarre ratiocination projecting unconstitutionality onto Congress. Whereas I agree the only Congress has the right to declare war and has abjured it for decades (both parties) the Senate in their loyalism to the Imperial Prasidency (their guy) has utterly forfeited its oversight. Now Congress is finally stirring into action because of the Emperor’s open flouting of Constitutional norms and laws of the Union, but it doesn’t rate with his cultists.
Similarly to Congress’ sole power to impeach in order to uphold the Constitution, the Heads of Local Churches have the sole duty to gather to impeach the mad wolf in their midst. They alone can bring him to heel but like US Congress they don’t have the role of enforcing law, which is the Executive’s prerogative. Absent a sitting Orthodox Sovereign, no one commands the army or police to force Mr. Bart our of office for his abuse of power.
Claes, what “norms” has he “flouted”? All we get from the Left are assertions and allegations, which are usually shouted at a hysterical pitch. ORANGE MAN BAD! is the summa of their argumentation.
Perhaps you “don’t want to follow me into the weeds” because you have no rational counter-argument? What law did he break? I could say “what law did he break that his predecessors did not break?”
As for the EP, that’s a different issue. Clearly he went into another sister church’s territory and ravaged it. Of this there is no doubt.
One fake cleric concelebrating with another fake cleric. The only tragedy is that some recognize them both.
Holy smoke, it is getting bad!
( article beginning with ” Another chapter.. ” ) http://byztex.blogspot.com/
also same site: http://byztex.blogspot.com/2019/10/greeks-remember-ocu-moscow-will-not.html
ROCOR: https://eadiocese.org/news_191016_1
Another act in the drama: https://eadiocese.org/news_191016_1
Just came across that over on ByzTex
If Elpidophoros accepts these violent gangsters in GOARCH, we’ll know where his priorities lie.
St Maltrona Cathedral is a beautiful Church which primarily ministers to the Russian diaspora in the Miami/Fort Lauderdale area. It is sad to watch this happen but it appears that many of the parishioners are staying with this rebel priest.
Two days before the CP’s visit to Mt. Athos, the U.S Consul General, Gregory Pfleger, has arrived on the Holy Mountain. Unbelievable! The corruption never ends!
https://orthochristian.com/124810.html
It is a shame that the US Consul General appointed to serve in Thessaloniki isn’t a woman.
A few yrs ago they did not know Mount Athos exists and in few yrs time will forget it ever did.
Brian, maybe they had such a thing in mind!
That’s efficient organization.
Joseph,
“as Primate of the OCA, is properly understood as an obedience to the whole Church,”
…
“Likewise, the Patriarch of Constantinople, has a unique obedience to the inherited tradition of primacy, of the protothronos of the Orthodox Church. “
.
So, according to you, a Primate is obedient to the whole Church,
but the Ecumenical Patriarch is not obedient to the whole Church
but rather to the tradition! !!!
and that’s because he is protothronos. (Elpidophoros would love that!).
Where exactly does all this come from, could you please send a link?
.
BTW “tradition” is very delicate thing, like e.g. the title Pan-agio-tatos (All-Holy-Most) is a kind of “tradition” started by very zealous person who wanted to thank the Patriarch.
.
“…nonetheless these objections, which may all be valid, do not obliterate the obedience of the Patriarch of Constantinople to the received tradition of primacy…”
Well, now, this is really a refined form of a very special kid of obedience of Bartholomew as opposed to other Primates. The other Primates must be obedient to the whole Church which is the sum of Clergy AND Laity!
But (as you say) Bartholomew must be obedient to the “received tradition of primacy”. Indeed, he has applied this wording in his speeches. So, he alone need not be obedient to the other Bishops!? Now, if that isn’t Roman Catholic! That explains why he does not want an Ecumenical Synod where the other Bishop can criticise him.
.
Finally, Joseph, think about the factor “time”.
Read Canon 28 (4th Ec.S.) and the interpretation by St.Nicodeme.
All the special functions of the Bishop of Constantinople were given to him ONLY BECAUSE that city was THEN the capital, reigning (basileuousa, Participle, Present Tense!). This was purely a practical-political arrangement.
There was nothing sacramental or dogmatic about this practical arrangement, and let us not forget, that EVEN the Church of Jerusalem was ignored in this arrangement: Jerusalem was the first Church after the day of the Pentecost, and her first Bishop was none less than Jacob, the brother of the Lord. You do know of course the Saturday evening vespers tone 8, “Hail Holy Sion, Mother of Churches, the adobe of God…”
St.Nicodeme explains that the Cpole bishop could liaise/assist the visiting bishops who wanted to visit the head of state and ask for certain assistance.
Joseph, that city has no more the Head of State (he has moved to Ankara), and Turkey has VERY VERY FEW Orthodox Christians.
This explains exactly why e.g. the MP is now de-facto functioning just like EP many centuries ago. Where in the world do you find ONE Canon saying that this special function of Cpole will be valid until the end of the world?
.
Finally, Bartholomew’s position is untenable, Joseph, because too few in the Church support it. No bishop has the latitude to interpret (and act upon) the canons in a way that is rejected by the other Churches.
Gail,
The autocephaly of the OCA was, and still is, rejected by other Churches. Was the Moscow Patriarchate wrong to grant this when other Local Churches expressly denounced it? The canonicity of the OCA’s autocephaly continues to be debatable even almost fifty years later.
The main thing is, sometimes bishops need to act and make decisions, and they can’t wait around for an Ecumenical Council. If everyone waited for a Council to do things, then nothing would ever get done. That would render the Church ineffectual.
Most everyone would probably agree that autocephaly granted by a single Church’s Holy Synod is not ideal. Even the Ecumenical Patriarchate agrees that this practice is not ideal. Yet, real world circumstances have often necessitated, or provided for, the EP Holy Synod to grant autocephaly by themselves. Similarly, the OCA’s was granted solely by the MP Holy Synod, and with disregard to the other Local Churches. Are all these autocephalies inherently flawed then? Well, that’s debatable. It still remains for the whole Church to agree on this topic in an Ecumenical Council.
Joseph, the difference is that 100% of the other autocephalous churches recognize the OCA as a canonical church body with a canonical hierarchy. This is not the case with the OCU.
There is nothing inherently wrong with autocephaly. The problems we’re experiencing now are unique to Ukraine. Bartholomew granted autocephaly to self-consecrated charlatans in another bishop’s territory!
Yes, the OCU is currently unique in that regard.
Gail , I’ll highlight that!
“There is nothing inherently wrong with autocephaly. The problems we’re experiencing now are unique to Ukraine. Bartholomew granted autocephaly to self-consecrated charlatans in another bishop’s territory!”
Gail as usual u put it so well .
Gail why are the other Churches still rejecting OCA autocephaly? I DO NOT UNDERSTAND AT ALL
Nikos, for the OCA’s autocephalous status to be recognized across the board, all of the other canonical Churches represented in the United States would have to fall under the OCA because they reside in the OCA’s territory. It’s not like the other Churches don’t recognize the OCA as a canonical Church, though. They do.
This isn’t the insurmountable problem it presents itself to be. I suspect a lot of it has been worked out on paper and the rest could be resolved within the context of a Council. Proper ties to the various mother Church’s could be maintained under the auspices of the OCA or some similar entity which would include/represent all the canonical Churches here in the States.
It is my firm belief that the Ecumenical Patriarchate is going to have its wings clipped. Batholomew knows this so he is working as fast as he can to do as much as he can before it happens. It is my sincere hope the OCA remains tough and rejects his overtures. If they do that, they’ll be fine (maybe even better than fine).
Albanian Orthodox Diocese of America
American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Bulgarian Eastern Orthodox Diocese of the USA, Canada and Australia
Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Romanian Orthodox Archdiocese in America and Canada
Russian Orthodox Church in the USA
Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia
Serbian Orthodox Church in the USA and Canada
Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA
Forgive me if this is not an inclusive list.
Gail thanks for that.
It was what Saint Martyr Patriarch Tikhon was working towards.
The OCA churches I have worshipped in, in NY have been full, warm, Orthodox and relating to America and warmed my heart. What does for rest is not greekfest etc per se. All good fun as dancing, delicious food etc, as long as not main focus., nor even use of other language along with english. BUT THE DISCONECT at ground level when the bishops, the boss , are located elsewhere with ‘else where ‘ interests that alienate the young….. and old. As I recall you Americans had this problem with an english head office and taxation!! ?
Mr. Lipper, your recollection of the circumstances of the granting of the OCA’s Tomos is exceedingly faulty. The delegates of the Metropolia went to Istanbul to seek autocephaly there from the hand of the much-vaunted Athenagoras, and were told by His All-Holiness to seek it from their own Mother Church, that is the Moscow Patriarchate. That went off without a hitch — perhaps the Phanariots expected it wouldn’t? Then the Phanar cried foul when the OCA came into being in the way the very Ecumenical Patriarch indicated. Were the OCA delegates supposed to do something further? The text of the Tomos indicates no such thing. What real basis does any Local Church have to deny its validity, other than the specious claim that Moscow doesn’t have the authority, especially since Athenagoras himself said only Moscow could grant that Tomos.
Problematizing OCA Autocephaly only serves the purposes of foreign churches who wish to continue colonizing North America; the most vulnerable and needy being the very Archbishopric of Istanbul.
Well said, Claes.
Ditto.
Claes u answer my question. If Phanar going to claim infallible status they ‘gonna have to line up their stories ‘ And yes it’s money and power and nothing else.
But OCA does itself no favours by acting as if it’s not really autocephalous. Imposter Syndrome??!
No more GROVELLING to the Turkish satrap.. I can tell u how the phanariotes were hated here in the Balkans, even by other Greeks
Claes, my intention is not to attack or problematize the OCA’s autocephaly, but rather to point out that it was granted only by a single Holy Synod (Russia) and also without the express approval of any of the Local Churches, especially those who in 1970 had already established jurisdiction in America.
So, the OCA’s autocephaly is still a matter of contention, now almost fifty years later. Of course the main objector of the OCA’s autocephaly was, and still continues to be, the Ecumenical Patriarch. This is despite the fact, as you point out, that the “Metropolia” was refused canonical normalization from the EP in 1966, and instead was told to seek this from Moscow. It’s apparent the EP didn’t expect Moscow to grant the OCA autocephaly, because Patriarch Athenagoras protested against this action in a letter to Moscow’s Patriarch Pimen in 1970:
“in reference to the irregularities which you claim exist between the relations of the Russian communities and the Russian Church, and among those communities themselves, there is no reason at all, and no need whatsoever, to have the neutralization of such a situation pursued with another, even greater anomaly, which seriously shakes the governing system of the entire Orthodox Church — especially since there exist other forms of administrative action that the Sister Holy Russian Church could turn to. As for her alleged right, as well as that of any other Autocephalous Orthodox Church, to grant the status of autocephaly to another Church — such a right does not correspond either to canonical requirements or to existing practices within the Church.”
https://orthodoxhistory.org/2018/09/21/1970-letter-from-ecumenical-patriarch-athenagoras-on-autocephaly/
However the main issue here from the viewpoint of Patriarch Athenogoras is not some extraneous canonical issue, but rather that Moscow was purposefully sidestepping and avoiding the authority and coordinating role of the protothronos of the Church. Well, why should Moscow have bothered coordinating with the EP anyways? Indeed, by unilaterally granting autocephaly without consultation or coordination, Moscow was making the argument that the protothronos of the Church was unnecessary and irrelevant.
The problem with sidestepping the traditional authority and coordinating role of the protothronos is that chaos and confusion then emerges as Local Churches, like kids, become senseless and stubborn. I believe we are witnessing that today. Thus, there is undoubtedly a need for primacy in the Church, just as there is a need for fatherhood in families. Primacy is in fact part of Orthodox tradition. It is a rebellious and novel idea to suggest otherwise.
Joseph yes need for primacy but amongst equals and that primacy is not sui generis of Constantinople BUT LOANED,BY THE OTHER CHURCHES AND CAN BE TAKEN BACK. Nothing dogmatic about it. Indeed it could be argued to have passed to Moscow after 1453. But the basis of the Church is the priest under his bishop at the eucharistic table..During the 1920s and 1930s in Russia, with most bishops in prison or dead and Sergius isolated outside of Moscow, this was the only unit that existed for the shrinking still open churches. Yes we need a central point, but it should be where the modern reality is and NEVER IS DOGMATIC BUT PRACTICAL. I believe the Term is ‘ taking the lead ‘ as i heard so often at medical meeting in Uk.
By his Fantasy and bullying and use of politics bartholomaios may have opened a can of words that will not go well for him. And if there develops a schism in greek church at this crisis time for Greece, he will be responsible.
Anybody looking at the history of the schismatic groups must be appalled. We have for first time in Orthodoxy bishops and clergy whose validly from ordination is totally and clearly in doubt. Does anybody here get it? The impications for sacraments is frightening.
Actually Niko, I disagree with you about whether Bartholomew would be “responsible” for any schism in the CoG. That would be the CoG itself which is responsible, all of the bishops and not just the primate. I don’t mean to quibble and I do realize that this entire train wreck was set in motion by Istanbul but that doesn’t mean that any particular Local Church has to go along with it.
The Greeks did. As I said, they surrendered.
George. Yes u correct, and I guess I wrote with so much anger was not thinking of exact words.
I remember my father telling me when i came home very late blaming friends ‘ No my son YOU made that decision ‘ Not yr friends ‘!
It’s sad for a greek that October is the month we celebrate ( 28) No day or Όχι ημέρα. When Greeks DID stand up even at secular level.
I am just disgusted and angry at the destructive chaos this doing to Church.
I see two reasons. With few exceptions the hierarchs as Ware, talk the talk and then forget the walk. Serbia and some bulgarian bishops being current exception.
All their cautious arguements fall by wayside because Bartholomaios is doing damage NOW.
All Silence and Munich diplomacy do is, well…. what they did at Munich in autumn 1938! No more, no less
Bartholomaios has brought into the Church, with no re ordination etc, so called clergy, priests and bishops, with no apostolic succession or from defrocked clergymen. It’s difficult to get one’s head around.
If the Church of Bulgaria falls, for us here we will fall back on the Russian podvorie of St Nicholas in Sofia but that is 260km away so can’t bee every week. Or go to Serbia. Well see what happens. During our recent uk visit we attended London Russian Cathedral. Hopefully church of Bulgaria will remain strong.
As lay folk our personal responsibility is i, guess, comensurate with our knowledge and understanding. Which means for us, full responsibility, even if we put head in the sand.
Ioannis,
I don’t deny the discrepancy of canon law with the current situation of the Phanar being under Muslim rule. Yet, I don’t believe there is any canon saying the protothronos of the Church ceases to exist when the Emperor is gone and dead. The Church still continues. When reality doesn’t match up to the canons, then there’s room for interpretation. We always try to make the best out of the worst situations.
By the way, the protothronos of the Church is a long held tradition of the whole Church. So, the EP being obedient to this tradition, is I believe, an obedience to the whole Church.
Joseph, actually there is: It is the same Canon 28!
Read St.Nicodeme’s explanation/interpretation.
And it is not because
(1) there is NO Emperor left there, and
(2) there are no remote bishops who came there to see the non existant emperor, and
(3) there is no need for the Patriarch to facilitate the non-coming bishops and do not come any more to see the non existant Emperor.
I am sure St.Nicodeme interprets Canon 28 simply and clearly enough.
But: Let me give you a simpler hypothetical example:
Joseph, the doctor, is having lunch with his younger brother Alex, also a doctor.
They are sitting in a very old traditional Restaurant called “Canon 28”. Some people say the name of the restaurant means a big Gun, size 28!
Alex says:
“You know what Joseph,
because you are having so many patients you may use my office, you know, I am only starting.”
So, every day Joseph uses Alex’s big office, without asking him.
Some years later, Joseph has practically no patients but brother Alex has many patients.
Still Joseph keeps using his office without asking Alex.Alex does not say anything because he has other very urgent problems in his head.
However one day Alex asks Joseph politely if Joseph could now empty Alex’s office and move to his own small office.
Joseph is surprised:
-“But Alex I have been using your office for so long, and you never said to me you that you will ever take it back from me!
-“Oh yes, indeed, I did Joseph, that was the logical implication, remember what I told you in that restaurant “Gun, or Rule or Canon 28” or something?
I told you “because you are having so many patients you may use my office”, but the situation is now the other way round, I now have many patients and you just a couple. So I need my big office, now”
Ioannis, Canon 28 was excised from the acta of the fourth Council on order of Pope Gregory the Great. They were a nullity up until the recent past.
Pope Leo I, actually, in 452, immediately after the council. See Leo’s extensive correspondence with the Eastern Emperor Marcian, his Empress Pulcheria, and Patriarch Anatolius of C’ple, in which Leo wrote that he was “vetoing” Canon 28 – and when they had vainly attempted to change Leo’s mind, they ended by acquiescing in Leo’s action. Canon 28 was reenacted by the “Council in Trullo” in 691 or 92, a council whose canons Rome never “received.” (Canon 28 may have been repromulgated on his own authority by the Eastern Emperor Zeno in 482, as part of the lead-up to his Henotikon, an attempt to sweep the Council of Chalcedon under the rug, but this is uncertain. Curiously, it was enacted for Rome at the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215, a council summoned by the most powerful of all Medieval popes, Innocent III, but with the understanding that it pertained only to the “honorific status” of the sees named in it.)
See Leo’s letter to the Empress Pulcheria of 22 May 452:
“Consensiones vero episcoporum, sanctorum canonum apud Niceam conditorum regulis repugnantes, unita nobiscum vestrae pietate IN IRRITUM MITTIMUS, et per auctoritatem beati Petri apostoli, GENERALI PRORSUS DEFINITIONE CASSAMUS, in omnibus ecclesuiasticis causis his legibus obsequentes …” which may be translated as:
(I have put into capital letters the key phrases)
“Indeed resolutions of bishops which are repugnant to the rules of the holy canons composed at Nicaea, in conjunction with the loyalty of your faith, WE MAKE VOID, and by the authority of Peter, the blessed Apostle, WE VETO ABSOLUTELY BY A GENERAL DECREE, in all ecclesiastical causes following those laws which the Holy Spirit laid down through the 318 prelates for the peaceful obedience of all priests …”
If memory serves, the Phanar hailed the Turkish sultans as the inheritors of the Byzantine throne. Even today, the EP serves under the good graces of the Turkish president. The EP is literally a dhimmi.
I guess they interpret the Emperor in Canon 28 to mean the ruler of Istanbul.
The EP as an institution was corrupt since long before 1453, which is probably why the Lord saw fit to let it fall. Man-made tragedy.
Ioannis. THANK YOU. For yr LOGICAL ORTHODOX, PLAIN word, cool and calm demolishing of the Phanar pack of cards.
What is appalling is that even from those greek hierarchs opposing him we hear no such plain and clear witness but their’s is lost in verbiage and hedging bets.
We get the politicians we deserve but at least we can vote for or against, but we get the quisling comfort loving corrupt bishops CHRIST DOES NOT DESERVE
It seems to me the OCU’s Metropolitan Epiphany was not attempting anything purposefully in violation of canon law, even though that may have actually been the case. Graceless? Well, maybe a bit clumsy with the canons.
I used to sing in the Church choir when my voice was better, and on Pascha, the local Greek Catholic priest would wear his stole and always join us in the choir. He could sing well, and since his parish celebrated on Western Easter, he was always available. He enjoyed it, and we greatly appreciated having his help. Was his singing with us in violation of the canons? Well, yes I believe so. Did anyone really care? No. Did that make my parish graceless? Well, maybe a bit clumsy.
There is a difference between a Greek-Catholic singing in the choir and a roman catholic priest dressed in full liturgical attire standing in the altar during the liturgy. Plus, it was prominently featured on the OCU website and even defended by Epiphany’s right hand man- Zorya.
We may show you any evidence imaginable that the OCU is a schismatic group of church-despising thugs and you will still deny it. Please don’t be so pig-headed Joseph.
Besides, why did they scrub the photos? Because they felt the heat, that’s why.
That poor Catholic priest, after being shamed by orthochristian.com, I wonder if he will ever convert to Orthodoxy.
The photos show the Catholic priest standing back while the new altar is being consecrated. The Catholic priest does not appear in any way involved in the consecration, but rather appears to be observing it. Although this is unusual and probably not keeping with Church canons, it appears to me that orthochristian.com is purposefully making a bigger deal about this than it actually is.
If the OCU does anything even remotely not keeping with the canons, we can rest assured that we will read about it at orthochristian.com
First of all, this was no valid consecration.
Second, don’t feel so sorry for “the poor Catholic priest”. Within a few years, Dumenko’s outfit will be fully unified with Shevchuk’s Uniates.
Third, the OCU will be closely monitored by orthochristian and other sites but only as a curiosity. At least we hope that it will never rise to the level of being the chaplaincy of a violent neo-Nazi militia.
George, I certainly hope for an end to war in Ukraine. It would be beyond horrible if the OCU ever became the “chaplaincy of a violent neo-Nazi militia”. That shouldn’t happen, yet if war continues in Ukraine, perhaps it just might. I believe the neo-Nazi party “Golden Dawn” has also had noticeable popularity in Greece, even with the support of Orthodox clerics and bishops within the CoG. Russia also has it’s own neo-Nazi “Russian National Unity” party which has backing from ROC clergy, and it’s said are joining the fighting in Eastern Ukraine with the separatists. When a country is under threat of attack, it’s probably normal for such groups to rise up, even with the support of clergy. The promotion of “Just War” as a minor moral good probably helps to clarify the conscience of many such neo-Nazi militias and the clergy who support them.
Metropolitan Epiphaniy is here visiting the U.S. currently, and it sounds like he will be in Washington D.C., no doubt visiting with U.S. officials. I hope the U.S. government doesn’t push a war agenda on him, yet that may already be the plan. The way that Metropolitan Epiphaniy has been mostly ostracized by the Orthodox Churches and even attacked in Orthodox news and media, makes him much more vulnerable in my opinion.
Joseph I can see that you are a good man. I too, agree with you in that I hope that the State Dept “doesn’t push a war agenda on him,” and yet I too fear along with you that “that may already be the plan”.
Knowing that he is not a valid clergyman and that his mysteries are devoid of grace, I have to wonder however if he even gives a rat’s ass about anything. Or maybe he’s just too stupid to see that his country is going to be fed to the wolves. I guess when Ukraine is finally carved up he can always look on his mantle and see that bright, shiny “Athenagoras Human Rights Award” and derive some comfort from it.
Dear George,
When you allow posters like Mr. Lipper to continue on posting in his disturbing ways you may find that many Orthodox Christians turn away from your blogging site. That is normal Orthodox Christian behavior, and actually blessed, what does that say about your acquiescence at best?
At some point you could be offended by defending the right of “free speech” to the extent you do, especially when it is in conflict with Orthodox tradition regarding such matters.
I certainly know it’s time to leave this place when you see those that plot against the Orthodox Church and frequently support the tearing apart of the unity of the Orthodox Church as “good men”. I have been hearing such notions too often these days, people that support attacking Christ’s Church and outright do so I have heard are “very proper, considerate and intelligent etc.”, clearly not all of us agree with such misunderstandings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVTvJXroA0g
Orthodox Patriarch of Moscow – Why they plot against the Russian Orthodox Church
Look barring is not an answer. Debate and confronting politely is and George well able, as he does, to say the words of truth. As are we all who are Orthodox and love the Church in fear and truth.
The first reaction of the Russian Church to what Bartholomew said.
October 19, 2019
.
(Semi-automatic translation)
.
“The joint Liturgy of Hieronymus with Patriarch Bartholomew does not mean recognition of the Ukrainian schismatics by the head of the Greek Church,” the Russian Orthodox Church points out.
.
The Vice-President of the Moscow Patriarchate’s External Ecclesiastical Relations Committee, Fr. Nikolai Balasov, noted, inter alia:
:
“The Patriarch Bartholomew mentions the” Metropolitan Epiphany” in every Liturgy, and if we consider that a Liturgy with the Patriarch Bartholomew means recognizing the” PCU “, we must stop communicating with all the Primates of the local Orthodox churches. ”
.
“So the consequences stated in the statement of the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church (of October 17) can be put into effect if the Archbishop of Athens himself starts to commemorate the name of the head of the schismatic church otherwise, for example, via a message or a congregation, that testifies to the recognition of non- canonical communion of Ukrainian schismatics” he added.
.
Full text in Greek:
https://katanixi.gr/2019/10/19/%CE%B7-%CF%80%CF%81%CF%8E%CF%84%CE%B7-%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AF%CE%B4%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%83%CE%B7-%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82-%CF%81%CF%89%CF%83%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AE%CF%82-%CE%B5%CE%BA%CE%BA%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%AF/
So does this mean that Abp. Ieronymos has NOT yet led the Greek church into schism by concelebrating with Pat. Bartholomew where he-who-shall-not-be-named is mentioned, but this would only happen if Abp Ieronymos begins doing so on his own?! My God, I pray that may be so and that Abp. Ieronymos does not take that further step into schism!
When a bishop (A) concelebrates with another bishop (B) who is not in communion with another bishop (C), then it is teaching and practice of the Orthodox Church that (A) and (C) are also not in communion. Basic Orthodox ecclesiology. Besides, Met. Epiphanios’ name was mentioned in the Liturgy.
The Greek Church has officially entered into schism from the Orthodox Catholic Church. Lord have mercy on us all.
http://orthochristian.com/124822.html
“The Greek Church has officially entered into schism from the Orthodox Catholic Church. {followed by yet another link to orthochristian.com}”
Both “sides” of course have their propaganda machines, but the MP’s appears to be more effective at this stage – certainly here at Monomakhos. I wonder what the MP will reap down the line from the sowing of its almost Soviet style propaganda war? Will the legacy of their hard of heart legalism limit their voice in any future council? The ROC history with the Old Believers suggest that they are all but incapable of rapprochement and “economia” within their own boundaries, let alone with other Churches. Could it be that EP’s ecclesiological novelties will look moderate and even “necessary” in the face of ROC arrogance and failure(s) in any future council?
Without a real council the de-evolution of the Ecumenical (Universal) Church of the East into a mere collection of “Orthodox” ethno-national “churches” will continue. Just as the ROC church has already explicitly claimed a NA style multi-jurisdictionalism will be normal in places like Greece where the ROC will set up ethnic shop. In a generation or two this split will be all but permanent, and the fracturing of the Church of the East will be complete and as irreversible as 1054 or 1517.
Most here will reply with yet another spitting claim of “sssschissmatticcc’sss” and amateur canonical finding, but the problem is not at a canonical level and will not be solved there. Indeed, there is little evidence that it will be solved at all. Will my ancestors (or God forbid, myself) be lamenting the late great Church of the East?
“The ROC history with the Old Believers suggest that they are all but incapable of rapprochement and “economia” within their own boundaries, let alone with other Churches”
Christopher’s thesis is peculiarly uncluttered by facts. Let’s review some of them:
1) Starting with the 20th century, and tragically cut short by the Revolution, the ROC set in motion a MASSIVE rapprochment with the Old Believers, with measures of freedom and equality which would be deemed positive even by today’s standards.
2) In 1969 the Moscow Patriarchate allowed its clergy to commune Old Believers in situations of Emergency. The practice has not been rescinded, and was followed by the lifting of the anathemas (1971 by the MP, 1974 by the ROCOR). The ROC has assigned BISHOPS to the Old Rite, and today it is normal to see some of the Holy Synod’s metropolitans celebrating according to the Old Rite.
3) There are official and ongoing commissions on dialogue and rapprochment, conferences, various meetings between the Patriarch and the Metropolitan of the Bela Krinitsa Concord (the largest group of priestly Old believers).
If Christopher could offer us some parallel facts of official documents from Constantinople allowing the practice of communing Old Calendarists, some data about the lifting of the anathemas against them, the name of some Metropolitans of the Fanar’s Holy Synod assigned to the Old Calendar, or maybe some snapshots of meetings between the Ecumenical Patriarch with one or more of the Old Calendarist Archbishops, then, well… we might agree with him that that EP’s ecclesiological novelties will look moderate and even “necessary” within their own boundaries, let alone with other Churches.
“The ROC history with the Old Believers suggest that they are all but incapable of rapprochement and “economia” within their own boundaries, let alone with other Churches.”
Have you never heard of the Edinovertsy? The Church of Russia tried hard to bring the Old Believers back, but it was the Old Believers themselves that refused to compromise. They are in fact the legalistic ones, while the Church of Russia made many accommodations for them.
Basil, thank you for your reply. Whatever faults the ROC has, an aversiion for rapprochement with canonical Churches is not one of them. We saw that in real time on Ascension Day, 2007, when the MP and Met Laurus of ROCOR formally ended the schism between ROCOR and the MP.
I met some old believers at the famous cemetary Cathedral in Moscow which has amazing 16c icons. On hearing I was Greek they refused to sit with me in same room. Beautiful liturgy very austere and monastic chanting and beautiful robes. Devout people.
ROCOR and ROC are both downstream from the same culture. It’s not nothing, but it is not the same as Ukraine which is a different culture, language, nation state and in de facto Orthodox ecclesiology a different church. ROC plans to sit on their hands until the dominate and conquer the “scchiissmaatttcessesseses”
Christopher, clearly you know very little about Rusyn civilization. Leaving that aside, the fact remains that Dumenko is a fraudulently ordained charlatan and that his “flock” is schismatic. You can castigate ROC/ROCOR all you want but you can’t convince us as to the validity of the OCU’s mysteries.
And don’t forget, some of those schismatic “bishops” are self-ordained.
Culture determines these facts, not the canons or any other sort of legal expression. So yes, this is a factual disagreement. It may or may not be solved on Christian grounds, but it will be solved there and not on legal grounds.
Even on a factual level however, simply asserting the “Rusyn” mythology in a simplistic way (i.e. as if Ukrainian is not now a culture, language, and nation state) is surprising coming from you George! Even on this level, these legalisms are not carrying the day…
I don’t assert that there is a separate Ukrainian culture at all! However in asserting this, you fall into the heresy of ethnophyletism. Or, let us put our cards on the table: should we have a separate American Orthodox Church because our own culture is far more different than Istanbul’s than the Ukraine’s is from Russia?
I ask that you think very deeply on this subject.
I also ask you to consider that wherever the Russians go and establish eparchies and/or autonomous churches, they eventually put in indigenous bishops and primates. Why don’t the Greeks do the same as well? (As a Greek, I ask this with a heavy heart.)
George actually this’ little Russian Culture’ was the one as more western, that Peter Great forced on Russian church with his church synod from early 18c. With it’s westernised singing style and Catholic influenced theology and art. There is a case to argue that for well over a 100 yrs ‘ The Russian ‘church was in Ukrainian captivity.
Sorry George, been extra-ordinarily busy the last few days and just now seeing your question:
“…the heresy of ethnophyletism. Or, let us put our cards on the table: should we have a separate American Orthodox Church because our own culture is far more different than Istanbul’s than the Ukraine’s is from Russia?”
Yes. This Church of the East’s condemnation of the ethnophyletism is on paper – a kind of expression of an anxiety around its own existence. The Church of the East IS an ethno-national entity, and this is our de facto ontology and has been since the fall of the Empire.
We have no other kind of ontology. When we get around to having a real ecumenical council, where-in a real canonical order that really rests on an unam sanctam that is something other than ethno-national (and thus culturally determined) ontology occurs, well then things will be different. Until then, it’s at best wishful thinking to claim that this Church of the East is not, at least as a worldly institution and practical ecclisia, not ethnophyletistic through and through…
‘Christopher’ seems to be completely innocent of history, and merely the victim of a false education.
Russia, as a political entity, started in its capital city,Kiev, now the capital of the fictive country of ‘Ukraine’. An ancient Russian saying tells us hat ‘Kiev is the mother of Russian cities’.
There was no cultural difference between the people of what is now called Ukraine and the rest of Russia before that culture was interrupted by the Tatar invasions of the fourteenth century.
At that time, the royal court and the seat of the ecclesial metropolis moved northeast into safer territory protected by the well-armed cities of the Golden Ring. The grand prince kept his title of Kiev, as did the metropolitan.
Once it became clear that the Tatars had so completely wrecked the land that none of its previous inhabitants could return, Moscow became their capital instead of Kiev, and the grand princes became tsars while the metropolitans became patriarchs after one of Constantinople’s occasional lapses into uniatism in the 1440s.
But during the nearly three centuries when ‘Little Russia’ (called that because the rest of the country was so large compared to its origins) was uninhabitable, usurpers — mostly Poles and Lithuanians — moved in and emplaced their own culture and religion. By A.D. 1700, RC incursions into that area had greatly reshaped the political and religious landscape.
This was the beginning of the conflict among the people of that region.
Since most of them remain Orthodox Christians even now, and since uniats and roman-rite Catholics inhabit mostly the northwestern part of the area, it might be best for ‘Ukraine’ to unexist itself as a country, allowing for the majority to remain Russian and Orthodox and for the rest of them to be absorbed by their RC neighbors.
It is, after all, a question of religious affiliation, not of politics or nationality.
“Ukraine which is a different culture, language, nation state and in de facto Orthodox ecclesiology a different church. ”
Christopher, the veneration of Roman Shukhevych and Stepan Bandera is not compatible with Orthodoxy, sorry. Ukrainian Orthodox will never accept this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
Over our many Moscow visits to see friends, apart from the famous cemetary Cathedral, we attended an old rite liturgy in church of St Nicholas under Moscow patriarchate. Very beautiful austere singing compared to the more emmotive modern Russian style ( that i do love) and facinating robes.
Do you also believe Tulsi Gabbard is a Russian agent?
Yes, Christopher, do you agree with Mdme Clinton that this is so?
Your accusations of legalism and Russian propaganda are getting very old Christopher…or is it Jake? Perhaps it is time to stop trolling?
I met some old believers at the famous century Cathedral in Moscow which has amazing 15c icons. On hearing I was Greek they refused to sit with me in same room. Beautiful liturgy very austere and monastic chanting and beautiful robes. Devout people. Σας
Yes, Mikhail, I saw your and Randy’s tete a tete with this character on ByzTex and it left a bitter taste in my mouth. Despite their denials, these creeps are using the same tactics as the Fordhamite and Torontonian playbook: obfuscate the matter through sophistry, accuse their opponents’ arguments of being ‘Westernized,’ making accusations of legalism, calling people Russian bots (among other Russophobic canards), and – worst of all – literally dehumanizing people. Add their denigration of a man’s Orthodox piety and their affront to the writings of the Holy Fathers, and you have a toxic brew straight from Hades – a toxic brew that many so-called Orthodox Christians have imbibed to drunkenness.
Let God arise and let His enemies be scattered.
Christopher: other than your misunderstanding of elements of Russian history, I actually agree with you to a large extent. I certainly fear we are seeing the devolution you describe happening in real time.
And as an aside, I am a regular communicant of a GOA parish (wonderful parish and priest) and I would love to be “on the side of the CP”, but his actions have been unlawful to a degree that I wonder if he has lost control of his mental faculties – I say this as the most generous interpretation of his behavior that I can imagine and in no way intended to be insulting.
Christopher. There is some truth in what u say but only so far. Amost all the national Churches have played fast and lose with the canons including the Church of Russia. If this was a inter -Orthodox spat over territory we could shake our heads and ignore. Not good but livable.
But this is not. The question is not even autocephaly as such BUT HOW AND TO WHOM?. If you don’t understand the moral and other consequences of what Phanar has done and Mr Denisenko and Mr doumenko, i am not going to bore every one again here.
It’s appalling. I as an Orthodox and a greek am disgusted. As it happens I am not over keen on Kyril but that irrelevant.
Above all the Phanar is claiming for itself papal powers based on canons of defunct empire. And we are meant to run the Church this way? YES the Church IS a collection of national Churches. I suggest you look to Rome for yr guidance .
The Russian Church may be many things, including a WITNESSING martyred Church as Church is in Ukraine too, but all that irrelevant to the facts. Intransigent? Yes it happens to be Orthodox.
And ha, the Phanar has given a autocephaly that does not even come close to the autonomous status of Archbishop Onouphrios. And why is it not giving same status to USA. GOA?
I will tell u why. Money and power. I will not even get to the corruption which endemic.
Until the Orthodox church formulates a governance reality that, well, …. meets reality, our witness will continue to be weak. The scandal of the delusional batchelors in the Phanar must end including their sucking life blood out of Church of Greece and GOA.
Having comment trouble George? I will try again:
“The question is not even autocephaly as such BUT HOW AND TO WHOM?….YES the Church IS a collection of national Churches…. why is it not giving same status to USA. GOA? I will tell u why. Money…power….corruption …”
This is right Nikos. This is a cultural conflict, not an inter-church “canonical” tussle. ‘Ecclesia is downstream from culture’, not the reverse and certainly not downstream from the canons.
All this amateur lawyering is vanity. As someone who opposes the EP’s particular canonical reading/justification for his creation of the OCU, fact is as per the letter of the canonical law he has the better argument. The MP’s better argument is post-Empire precedent and precedent in the Ukraine).
The MP’s weakness is ironically cultural and precedent. Since the de fact ontology (despite the anachronistic assumptions of the canons) of the post-Empire Church of the East is ethno-nationalism, the Ukrainians are ontologically their own “church”. They are their own culture, language, and nation state. The MP’s strategy to sit on their hands with a “Repent you Sccchissmattticcc’sss” for 100, 200, 500 years is at best legalistic, and is never (ever ever) going to work. Sure, the Russians could conquer the Ukrainian nation (either quickly with tanks or slowly through cultural/political dominance) but this is not the way of Christ and His Church.
You good folks can go on (and on, and on) about this or that dubious bishop, this or that outrageousness of the EP (or MP), this or that….fill_in_the_blank. You can make a fetish of the canons – essentially saying (or worse, living) “ask not what the canons can do for you, but what you can do for the canons!”. You can pretend that humanity, made in His Image, is a legal fact and that the Church is a legal institution and structure. It’s all just intellectual masturbation. Indeed, I have no doubt some of you tune in for your thrill every chance you get “What did so-and so say today?!? Is this or that “God fearing” so and so bishop going to communion with the Scccissmattticcc’ssss today?!?”. Canonical masturbation is no substitute for manliness and simply being human folks, and it’s no way to run a household or an Ecumenical (Universal) Church.
Neither the MP nor the EP’s legal case matters at all, because life, the Church, and God are not legal matters. See the Gospel, St. Paul for reference.
Circling back to your point Nikos, what is the basis for “autocephaly” or any other canonical aspect of the Life (His Life) of the Church? The question answers itself (hint: Christ, and not “the canons”). What is a “autocephaly”, or a “Metropolitan”, or a “Territory” in the modern world? Right now (and for the last 1000 years), this Church of the East is ontologically ethno-national “churches”. The Ukraine is going to make this even more clear than it already is. It’s also going to open the crack between the Greeks and the Slav’s even wider, but it’s an old crack. Greece was always going to recognize the EP’s OCU, as surely as the rest of the Greek aligned Orthodox churches will. The Slavs will go with the MP. The Antiochian’s will go with Russia eventually, but that has as much to do with their existential/political situation as anything and just proves once again that ecclesia is downstream from culture.
Now, imagine what’s going to happen here in NA/Europe now that the gentleman’s agreement around “multi-jurisdictions” is being stressed to the breaking point? Canonical masturbators are set up for an endless thrill… 😉
Chris, whether Greece was “always going to recognize” the OCU’s autocephaly is irrelevant. It’s still a heresy and in contrast to proper Orthodox ecclesiology.
And I won’t even go into the entire self-ordination aspect of their bishops. I hardly think that the EP and his acolytes “have the better argument”.
Christopher. Of course Culture plays a big part and of course Ukraine may need it’s own Church and of course if Moscow had done that it might have pulled rug from under the ultra nationalists. But it’s legal autonomous and far FREER Church , not asking for it. And of course in this sinful world of Passion, all these things come into play. We live in Bulgaria where. recent history also played out with passion. Where Greeks barely saw Bulgarians as Christian ( are u a Christian or bulgarian was common question 100yrs ago.) And with sone Greeks, still today. And yes there is from war Terrible history from bulgarian occupation of parts of north Greece, but would we have been any different???
I personally have had no interest in church politics. ‘ keep far from the clergy and attend church ‘, was the advice of my grandfather in Patras. My struggle is daily to explain and live my faith to those around me, family, friends and wider society. I am constantly under mined in this by the gross politics and scandal AND AM TIRED OF IT, I want bishops who are bishops, monks, who LIVE their belief. Young people, as we did, quickly see hypocrisy and walk away.
I am Greek and as a human being proud of my identity and witness it has given to Orthodox Christianity. I live in a Slav country that actually is proud of those byzantine roots and what it has made of them as a bearer of this Culture to Slavs. As human beings we express ourselves culturally do we not? That is the mistake or wish of the secularists that we have no Culture apart from the one they wish to give us.
Politically, not that it relevant but I am not right wing and let’s say as an outsider have grave reserve re trump. BUT I UNDERSTAND, as Brexit in Uk, how we got here and who responsible .
So i don’t wake up every day with a thrill to see the next installment. Nor do most on the blogg. I wake up with sadness re all this.
I desparately long to be thinking of Christ, of how we witness to Him and to see Church do that. And yes I am sure the saints do this and we do not know them but it is the other side that is shown.
I started out respecting the Patriarch in Phanar, I AM GREEK. I had reserve about it’s seeming allowing of liturgical aberrations of worse kind I have often discussed here etc. But I had respect.
I always knew the Russian church and Bishop Anthony Bloom and the lives of Fr Alexander Men etc. And the persecution it suffered and here in Bulgaria. I know Russia too have travelled and having one friends there and speaking Russian. I do not defend all they do but that true of life too.
I am not going Christopher to go over the Subject of the Ukraine again and again. I am sick and tired and I guess many here are too. But Christopher I leave you with a question, How and why do you think I have arrived at the view and understanding that I have now? The view shared by many here and why we regard what has happened as a crisis?
Just to add in London we have greek Catholic Ukrainian friends, good friends. SO I know quite a lot on personal level. Surprisingly their antipathy is directed as much against Poles as russians.
The Church is in crisis and under attack. It follow on from the fall of communism. Communist power as Ottoman in a sense protected the Church from facing the realities of the western world it is now flung full face into.
Christopher just to say that historically and especially from time of Peter Great it was Ukrainian bishops and Culture and singing Styles that influenced and governed Russian church so the influence was in fact from Ukraine.
And Christopher a final comment to think about.
You quite rightly mention the inter play of Culture in all these happening now and past history.
Agreed. But have you for a moment considered the cultural and social realities forging the Phanar ‘ God given’ Ideology?
These have been at play ever since 1453 if not from 13c.
These are it’s desparate need to justify itself in present conditions ; to claim a pan – Orthodox power and prestige? Humanly it is totally quite understandable. What better way to cement yr financial and ‘ spiritual ‘base by aquiring over seas property and access to money and power. Thus it can represent itself as a ‘power ‘ to Turkish authority and to it’s western friends.
Reminds me of the PAPACY and Vatican I in 1870 and papal infalibity. To make up for loss of worldly power. Yes Moscow has been tempted by the same power but difference is that up to now Moscow has not over turned Orthodox ecclesiology for a papal one, nor is claiming it. It is the Phanar. Amd with whom!!
Nikos,
Thanks for all your comments, much to think about. Yes, the EP’s assertions (i.e. it’s interpretations and judgements) of it’s place in the Church as “Ecumenical Throne” do in fact bring up these “papal” questions. Even if folks draw a too simple corollary between them and say Vatican I dogma, the question(s) are very legitimate. The trick I think is to ask these questions with in a self possessed way – an honest accounting of the assumptions you hold. Most folks ask them without truly knowing their own presuppositions around everything I point to, for example they simply assume that the post-Empire ethno-national ‘detente’ is changeless dogmatic Orthodoxy around unam sanctam, canonical order, etc…
Christopher., there i agree with you. We are at a crisis which u will know in greek means a turning point, a judgement.
Yes totally, is a totally ethno- centric Church the answer? I as you would say not.Its part of the mix but not the solution if taken to extremes . We need a new course relating to modern reality . Sadly currently I see neither side being able to bring reality to the table.
Thank you for yr curteous reply. We need this dialogue in love, not ranting across the vibes! Luckily George and vast majority of good folk on here give us that curteous, Civilized space . God bless you all.
I sometimes’ lose it’, which is failing on my part but hopefully not as a defining charachteristic!
Dear George,
Did Ieronymus of Athens and all-Greece commemorate Dumenko during the Divine Liturgy knowing full well that such a commemoration would likely result in days of trouble for Orthodox Christians or even schism after schism?
How does he say “Peace be with you” while creating additional turmoil in the same Liturgical space and time and actually for the plenitude of Orthodox believers? Certainly such behavior isn’t pleasing to the Lord God, the Holy Saints, the Holy Angels and the God-fearing Holy Church Fathers irrespective of ethnicity within them.
It is difficult for me to believe that so very many of the Bishops of the Church of Greece are capable of this sort of thing, George what has happened to them?
One word: kompramat.
The Church in Greece has joined in the persecution of the True Orthodox of Ukraine. It has recognized as “lawful” the unlawful actions of the EP. It has joined its self to false brethren and disregarded the true brethren. Lawlessness is being decreed as justified.
https://inklesspen.blog/2019/10/14/growing-cold-in-lawlessness/
‘True Orthodox’ does not denote canonical Local Church recognized universally. It’s a term used to describe schismatic groups (which may have good reason!) who are by definition and purpose out of Communion with all the Churches.
Metr. Onufry’s Ukrainian Orthodox Church is, pace Phanariots across the world, indisputably the Local Church in Ukraine. If you want to support the truth, get your terminology straight.
https://twitter.com/goarch/status/1185783438378446849
The new GOA Archbishop has been on a whirlwind tour. He seems to say what everyone needs/wants to here as he flashes his corporate smile. Let everyone see him offering the humanitarian award to layman schismatic pretending to be a hierarch who oversees the confiscation of Churches and the beating of clergy and parishioners. Do not trust this wolf in sheep’s clothing!
I say ignore these nauseating fools who pose as Orthodox bishops (as well as the obese man to “Epiphany’s” left in this photo – who the heck is he?) and let’s get on with our lives. The leadership of the CoG, C’ple, and any who knowingly and willingly associate with them in concelebration or communion have left the Orthodox faith that we love and hold so tenderly.
God grants them free will, & sadly they’re free to make terrible choices and yet free to still delusionally think that they’re Orthodox. Well, they’re not; all the specifics will get fleshed out in time.
Same with this lunatic at the ROCOR cathedral in Miami who, in a very “Filaret”-esque manner I might add, somehow got his name slipped up to Moscow for episcopal nomination but the ROCOR synod never nominated him. Well, the ROCOR synod appropriately suspended him when they found out as they investigate what happened. This “Archimandrite Belya” then apparently gets his panties all in a wad and supposedly leaves ROCOR with his parish and – shocker here – C’ple/GOA takes him in. I visited this Miami cathedral website – there’s not even an option to view the website in English. Clearly they’re not interested in preaching the Gospel to any who will listen, only to ministering to those who keep allegiance to Russia.
I mean, what utter idiots C’ple/GOA are. Seriously. Why would they want this disobedient, petulant “Archimandrite” in their church? Well, they are probably not interested in preaching Christ, only in pissing off ROCOR. Well, ROCOR synod, let the GOA have this disobedient, conniving “Archimandrite” – good riddance.
I already know in my heart the truth of Christ and of His Church, but God help those inquirers or non-Orthodox who are peering in and don’t know what to think of this mess. Of course on the surface people try to make it a Greek vs Russian thing, but it’s not — it’s those being faithful to Christ vs anti-Christs, i.e., vs those who labor against Him, His Truth, and His Church.
Forget about the GOA/C’ple and these wacko Ukrainian schismatics and anyone who consorts with them. We can pray for them, but as we pray for presbyterians, Mormons, or any other non-Orthodox to return to the Truth of Christ. They’re probably lost. Let’s get on with our lives, preaching the Gospel in truth and love to those who will listen.
Amen.
Anon2. Add my name to yr mailing. U said it all. As a greek I am especially shamed.
“Our freedom – freedom not from temporary tyranny in the state or temporary enslavement by the invaders, but freedom from the tyranny of the devil, from the enslavement to sin and death – was won at a costly price. And, not just a great price, but by the highest price, the price of the life of the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ.” – Metropolitan Epiphaniy
https://www.archons.org/-/metropolitan-epiphaniy-remarks
He says as he coordinates the persecution of the canonical Church in Ukraine. Lord have mercy!
Joseph, I’m Greek. Nobody in the GOA believes the crap that the Archons put out. It’s clumsy in and of itself. To try and make Dumenko some kind of modern Gandhi figure is ridiculous.
The Archon/L100 class is basically a mutual masturbation society at this point. Thanks to sites like OxiDay, the corruption is so widespread that they don’t even have the average GOA layman in the pews believing their nonsense.
George language really BUT YES LOAD OF WANKERS DOES IT!! ?
Dear Mr. Lipper,
As a matter of very basic discernment, Epiphaniy is doing the devils works in Ukraine and elsewhere. He sees the temporary enslavement by the invaders i.e.. the Russians and the canonical Orthodox Church in Ukraine as his enemies just as his mentor Denysenko does. They want to steal as many Churches as they can from Metropolitan Onuphry by any means possible. They will work hand in hand with the most corrupt of politicians and criminals to get what they want again by just about any means possible. Epiphaniy and Denysenko have a very long track record of tyranny and creating havoc and schisms. They have expressed great hatred for the Russians and others, often. These days their actions along with Bartholomew have greatly disturbed the entire Orthodox Church, they are not men of peace and love, so shame on you.
To give some sort of a human rights award to Epiphaniy is an outright mockery, that’s what the people his thugs have beaten up and persecuted think, as well as others.
P.S.
It’s not the first time a schismatic and ecclesiastical heretic has quote or used the essence of the scriptures to feign (to pretend to be affected by) authenticity.
Matthew Panchisin,
I’m concerned that Metropolitan Epiphany has become increasingly isolated and vulnerable by the constant barrage of news reports that primarily seek to cast him in a negative light and even vilify him as one who “is doing the devils works”. Is the endless media tirade against him really supposed to bring him and his flock to “repentance” somehow? No, I rather doubt it. Rather, it seems the primary intention of these news reports is to dehumanize and destroy.
There is war in Ukraine. That’s what the “church seizure” reports always seem to purposefully ignore. Any act of war, such as a church seizure, is immediately blamed in these reports as somehow a result of ecclesial autocephaly, of the EP’s “meddling”. This is strange because Ukrainian autocephaly wasn’t granted until this year of 2019, and war in Ukraine basically started five years ago in 2014 when Russia took control of Crimea.
So how can war be stopped in Ukraine? I don’t know, but having the EP withdraw autocephaly won’t help, and it also won’t put an end to church seizures. Autocephaly certainly hasn’t stopped the war either, but perhaps it could have been a bridge towards a peaceful resolution if Russia had shown even some small modicum of support for it. In the interest of peace, it would still be much better to make small baby-steps towards even some small type of recognition of Ukrainian autocephaly rather than to outright reject it. Likewise, the Russian Federation should be given some slack regarding the annexation of Crimea, but Russia still needs to give something in return for this take.
Joseph I get tired repeating problem is not autocephaly per se. And yes perhaps Moscow should have given it’s MUCH FREER autonomous church the autocephaly, But has not been asked.
It’s the actions, ILLEGAL of Phanar and TO WHOM AND HOW.
We keep on skating around these pertinent fact and I for one am bored.
Joseph, one way for war to be stopped in Ukraine would be for the neo-Nazi thugs that rule the streets and their handlers in the State Dept to allow President Zelinisky to do his job, that is to condemn the racialist preachings of the schismatic sect, clean up the corruption that is threatening to destroy the Ukrainian state as a viable polity and continue to talk to the Russian Federation.
P.S.
It’s not the first time a schismatic has quoted and used the scriptures to feign (to pretend to be affected by) authenticity.
Black Bart announced the canonization of several Athonite elders today in Karyes, including Elder Joseph the Hesychast and Elder Ephraim of Katounakia. Now, I am very happy to see their names being added to the calendar of saints and in no way disagree, but… I am VERY skeptical about Bart’s reasoning and timing. Is he trying to butter up Mount Athos and Elder Ephraim’s North American monasteries? I hope they can see through his charade.
Basil, if so, it’s self-defeating. What these venerable Elders have to say about the future is very un-Bartlike, therefore I imagine that Athos and their American dependencies will see right through it. Mind you, I’m glad that Cpole did enter them into the canon of saints as they belong there. So I have no quibble with that.
Thirty years ago, professor Demetrios Tselengidis asked Geronda Ephraim of Katounakia his impression on ecumenism, and this was his response:
“This question, my child, had also been posed by someone else, some time before you. I myself have been up here on these rocks for forty years… I have even forgotten my Greek and as such, I haven’t preoccupied myself with that issue. But, because I had to reply – seeing that I had been asked about it, and since I had no knowledge of the matter – I went to my cell and prayed, asking Christ to inform me what Ecumenism is. I received His reply, which was that Ecumenism has a spirit of wickedness and is dominated by unclean spirits”
When asked how he could verify this response, he said: “After praying, my cell became filled with an unbearable stench, which caused my soul to feel asphyxiated; I couldn’t breathe spiritually.”
Acts 23:4-5
Those who were standing near Paul said, “How dare you insult God’s high priest!” Paul replied, “Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: ‘Do not speak evil about the leader of your people.’ ”
Saint Paul is quoting Exodus 22:28.
The Holy Apostle Paul backed down from his reviling of the Christ-hating Ananias. What then can justify the gratuitous insults against the Patriarch of Constantinople or other hierarchs of the Throne of Constantinople?
Aren’t you a little ashamed about your childish name-calling against spiritual leaders of Orthodox people?
George and company, you are better than this. Or so I would like to think.
Martin, your rebuke stings. Perhaps justly so. But can we think about this analogy from St Paul a littler further?
Do we really want to place the EP –and more importantly, does the EP want to be considered in the place of–Ananias, the High Priest?
Think of it. Yes, we are enjoined –commanded even–to respect those placed in authority over us. That doesn’t mean said leaders are left off the hook for their decisions. Your analogy to Ananius then most injurious to the EP’s reputation. Perhaps he should think long and hard about his actions? Does he want to be remembered as one of the corrupt High Priests of the Jews during the generation that elapsed from the crucifixion of Jesus to the destruction of the Temple? I certainly would not want this to be my legacy.
I have called the Patriarch no names. But he insults the confessing church of Ukraine under His Beatitude Metropolitan Onufry. Patriarch Bartholomew has caused unnecessary divisions in the church. The truth is, the Russian church is no longer in captivity. She is like Sampson with his hair grown back. That is what the world cannot tolerate.
Martin you mischaracterize this. This is along the same line as Christ’s directive to follow the proper things said by those who sit in the seat of Moses. Not because those who say it are good decent honorable people. But because they sit on Moses’ seat and do what they say in faithfulness should be obeyed.
But there is no command to follow false prophets into schism or heresy. If these are the best defenses that can be made for Black Bart, he is surely in trouble in the eyes of the Just Judge.
Martin,
Is your comment an effort to shut down or stifle discussion of the most important international issue facing the Orthodox world today – i.e., the deepening schism within our church body that C’ple instigated, backed/funded and propelled by our own American State Dept., and now that the CoG is supporting ?
Because it seems like a comment meant to shame and to stifle or shut down discussion. Rest assured that St Paul had no qualms about calling out hypocrisy and bad behavior in the Christian churches as documented in his epistles. Many of us see our beloved churches being ravaged by charlatan wolves in sheep’s clothing. Prayer is paramount, but prayer is also a call to action.
If these were true faithful leaders worthy of emulation, then I’d think you’d have a point. But many of us view the perpetrator leaders as charlatans at this time. Should St Mark of Ephesus have shut up and done nothing?
If your comment is not meant to shame and/or to stifle/shut down discussion of this all-important topic, please clarify.
Look how shamefully you all react! You know that this name-calling is unnecessary: these issues can be discussed perfectly well without a resort to insults and derogation. You sling about abusive terms to stir up base passions, and then you pretend that this is true to Orthodoxy.
Discuss all you wish! I encourage it! But keep a civil tongue in your head about our leaders.
Remember: the atheists are watching. Every term of abuse you teach them now, they will use down the line against the hierarchs you like. Laugh at the “Black Bart” gibe today and you will wince at the “Red Kirill” insult tomorrow.
Alas, I know how this thread will end up. Proverbs 9:7—“Whoever corrects a scoffer gets himself abuse, and he who reproves a wicked man incurs injury.”
So be it.
Martin, if you look just a few words down from Proverbs 9:7 you will see in Proverbs 9:8, “rebuke a wise man, and he will love you.” Only a “scoffer” reacts with “Look how shamefully you all react!”
Martin,
It seems that much has to do with how much of “our leaders” one considers C’ple and the GOA to be anymore.
For many, these “leaders” are like the grandfathers we once loved and respected but who have now abandoned us in favor of wealthier, unrepentant, and schismatic children in the West.
They are are now more like our now-no-longer-pretending hippie grandfathers who are angry at their children and grandchildren who take this Orthodox Christianity stuff so seriously. They seem to much prefer the unrepentant to us.
Not everyone here degenerates to name calling. But for many of us, we love Christ and our Church more than anything in the world and cannot understand why or fathom how our grandfathers whom we loved would abandon it for wealth, money, and grandeur promised by the Western atheist secularists. If we vehemently and vociferously object to C’ple’s behavior, I’d say it’s for good reason.
I’ve long thought that if these issues were discussed more openly in other venues, it’d be healthier. But George’s forum here is one of the only places where faithful can read about what’s going on, read others’ thoughts, and post their own.
Instead of growing angry with us, why not get angry with Ancient Faith Radio – which has shown itself to be a completely pathetic organization in not allowing any discussion of this vastly important issue facing international Orthodoxy today. Why not ask this organization which markets itself as modern Orthodox journalism why they won’t allow this issue to be touched on their airwaves?
Why not get angry with the participants on the Episcopal Assembly who’ve done nothing to address this issue?
Instead, you get angry with us for not adequately honoring former Orthodox leaders who’ve decided that they don’t want anything to do with their former children – faithful Orthodox Christians – any longer.
The C’ple leadership and those who associate with them demonstrate daily that they prefer to associate and commune with secularist non-Orthodox and with unrepentant schismatics rather than with their own Orthodox brothers and sisters in Russia, Serbia, Jerusalem, Antioch, and elsewhere.
My friend, this behavior – by the C’ple leadership and of those in communion with and supporting them – is what is shameful.
Anon 2. Totally agree. I try and not name call and know when i do i fail but as u the almost total Silence on what is going on and the bland bureaucratic words as seen from Greece ( shocking) and the fear. Only Serbia. Lined up by CIA. for doing over, stand out.
And in this kafka world any body trying to remain Orthodox is castigated as a reactionary relic. I watched the NY Holy Trinity liturgy on Sunday and my comments can be read elsewhere. We are under sustained attack. They failed to destroy the Church of Russia under communism and seek to do it now. This is not to defend all they do or Kyril. But to say the truth.
Elsewhere bland bureaucratic words. My contempt is total
Very true.
Martin,
obviously you have not studied Canon 28 (4th Ec.Syn.).
plus the interpretation by St.Nicodeme.
ALL BISHOPS ARE EQUAL BISHOPS FROM THE BEGINNING.
EP was simply ONE of the Bishops, with a coordinating function to assist visiting bishops to see the Emperor (THEN). Period.
Has he got the right to gift the “Holy Quran” that rejects
-The Holy Trinity
-Crucifiction of Christ
-Resurrection of Christ?
I have called the Patriarch no names. But he insults the confessing church of Ukraine under His Beatitude Metropolitan Onufry. Patriarch Bartholomew has caused unnecessary divisions in the church. The truth is, the Russian church is no longer in captivity. She is like Sampson with his hair grown back. That is what the world cannot tolerate.
Exactly. The secularists know they need to defeat Christianity in eastern Europe. It’s their prime aim
To Christopher and others, Yes what is happening is a judgement on us all in that if the Orthodox church had faced the pressing issues and not ignored or pretended not existing, or as Kallistos Ware, acting like a uk civil servent, we might have been spared ourselves much of this. But no body stood up to Moscow over reach possibly at times, and MUCH WORSE, PHANAR PAPAL CLAIMS.
So Phanar saw what could get away with.