NYC Drag Marchers chant “we’re here, we’re queer, we’re coming for your children” https://t.co/ucK1qM4fv5 pic.twitter.com/OhBguhWwZY
— Timcast News (@TimcastNews) June 24, 2023
Listen to what they say. If it this doesn’t send chills up your spine, I don’t know what will. So with this as a backdrop, what do you think about the following?
***
In a June 18 address to the Conference of European Churches, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople strongly criticized a “’new ecumenism” that champions “traditionalistic values.”
“Some American evangelical Christians, who had previously considered Catholic and Orthodox Christians as pagans worshipping idols, now appear willing to work with certain Catholic and Orthodox Christians in order to support these values,” he said. This ‘new ecumenism’ has even gone so far as to anoint President Vladimir Putin of the Russian Federation as its political champion, and Patriarch Kirill of the Orthodox Church of Russia as its spiritual leader.”
“We see the consequences of this divisive and destructive mentality on full display in Russia’s current brutal attack against Ukraine as well as in its church’s justification for this war as the salvation of Ukraine from the alleged seduction of a godless, secular, and liberal West,” he continued. “Unfortunately, this ‘new ecumenism’ is essentially un-ecumenical, if not anti-ecumenical, insofar as it positions itself against other Christians who do not support its exclusive focus on such a set of values.”
“Today, the rhetoric of the so-called ‘culture wars’ has grievously compromised any potential for dialogue, damaging the very core of ecumenism, as Orthodox are pitted against Orthodox, Catholics against Catholics, Protestants against Protestants—sometimes united only in their disagreement and denunciation,” he added. “The globalization and consecration of these ‘culture wars’ are arguably the new challenge of ecumenism, the new issue that divides us as Christians, the new barrier that prevents us from listening to and learning from one another.”
He just won’t let it go, will he?
At this point, he’s going to ride the globohomo train until the cows come home.
The lack of desire among the collective bishops to confront/rebuke him is getting tiresome.
Well, I guess Bart wants us to look the other way or be “more ecumenist” when it comes to things like this (not safe for work):
https://twitter.com/hodgetwins/status/1673085572762554371?t=SjMsegZhFz7gBQIDDiJhuA&s=01
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
I have seen the videos posted here. I am glad you have the courage to shine light on this pool of human filth spreading around America. Does anyone remember June was a month reserved for brides? I do. I used to look forward to reading bridal magazines. What happened to America!s brides? Instead, we have trans freaks twerking in Pride Parades. Old Bart supports Pride month instead of “Bride” month.
https://youtu.be/NEzk0pRDt5E
Bart is joining hands with evangelicals. Bishops who stand by Bart support grooming children. Priests that support bishops who support Bart are groomers of children. Evangelicals support grooming children. Anyone that supports Pride month is a groomer of children.
The fear of hell is the fear of death. The church members know in their conscious mind that what the hierarchy is doing is against Christ. But their conscious mind is controlled by their sub conscious fear of death. This is kind of like Stockholm Syndrome.
The issue is to unlock this manipulation that hold church members from freeing themselves from their hierarchal captors. Only then, can a new free Greek American Orthodox Christian Church be born.
“…damaging the very core of ecumenism.”
Tell us, Your All-Holiness: what is the very core of ecumenism? Does keeping the commandments of God and His Christ factor into this core?
This is why the Holy Fathers warned against ecumenism. Because it could get to the point where people who should know better, like a patriarch in the Orthodox Church, for example, who would not be able to change direction when required. He is tripling-down. Holding fast to his dangerous beliefs in spite of what he sees around him. There is no such thing as opening a door “a little.” An open door is an open door.
It falls to courageous GOA laity and clergy to call him out and depose this full on woke apostate.
You’re absolutely right.
It boggles my mind there haven’t been many – any? – public condemnations or strong reactions toward Bart or Elpi. No letters, statements, or councils? Nothing? Why haven’t the Elder’s monasteries said or done anything, yet?
It’s time Greeks started questioning the canonicity of their church. The grace is diminishing and has for over a century. The Greeks no longer baptise babies using immersion, their clergy terrified of drowning them, they no longer teach Orthodoxy as being the exclusive Church of God having signed statements recognizing the full equality of Latin sacraments. All the letters by the elders bad mouthing old calendarists, who said the calender change was a stepping stone towards ecumenism with the European churches have now come to fruition. I read them and cant help but wonder as to how wrong Elders Ephraim and Paisios were. We new calender Greek Orthodox have become worse than the Franks! Even the popes have never made the claims that bishops of Constantinople and their clergy make on a daily basis. The hateful quotes above are disgusting full of hatred for a sister Church and fellow Orthodox christians. But he is always, all smiles with the pope .
“I read them and cant help but wonder as to how wrong Elders Ephraim and Paisios were…”
What do you mean?
Their defense of New calender bishops and practises from decades ago claiming they have never nor ever will compromise on anything and yet they have. Prior to WW2 Orthodox Christians resisting the new calendar used to exclaim, “we will not become Franks”, Hence epistles from elders saying adoption of the new calendar has not lead to us becoming Franks. Surprise surprise fast forward to today.
Or the famous story of some fast while others feast. I believe it was Elder Ephraim telling an old calender husband to just fast on the new calender date with his wife. Why??? New Calender bishops want to eliminate fasting altogether and this practise plays a minimal role in today’s Greek new calender families by design. All the things they claimed will not happen in the “canonical” church has indeed happened.
So true Kosta. But don’t we ALL have a part to play here. AB Elpi has said publicly there are many “paths up the mountain” – a heresy. Every Orthodox Christian should know universalism is a heresy and therefore write their Bishop, the GOA Bishops too, and respectively state a foreign Gospel is being preached, etc., we are concerned for the One Holy Catholic Church, the Unity of the Faith and many faithful being led away. There are numerous concerns we should be conveying to the Hierarchs and ask them to protect the flock from these dangers and be Confessors of Truth. This website seems to provide a good beginning: https://www.voiceoforthodoxlaity.com
‘ …there are many “paths up the mountain” ‘
…but most of them lead to false summits.
We do make our voices heard. So what do they do? They issue official statements condemning us as fractricidal.. You know how they love to call us zealots, fanatics who lack love, anachronistic xenophobes etc. They (the bishops and clergy) slander is saying we are looking to save the church instead of the church saving us. But which church?. The papist church which according to BOTH Constantinople and Moscow have salvific sacraments and thus two lungs of the one and same Church??? (Look it up if you don’t believe this)
Kosta, I not only believe you but have experienced in a public forum just what you described. Surprisingly, after I questioned the “sacramental, two lung” statement, those in the room also spoke up! Others became alarmed that a member of the Church hierarchy would believe and teach such a thing. The discussion that followed was amazing, it fortified the faithful. We have to witness where we are and pray God will do the rest. Help your Brothers and Sisters around you so they will not fall into delusion when the false union comes. It seems now more than ever that is what is being prepared and it won’t be obviously false, it will be a muddled, confusing time but if God allows, will give rise to New Confessors of our day.
Other than Helleniscope I cannot think of even one priest, bishop, monastic in the GOA who has spoken out against the EP/Elpi, not one. If I am wrong please let me know bc I would love to be wrong.
I’ll add a caveat: Every single priest and monastic I’ve spoken to in private within the GOA is completely against the EP/Elpi, without exception.
The only ones who have spoken up are those of us from every other Orthodox jurisdiction. Me thinks the GOA has Stockholm Syndrome.
Perhaps few have spoken this publicly out of humility and love. Each will be judged for their action or inaction. Let us not worry about these things.
They are afraid of losing jobs, being censured, etc.; look at the Texas’ conservative bishop being called out by frankie and his gang!
Frankokratia???
I never thought Bart would find an ecumenism that he didn’t like. Now only if we can convince him all ecumenism emanates from Kirill, we may even be able to leave the WCC!
This war in Ukraine is not just about Russia fighting against the collective West politically, it’s also against the state religion of “ecumenism” of which Bart is an ardent acolyte.
Well, he’s the #1 reason why “Orthodox are pitted against Orthodox.”
Ecumenism will eventually go the way of mainline Protestantism, it will be dead soon enough. Why? Because ecumenism leads to secularization and no one is buying the Kumbaya crapola anymore. These days in the West, especially among the youth/young adults, the only people that are practicing are people who are actually devout and inherently against the idea of ecumenism because it leads nowhere.
This “European council of churches” or whatever is just like the EU politics or American politics or the Phanar..it’s a bunch of out of touch people who live in their own echo chambers whithout having any idea that the world around them has left them behind.
Just to show how out of touch they are. Literally no one else besides those in the EP talk about the “council” of Crete, it’s a nothingburger.
“Never get high on your own supply” is the phrase that comes to mind with the EP.
Apparently God is in the process of separating the sheep from the goats. Interesting realignment.
PS. God wants our hearts.
Patriarch Bartholomew “condemns gay life”:
https://orthochristian.com/64095.html
I’m not aware that he has said anything different that recants his position.
His recent speech where he “denounces the coalition of conservative protestants and Orthodox” and their “new ecumenism” based on “traditionalistic values” is not actually an anti-traditionalist stand at all; far from it.
Ecumenism traditionally expresses and defends the dogmas of the Faith and the Church. From such an ecumenism, traditional values follow. Yet the Faith and the Church don’t necessarily follow from “traditional values”. For example, being “anti-abortion” and “anti-gay” doesn’t bring us to Christology. Muslims are anti-abortion and anti-gay also.
An ecumenism that primarily seeks solidarity with other confessions and faiths solely on “traditional values” risks the dumbing down and/or neglect of the very dogmas of Orthodoxy. As such, it is both dangerous and anti-traditional.
This is not what ecumenism is. Ecumenism has ALWAYS been about changing the teachings of the Church. We saw this at the Council of Florence where the Orthodox party capitulated on every aspect of the faith but thankfully the Ottomon Muslims rescued us. Today we see it in the neo baptismal Theology, in the cacodox acceptance of apostolic succession of the heterodox, acceptance that icons and statues are equal and both can be venerated, that matrimony whether you call it divorce or anullment is allowed for all and any reason, that moral issues no longer concern the church unless they are approved fads of western secular democracies. Etc. Fasting is a minor optional act, that confession is an optional sacrament, and so on.
Ecumenism means universalism for a reason.
Kosta, the gold standard of ecumenism is the ecumenical councils, from which we get the Nicene Creed and the canons of the Orthodox Church. Traditional and proper ecumenism is an expression and defense of those ecumenical councils. For example, the recent Orthodox-Catholic dialogue in Alexandria that examined primacy and synodality in the first and second millenium came up with a statement (in view of the ecumenical councils) that:
“The church is not properly understood as a pyramid, with a primate governing from the top, but neither is it properly understood as a federation of self-sufficient churches.”
This was certainly interesting, because it contradicted the Roman Catholic model of primacy that is probably the chief obstacle preventing Roman Catholics from returning to the Orthodox Church. It also contradicted the protestant model of Federation Ecclesiology that prevents protestants from becoming Orthodox.
Sure, there have been many false attempts at ecumenism, such as the false Council of Florence that you mention, but the idea of ecumenism is by nature at the heart of Orthodoxy. We believe in “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church”. If we want to describe what that is, we only have to point to the ecumenism of the ecumenical councils.
Joseph,
Given this “gold standard” (with which I agree, BTW), how does one reconcile on the one hand the condemnation of an ‘ecumenism’ based upon traditional values, which I would argue is not actually ecumenism at all, but is rather more of a Christian witness to what is good for mankind living in this world, while on the other hand promoting an ‘ecumenism’ of peace between religions (a peace that is increasingly rooted in theological terms that directly contradict the ecumenical councils) and can also only be described as something that is good for mankind who must live together in this world?
Add to this the ‘ecumenism’ of climate change which, at least ostensibly, is also nothing more than a Christian witness to what is good for mankind living in this world and about which the “gold standard” says nothing.
Brian, how is it a traditional value to invade a country and kill innocent people ostensibly because their government protects and/or supports “gay parades” and/or “gay marriage”?
In a similar vein, how is it a traditional value to bomb abortion centers and thereby murder the abortionists? War equals weapons plus ideas. The rationale behind the ideas might be “traditionalistic values”, but the actions themselves, the war, may be anything but.
Patriarch Bartholomew warned Estonia not to support “gay marriage” in 2013 because it is sinful and contrary to Christianity, but he was not making a threat. He was not saying that countries that have “gay parades” and “gay marriage” should be militarily attacked and invaded. I believe his recent speech in Estonia clarifies this.
What country killed innocent people because their government protects, etc. gay parades or marriage? Name one.
Name one abortion center that was bombed.
What do killing and bombing have to do with traditional values?
Gail, I’m making an analogy here with abortion center bombings being rationalized by “traditional values” (i.e. abortion is murder), but the bombing of abortion centers obviously does not reflect a traditional value.
(I believe there was an organization called “Army of God” that claimed responsibility for such bombings in Atlanta and Birmingham years ago.)
From the speech that Patriarch Bartholomew just gave in Estonia, he refers to:
“Russia’s current brutal attack against Ukraine as well as its church’s justification for this war as the salvation of Ukraine from the alleged seduction of a godless, secular, and liberal West,”
He is referencing comments by Patriarch Kirill specifically pointing out the existence of annual “gay parades” in Ukraine as a the chief sign of this godless, secular, and liberal West. It’s interesting that Patriarch Kirill doesn’t point to the daily occurrence of abortion as the chief sign of liberal decadence though. I guess that would be too close to home.
The point is there ARE NO ABORTION BOMBINGS to be rationalized. There are sick people out there who make threats to bomb concert halls, train stations, and federal buildings, but they don’t happen with any regularity.
No one “rationalizes” them. We all think people who do these things are sick puppies.
Bartholomew is not an authority on anything. What he says in Estonia or anywhere else does not make it so. At this point, most people know exactly why Russia went into Ukraine. I listed eleven of Ukraine’s biolabs on Monomakhos with addresses and invoices to the Pentagon.
You’ve got that up and down your border, you might as well be extending an engraved invitation.
Ukraine was at the point where Russia had no choice. They had been infiltrated with Nazi whose hatred of the canonical Church is now legendary. (You know who I’m talking about. The guys Bartholomew gave up the Church to. Or tried.) They tortured people just for speaking Russian. They disregarded the Minsk agreement. They opened their country up to NATO whose mission it is to annihilate Russia.
Russia didn’t invade Ukraine. They don’t want Ukraine. Russia went into Ukraine to keep from being annihilated by their choices.
Patriarch Kirill pointing out the existence of annual “gay parades” in Ukraine as a the chief sign of the godless, secular, and liberal West, is an accurate observation, although you left out the Satanic part.
Patriarch Kirill isn’t any more responsible for abortion in Russia than your friend, Bartholomew, is for abortion in his neck of the woods, which he says is the entire world. Anywhere where the Orthodox live. – Regardless, no patriarch controls that which is outside the purview of the Church. He certainly doesn’t condone it as you’re suggesting.
This sort of nonsense doesn’t fly anymore, Joseph. It’s all stupid on it’s face. You’ve got to get some new material.
Gail, the speech by Patriarch Bartholomew is solely critical of this “new ecumenism” that seemingly champions “traditionalistic values”.
He doesn’t actually say anything against traditional values, and I believe that’s an important clarification.
My goodness, he is not promoting gay parades as some would apparently suggest.
Yes, he is saying something against traditional values.
Joseph, technically speaking, you’re correct. The problem is that it doesn’t matter. At this point, anybody who speaks out against traditional values and/or castigates those who hold them, might as well be marching in a gay pride parade.
Things have become that binary. I was listening to Tim Poole the other day and he was commenting on a gay couple of his acquaintance who are “married” and have been for several years. Because of the level of intensity of the demonic attack which is overtaking us, they are ashamed to announce to people that they are “married”. They feel that no one would understand their predicament in light of the present madness.
Unfortunately for them, it doesn’t matter. Their original crusade to fight for homosexual acceptance has brought us to this present morass, even if they had no intention of doing so.
Amen, Gail!
Joseph, I agree with Gail here. We constantly hear about “abortion centers being bombed” or gay pride parades that are supposedly being quashed by normies. But I for one, haven’t seen evidence of any of that.
Instead, we sit back and take it. And watch our country go down the toilet.
You’re spouting irrelevancies, Joseph. And you are not answering my question.
Brian, I think you said it yourself. Expressing a Christian witness (which I believe could include seeking peace among the heathen and environmental protection) is not necessarily ecumenism.
Is Russia’s anti-gay stance merely a good Christian witness though? Perhaps it could be, but it has unfortunately been used as a clarion call in Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. It has been used to gather political support from other non-Orthodox who also take an anti-gay stance.
While it’s true that the territories Russia has annexed now have strict anti-gay laws in place, it’s come at the terrible price of Christians killing other Christians. That’s not a good Christian witness, much less a traditional value.
“Expressing a Christian witness… is not necessarily ecumenism.”
Agreed.
And yet, did Bartholomew not say that Kyrill’s expressions of concern for Christian morality do damage to “the very core of ecumenism?”
“…it has unfortunately been used as a clarion call in Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. It has been used to gather political support from other non-Orthodox who also take an anti-gay stance.”
Correction: The SMO was initiated over the legitimate and reasonable security concerns of the Russian state – concerns that were completely ignored by the Western powers who refused to honor their own agreements and have openly admitted to deceiving the Russian state and using these agreements to arm Ukraine offensively against the Russian state. These same powers have openly stated that their intention all along was to weaken and ultimately break up the Russian state into exploitable parts. These statements of the Western powers have been consistently followed up by multiple military and destabilizing intelligence actions against the Russian state. And during the many years leading up to the start of the SMO, Russia consistently attempted to negotiate a peaceful settlement. Every Russian diplomatic effort to avoid war was either rebuffed or used to create “agreements” that the West never intended to honor but instead used to build up Ukraine’s offensive military capacity to be used against the Russian state.
Please understand: I hate war, and I refuse to attempt to ‘justify’ it. I am simply stating forthrightly that the notion that this war was “unprovoked” is an outright lie. It is the West that insisted upon provoking this war at the expense of the Ukrainian people (about whom they care nothing!) for the expressed purpose of destroying the Russian state.
Note: Although there may be some truth to the notion that this war is about ‘Orthodoxy,’ I do not generally subscribe to it. Rather, I believe it is primarily about a Russian version of America’s Cuban missile crisis. And the Russian state has, over many years, responded to it in a far more restrained and diplomatic manner than the US ever would.
Has Kyrill made statements about Western decadence and culture-destroying sexual deviance? Yes. Do these statements resonate with various cultures throughout the world? Yes. And is it true that the West has used, and further intends to use, these supposed ‘human rights’ issues as yet another of many fronts (including their assets in the EP) to destroy Russia and its culture both from without and within? The answer to that is also a resounding YES! Say whatever one will about Kyrill, but he speaks the truth on this matter.
As a final note it needs to be clarified that Russian social policies on sexual deviance are not “anti-Gay.” The Russian government’s policies have NOTHING to do with what people choose to do in private. They specifically relate ONLY to what is allowed in public – or what in better times in this country were known as ‘community standards.’ Do the Russian people not have a right to set their own community standards? And is it somehow inappropriate for a religious leader to have a say in these matters?
Brian, if I might add, the West (especially Uncle Sam) has lost all perspective lately. By going the full Globohoma, we’ve been needlessly antagonizing foreign nations.
That and confiscating ~$300 billion of Russia’s foreign gold reserves.
After reading these comments I see confusion as to the meaning of the word ecumenical.
To a Protestant especially, the word applies to any meeting or worship service when various churches get together. For instance, a community Thanksgiving service where Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Lutherans etc get together. I’ve been to ecumenical services with Roman Catholics. All practice the same basic belief in God and the Holy Trinity.
So it has been very confusing to me at least, that the word ecumenical means something totally different to the Orthodox. According to the definition I know, the Orthodox Church cannot practice ecumenism but has an Ecumenical Patriarch who gets in trouble practicing ecumenism.
While I have not been impressed with the WCC of recent years, I suppose it started out with good intentions.
But big organizations tend to get unwieldy.
Most of us exist in our own local bubble of family, work and local activities. And if our families have been resident in the USA for years we let the rest of the world go by. Most early immigrants came here to get away from the old world. Newer ones seem to keep one foot in each.
Furthermore, each group of immigrants brought their own church. In my city we have had Italian, German, Polish, English Roman Catholic Churches.
English brought Anglicanism and Methodism, Germans brought Lutheranism.
Lately we have Orthodox Churches from various countries we have Hispanic Churches and Haitian Churches. And I have probably missed a few.
This is the reality in this country. And for the most part, at least during my lifetime, we have respected our commonalities and differences. And as time goes on there has been a blending as we have forgotten where we came from and settled in here for generations.
And now comes the Orthodox Church, rather lately, proclaiming that it is the original Church and all the rest are heretics. At least that is the impression I get from reading this blog. From my limited observation it has not been a mission oriented Church, at least locally. And Jesus sent us out to make disciples. And a disciple is one who is attached to the Master
We tend to forget that God is overseeing all these movements of people and His Church. So far we have not had any religious wars as Europe and Ireland suffered through. I pray we have left those attitudes behind and allow God to take us where He wants us.
It is the original Church and we’ve talked about heresies being “wrong teaching.” We don’t call people heretics.
GShep, Joseph, Kosta, Lina
The word “Ecumenical” for many centuries means pertaining to the whole area where Orthodox people reside.
Some people either by lack of information or on purpose, confuse and equate “Ecumenical” with “Ecumenism”.
“Ecumenism” is a more recent term with a subtle, different meaning e.g. as mentioned in the book:
Ecumenism
by
Holy Monastery of the Paraclete
“Ecumenism is a movement, which proclaims that its purpose is to unify the divided Christian world (Orthodox, Papists, Protestants, etc.). This idea of unification moves every sensitive Christian soul and resounds its innermost desires. This is precisely the idea that Ecumenism has also appropriated. But this unifying vision –a par excellence spiritual vision- is mainly reliant on human efforts and not the energy of the Holy Spirit. It is only when the Holy Spirit encounters human repentance and humility that this vision can become a reality.
The much-coveted unification –if and when it does occur- will be nothing short of a miracle of God.”
https://www.oodegr.com/english/biblia/oikoym1/kef1.htm
More information on Ecumenism:
https://www.oodegr.com/english/oikoumenismos/oikoumenismos.htm
Ioannis, the word ecumenism is indeed more recent. It also means different things to different people, depending on perspective. The Orthodox, Protestants, and Catholics all have a different perspective and fundamentally a different understanding of ecumenism. However, the work of ecumenism is not something new. It was the work of the ecumenical councils that brought clarification and unity, and indeed Orthodoxy, to the Church.
Joseph: “It was the work of the ecumenical councils
that brought…Orthodoxy…to the Church.”
And there was me thinking the Church
was Orthodox from the beginning…
Do you find the word orthodoxia in the Bible?
There is the teaching of the Church found in the Old Testament prophets, and there is the consistent teaching of Jesus Christ and the apostles.
The Ecumenical Councils later addressed false teaching, and thus we have orthodoxia.
“Do you find the word orthodoxia in the Bible?”
Did animals exist before Adam gave them names?
Were there languages before there were grammarians?
Was there true teaching that needed to be separated from false?
The man that names a thing does not speak it into being.
He recognises the ding-an-sich (the thing-in-itself);
and affixes a convenient label to it for future discussion.
Joseph: “… ecumenism … means different things to different people…”
Archbishop of Athens, Christodoulos (†) has already replied:
“Indeed, Ecumenism – in the manner that the meaning of this term has prevailed – is certainly a heresy, because it denotes a renunciation of basic characteristics of the Orthodox faith; for example, the acceptance of the “branch theory” – i.e., that each Church has a portion of the Truth and therefore all “churches” should unite, by placing on a table all the segments of the Truth in order to complete the whole. We believe that Orthodoxy is the One, Holy, Catholic (=overall) and Apostolic Church. Full stop. There can be no argument about this, and subsequently, whosoever believes the opposite can be called an ecumenist, and as such be a heretic.”
Archbishop of Athens, Christodoulos (†)
From an interview at the Radio Station of the Church of Greece, on the 24/5/1998.
==============
«Accept no illegitimate dogma on the pretext of love» ( PG 62,191 )
St. John Chrysostom (c. 349–407)
https://www.oodegr.com/english/oikoumenismos/oikoumenismos.htm
The Archbishop is right about this being the prevalent understanding of ecumenism. However, the Nicene Creed and the canons of the Ecumenical Councils didn’t just appear out of a cloud written on stone tablets either. Between and during councils, there was always a lot of work that happened. For example, there were numerous attempts before and after Chalcedon to reconcile the Monophysites to Orthodoxy.
Ioannis- the word oikomene certainly did and still does mean the inhabited world. Even in Luke 2:1 it means the inhabited known world (of the Romans).
Ecumenism on the other hand is the pan heresy which claims the various sects must observe at least minimally an external unity, whether it be as a confederation of churches (think the various Uniate rites under the Vatican who are united with the Latin pope but not with each other, or the miaphysites who have a unity under three ecumenical coincils but not a mysteriological unity), you also have the standard ecumenism where each sect keeps its own traditions, and contradictions do not matter also known as the branch theory. And finally the invisible church theory that we are all the one body of Christ based on neobaptismal theology and a minimally alike confession. All these forms of ecumenism the sacrament of baptism is detached from apostolic succession and right belief and is an open ritual where any member of the human race has been elected to perform it as long as the form is correct and the candidate in good faith requests it, and an eyewitness can vouch for it.
Ecumenism in Orthodox circles have been all of the above. Through ecumenist meetings we have changed our dogmas and embrace heresy, hence the neo baptismal theology which was foreign prior to 1930, that the boundaries of the Church are blurred and “overflow” to the Baptists and Lutherans and Uniates and Latins and Methodists etc (one of the newer novelties to become an Orthodox teaching) . That the one holy catholic and apostolic church is not truly one but the Greek “mia” meaning what the OO claim that it does not signify “mono” but can imply a multiplicity of close knit unions and congregations. That Latins, Assyrians, Orientals all have sacraments salvific, all apostolic churches simply find themselves in an illicit standing which is suffocating the lungs of the holy Spirit. And The biggest lie of Orthodox ecumenism is we are trying to bring them over to Orthodoxy. This is a lie because the Father of lies us behind ecumenism and has effectively brought us over to heresy and that is why Bart scolds traditional Orthodox beliefs, it’s why Greek Orthodox seminaries stopped teaching the dogma that emergency baptisms require an Orthodox laymen and water (the new novelty of just any heterodox Christian required) that Fillioque is no longer a heresy even though its false and destroys the monarchia of the one God our Father as sole causality of the entire Trinity and so on.
“Ecumenism on the other hand is the pan heresy
which claims the various sects must observe
at least minimally an external unity…”
James 2:19
‘…the devils also believe’ [KJV]
RE: “All practice the same basic belief in God and the Holy Trinity. ”
Filioque!
RE: “…confusion as to the meaning of the word ecumenical”
For the original meaning, see:
Strong’s Concordance
‘ oikoumené: the inhabited earth
Original Word: οἰκουμένη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: oikoumené
Phonetic Spelling: (oy-kou-men’-ay)
Definition: the inhabited earth
Usage: (properly: the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation), the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world, for all outside it was regarded as of no account. ‘
There is however, a secondary meaning, for the source of which see:
Strong’s Concordance
‘ oikos: a house, a dwelling
Original Word: οἶκος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: oikos
Phonetic Spelling: (oy’-kos)
Definition: a house, a dwelling
Usage: … (b) a household, family, lineage, nation. ‘
The Ecumenical Patriarch was so-called because he was the Bishop (Patriarch)
of the οἶκος (household) of the Roman Emperor; ie: of Constantinople.
He was not Patriarch of the inhabited world (nor even all the Roman Empire).
But now that Constantinople is become Istanbul (and there is no Emperor)
and the title has become little more than an interesting historical anomaly,
the current Patriarch thereof is now trying to extend his area of jurisdiction
to as much of the οἰκουμένη (inhabited Earth) as he can get away with.
It is the Ecclesiastical equivalent of what happened in England in 1066
when Duke William the Bastard and his thirty thousand thieves
stole the entire country and claimed it as his God-given inheritance.
Well said, Brendan!
If I may add a few words,
Oikou+mene comes from the words
Οἰκου+μένη i.e.
House+suffix for past participle, or
Dweling+suffix etc, ie
Hous+ed (land or area) or
Dwell+ed (land or area)
say, inhabited.
The Rudder (Pedalion, Πηδάλιον) p.275,
English translation by D.Cummings 1957.
has an explanation about the word “Ecumenical”
“… designations conferred, not by any Canons….but given by custom…”
From the whole interpretation pp.271-276 we can conclude the following:
Thus Bartholomew may not consider the title as Canonical or dogmatic but simply a custom at the time that his city was the capital of the Christian world. His city, Constatinople was then the capital and the residence of the Head of State. The city’s Bishop was a kind of coordinator to assist remote bishops who wanted to see the emperor and ask for specific aid. Istanbul now 1) is not the residence of the Head of State, that is in Ankara and 2) the Turkish President does not give aid to the remote bishops e.g. from Greece, USA, Russia, Romania etc.
https://archive.org/details/rudderpedalionof0000orth/page/n9/mode/2up
https://www.lulu.com/shop/nicodemus-the-hagiorite-and-denver-cummings/the-rudder-pedalion-volume-i/paperback/product-zgdmpv.html?page=1&pageSize=4
https://ebooks.faithlife.com/product/161820/the-rudder
Dear Lina, the Orthodox Church does claim to be the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, and with good reason. If you want to understand why she makes such an arrogant claim, there is no way around reading the history of the Church, especially the early history of the times of the Ecumenical Councils. The major tenets of the Faith – those concerning the Holy Trinity, Christology, the Holy Theotokos Mary and icons, etc. were hammered out during those centuries. Roman Catholics take for granted most of what was concluded during those years, and even Protestants retain much of this deposit of Faith as though they had gotten it from the Scriptures alone.
The Ecumenical Councils were assemblies of bishops from the oecumene or the Church in the world of Christendom before there were serious divisions. Certainly that unity was challenged by Arianism, then rejection of Chalcedon, then the separation of the Roman Catholics. The key is to understand that the Orthodox Church is the reliquary of the Faith and those who don’t recognize that place themselves outside of the Church. Of course there are elements of Orthodoxy within other Christian denominations and their confessions, mostly within the Oriental Orthodox like the Copts, and also within Catholicism. But the resemblance fades when it comes to mainline Protestant groups and it becomes barely recognizable in the megachurch wannabes that grew out of nineteenth and twentieth century tent revivals.
Ecumenism, when the word is used in the conventional way, is a movement toward reunion between disparate Christian confessions. Although cooperation in almsgiving or human services is a laudable endeavor, there is a danger in modern ecumenism. That is the mistaken desire for unity without the requirement of repentance and return to the Orthodox Church. It is not enough for those groups outside the Church to have remnants of the Faith. It is incumbent upon them to turn away from heresy and embrace Orthodoxy in its original fulness. The Orthodox Church would rather maintain her distance from the non-Orthodox than compromise the Faith simply for the sake of a shallow embrace.
You cannot read yourself into Orthodoxy, however. If you are willing to find an Orthodox parish and commit yourself to a year of services there, you may become more familiar with the Orthodox mindset. God has not totally abandoned those Christians who don’t call themselves Orthodox, and He works in his own ways in human hearts throughout the world. But, his energies are found most specifically within the bosom of the Orthodox Church. Come and see for yourself!
Lina,
We do proclaim that we are the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church and that all those outside the Orthodox Church are heretics and schismatics. We do not do it because we are proud or arrogant. We do so because that is the objective reality according to the Church Fathers.
There is everything Protestant (10,000 flavors of believe as you will) and nothing Orthodox in what you wrote above. Now, it is also a fact that Orthodoxy, or at least certain circles of it, have neglected evangelism woefully. Part of this is because some jurisdictions have a history of persecution by Muslims and so developed an ethnic self-defense mechanism which has hampered conversions.
But the main thing retarding evangelism is ecumenism. “Ecumenical Patriarch” means something entirely different than ecumenism, though it comes from the same root. First of all, “ecumenical patriarch” is a presumptuous title and has been called out as arrogant from the beginning, which is why I no longer use it. But it meant, “universal patriarch”; i.e., the patriarch of all the ecumene – the Christian world. It became synonymous with Constantinople due to its position in the empire and diptychs.
“Ecumenism” means all Christian confessions, or all Trinitarian ones at least, are part of “the Church” and thus reconcilliation through horse trading of doctrine is palatable and desirable. The very notion itself is heterodox and mutually exclusive with the patristic understanding of what the Church is and how it spreads and develops. There are sister churches, of course, but they are the various autocephalous churches of the one Church, not Protestants and Catholics who have adopted heretical doctrines and rejected Orthodox Christianity.
It is true that we in the West have come to a strange arrangement, initially between Protestants and Catholics, to get along and simply sweep the differences under the rug in order to avoid the religious conflicts that earlier plagued the West. But, by your own account in as far as you point out that the Orthodox are late arrivers to the game in the West, you acknowledge that Orthodoxy was never really an official participant in this “ecumenical arrangement”. The problem, from an Orthodox perspective, is that it hampers Orthodox evangelism through the false delusion that other confessions are part of the Church.
If I heard it once I heard it dozens of times in one form or another in the Greek church that they didn’t know why Americans were interested in “Greek Orthodoxy” because they have their own churches. But the fact is, unless they have Holy Orthodoxy, they don’t have the Church at all – just a twisted, defaced icon of the Lord who looks like someone else.
Now, I don’t claim that all of the heterodox are going to hell. However, I do suggest that they cannot attain to the fullness of theosis, being lived by God, even if they are quite devout in their own confession because that type of salvation does not exist outside the Church. They may be “good Christians”. They may treat “the least of these” like Christ Himself and thus avoid perdition and, eventually through some process be admitted to Heaven after they are disabused of the heterodoxy in their souls. But they cannot be true saints in this life. We even dissuade them from practicing hesychasm because without a proper theological and ecclesiological foundation, and outside the supervision of the Church (usually through a starets), it is dangerous and can lead to all sorts of spiritual delusions and demonic torment.
So don’t think you are being nice to those of other Christian confessions by making believe that they are part of the Church. In doing so, you withhold from them the only words of Life.
Greetings, here is where we are today – more than heresy, a full rebellion to Christ in main stream Protestants;
https://dailycaller.com/2023/06/27/lutheran-church-nonbinary-god-jesus-two-dads/
From The Sparkle Creed:
“I believe in the rainbow Spirit,
who shatters our image of one white light
and refracts it into a rainbow of gorgeous diversity.”
From The Lord Of The Rings:
“For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker,
Saruman of Many Colours!”
‘I looked then and saw that his robes,
which had seemed white,
were not so, but were woven of all colours,
and if he moved they shimmered
and changed hue so that the eye was bewildered.
‘ “I liked white better,” I [Gandalf] said.
‘ “White!” he sneered. “It serves as a beginning.
The white cloth may be dyed.
The white page can be overwritten;
and the white light can be broken.”
‘ “In which case it is no longer white,” said I.
“And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is
has left the path of wisdom.”
Brendan, you really are a true Scot! Seriously, if we have a future (that is to say somebody at the Pentagon takes the nuclear football away from Creepy Joe), people will look back at Tolkien and Solzhenytsin as the prophets of the 20th century.
A further thought on The Sparkle Creed:
All that glitters is not pure gold.
Most of it is Fool’s Gold…
Meanwhile, globalists have created a situation where another color revolution – perhaps literally – is happening in France. Interesting timing…
See: https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/france-has-fallen-dramatic-footage-shows-social-unrest-spreading-third-night