Comments Posted By Jacob
Displaying 61 To 90 Of 232 Comments
Dang Carl you are such a sucker for this bulls#*t. You were the perfect foil for Stokoe. I can now see how you so willingly swallowed the amendment to the AAC financial resolution. This whole matter with Fr. Symeon is closed based on no evidence of any wrongdoing. This was the BS being spread by a bishop and a former member of the MC.
All that is new is another poster trying to breath life into a dead story.
» Posted By Jacob On April 6, 2012 @ 10:34 am
Yes, Carl. We can all read. Yes, Carl, he said those words. But, Carl, did he write them or did someone else.
He read them. and as such he “owns” them and he was obedient in going for his “evaluation.” But it does matter if he was forced to say those things, as he was, or said them out of his own conviction.
Again, if you want to know the answer, ask +Jonah yourself. Then you will know. You owe it to yourself since transparency and accountability are two virtues you prize so highly.
If you don’t want to ask him directly then we all know that you are not interested in knowing the whole truth, and we can just leave it at that. OK?
» Posted By Jacob On March 17, 2012 @ 10:29 am
Last posting for tonight. I promise.
Carl, I will take you at your word that you really want to know all the facts. Tell you what, you don’t believe me, so why don’t you ask +Jonah himself? With regards to “Jonah’s admission” why don’t you call him and ask him if that section of his report was given to him to be read by the Synod or if he wrote it himself of his own freewill. Call him in Syosset or in DC. Ask him yourself. Maybe you live close to where he might be, and you can ask him in person. I have always found that to be the best way to get down to the facts.
Then when you find out, you can live with it too. OK?
» Posted By Jacob On March 16, 2012 @ 9:23 pm
You should work on despising people. It really shows in your posts.
And again, if you don’t like “internet anonymity” here or elsewhere, then you should leave and only post on a site where the moderators require non-anonymity, like the Orthodox Forum. Now there is a place that is free of slanderous accusations where no slime (in your words) balls are tossed.
» Posted By Jacob On March 16, 2012 @ 9:09 pm
See above…..
» Posted By Jacob On March 16, 2012 @ 9:02 pm
Your definition of “CONCILIAR” is not biblical, dear friend, but rather defined as “egalitarianism.” because, as you have said so clearly, the Metropolitan is a figurehead. If he, as the First Hierarch is a figurehead to his synod and to us, then pray tell what is a diocesan bishop to his diocesan council? By your logic and definition, a figurehead.
And, if you are interested, our freedom in Christ is freedom from sin, not some misguided definition of Christian freedom within the “democratic” constructs, or worse, “all power to the soviet.”
I don’t know about you, but I am a monarchists. I have a King. My King is the King of Glory. You, however appear to be more comfortable in a “presbyterian” church structure because you seem to mistrust the episcopate. That is too bad. I hope you can get some help with that.
» Posted By Jacob On March 16, 2012 @ 9:02 pm
Spasi,
The whole idea that a priest, like Garklavs, serves at the pleasure of his boss, in this case, the Metropolitan is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO PASSE’. We are all now Free Men. The late Arb. Job so anointed us.
A bishop in the new OCA, is a figurehead. We dress him up. He is of utilitarian use. He ordains. I mean, we need more Free Men, so we must put up with him. Then we dispatch him so us Free Men can do the real work. You know, Strategic Plans, MC, etc.
Spasi, you really need to get with the program. The OCA is the antithesis of all those “old world” Orthodox. We, again, as Free Men, will decide what is best. We don’t even need those “old world” Orthodox figureheads to even recognize us Free Men of the OCA.
In the new OCA, the bishops work for us Free Men. If we don’t like a bishop, we get rid of him. We tell him that we want them to have term limits. If we don’t like the bishop we say such things like “the Holy Spirit was absent in Pittsburgh.” If we don’t like our Figurehead, we say such things like he is “gravely troubled.” If we don’t like him, we force the Figurehead to take blame for everything and then we send him to a looney bin so that he can evaluated. Don’t you agree that “re-education camps” are important?”
No, Spasi, the new OCA is in full view of all those Orthodox both here and around the old world. It is quite impressive, I know you would agree.
But, dang, that darn Figurehead of a Metropolitan, he better not be a Free Man too because he won’t be a Figurehead any more if he doesn’t think like the rest of us and do what we want him to do. That would be a bad thing in the new OCA. He was not being a Figurehead when he found out that Garklavs was not working for him but against him. Our Figurehead was acting badly. He had to be put back in his place.
I know it will take you some time, but you will come to understand that bishops in the new OCA are just Figureheads. We don’t have to listen to them when we don’t want to. We only do what they say when we agree with them.
Now, don’t you feel better? Come on. Be a Free Man.
» Posted By Jacob On March 16, 2012 @ 2:55 pm
Yeah, Dio, that darn Metropolitan not acting the way you think he should, how did you put it, oh yes, a “figurehead.”
As long as he isn’t a “figurehead” you won’t be happy. I am sorry.
» Posted By Jacob On March 16, 2012 @ 2:25 pm
Maybe “outrage” is a bit too strong. Let me say it is wrong, as in not the best solution for the Archdiocese of Canada to most effectively administer the Gospel.
» Posted By Jacob On March 16, 2012 @ 7:40 am
Joseph,
It is an outrage that the OCA includes the Archdiocese of Canada, especially when you have your own Assembly of Bishops in an effort to work out your own issues. You all have been the ugly step-child (no offense intended, just a metaphor) from the very start…..Orthodox Church in America (and Canada, and oh yes, Mexico).
Canada is not the USA and especially the approach to immigrants to the respective nations. Different histories, different views of government, the role of ethnic peoples, their religions, etc.
It is time for Orthodox Canadians to unite under one local Church. The OCA was a good port for you all, but it is time for all Orthodox Canadians to set sail in one ship together.
» Posted By Jacob On March 16, 2012 @ 7:10 am
Carl,
What you fail to grasp is that the DC nuns are safe now. They are beyond the grasp of those who tried to quiet them by sending them back to Greece.
True facts are not slander and the people that really need to know the facts surrounding the DC nuns inside and more importantly outside OCA know the facts.
You have heard no outcry from the OCA Synod over this matter. They will continue to be quiet because they have too much to lose by stirring up this up. In particular, +Mel will be the most quiet about this because he has to most to lose. No threats here. Nothing implied. Just another sad chapter in the new OCA. The coverup was worst than the original mistake.
In the end, the DC Nuns are the winners. The ROCOR wins, even to some extent +Jonah wins because he released them and got them to safety. The OCA lost, again. It is all too bad and was so unnecessary.
And one final point, stop calling people cowards. If the moderator on this forum allows people to remain anonymous those are his rules. If you don’t like them, then take it up with him. If he doesn’t change the rules and you still don’t like it, then leave.
My name is Jacob, and I approved this message.
» Posted By Jacob On March 15, 2012 @ 8:39 pm
Pravoslavnie,
You have summed it up to a tee. What is it called, collateral damage.
» Posted By Jacob On March 15, 2012 @ 3:29 pm
Spasi,
No need to waste your time trying to reason with Diogenes. He has shown by his own words that he is not a serious contributor to this site. He is another Ashley like writer with a particular axe to grind and Jonah is his name.
» Posted By Jacob On March 15, 2012 @ 3:28 pm
Robert,
The section of the Statute you quote is very clear and when coupled with Article IV Section 2, subsection 10 that the Metropolitan…..
“Receives petitions for admission of clergy from other Orthodox Churches” it is the historic and correct practice that the office of the Primate is the touchpoint between Churches (outside the OCA). The section you quote is clear once clergy and monastics are within the OCA and then assigned to a particular diocese. They then become the responsibility of the diocesan bishop.
Monastics must be under a bishop, thus a bishop must release them and another bishop receive them. Thus they are treated as clergy in the protocol of release and acceptance from one Church to another.
The DC Nuns did have proper release papers from Greece and were thus accepted properly by Jonah from another Church (Greece) into his own diocese, Washington. The same cannot be said for Bishop Mel. His “release” from Greece to the OCA was clouded because he left his home monastery without a blessing from his elder, Most Reverend Archimandrite, Elder Dionysios, who was also and still is the spiritual father for the nuns. That is tantamount to a priest leaving his parish without the blessing of his bishop. Thus any actions taken after that are, at best, are debatable and at worst uncanonical calling into question the efficacy of his consecration and standing in the OCA.
The key too all of this is that +Mel only needed to return to his monastery, present himself to the Elder, ask his forgiveness for the actions he did and the entire episode would be resolved.I am not aware that such an action on the part of +Mel has taken place.
All of this was known to +Jonah last year and was of particular insult when +Mel was made interim chancellor by the Synod. This did nothing to promote our relationship with the Church of Greece nor Constantinople who also knew of +Mel’s clouded status. I know some people do not think this is important because “WE ARE THE OCA” but it does matter since the OCA needs to do all things properly and in good order to be above any reproach.
Well, we missed that one.
Nonetheless, the DC Nuns are safe, growing and being blessed by God with an amazing new location which has all the potential to make this new community here in the USA under the God-protected omophor of Met. Hilarion a true center of pilgrimage and Orthodox witness.
Another missed opportunity for the OCA.
» Posted By Jacob On March 15, 2012 @ 2:44 pm
DIogenes,
The more you open your mouth, the more you reveal your utter lack of any serious knowledge not only of the facts but the prerogatives of the First Hierarch of the OCA.
1. As Primate he is the only one who can directly invite monastics (and clergy) into the OCA. No diocesan bishop has that right. A diocesan bishop must go through the office of the Metropolitan to accept clergy and monastics from another Church.
2. Your assertion that +Jonah needed the Synod’s approval is simply not true. He did not. (See #1) The possibility that some bishops (two in particular) thought that he needed their approval is not +Jonah’s issue but theirs.
3. The fact that one bishop on the Synod knew these nuns very well, and more importantly that the nuns knew this bishop and in particular his sloppy departure from Greece caused that bishop to spread terrible rumors about the nuns. This only exacerbated the fowl stench surrounding the attempts to oust Jonah using the nuns as a club to beat up +Jonah.
4. Your assertion that the OCA had to support this move is again untrue. This was the move of the Primate who is also a diocesan bishop and the nuns were within his diocese, therefore no other bishop need bother themselves about this, but some on the Synod could not help themselves and acted in an uncanonical manner sticking their noses in the internal affairs of Metropolitan Washington Diocese.
5. The fact that ROCOR took these nuns, a move that they will richly be rewarded for in the years to come, was a blessing because of the kindness and spiritual generosity and care of Met. Hilarion of ROCOR. He did the right thing and if anything he saved these nuns so that they can minister as monastics here in the USA. He only had to do this because the OCA Synod acted in such an horrible manner.
6. And do note, the fact that +Jonah released them to the ROCOR again proves his prerogatives as the First Hierarch of the OCA because he along is responsible for releasing clergy and monastics to another Church. Again note that he did not do it with any approval from the Synod because he did not need it.
You might check your facts and at least know proper church ecclesiology before writing here again because you are coming off as an illiterate poser.
» Posted By Jacob On March 15, 2012 @ 1:11 pm
@Diogenes
Sorry about the tangent, but it serves as another example of how the “facts” we were fed by Stokoe were a cold dish of self-serving baloney and Maymon was too self-centered to know he was being played. Now he really believes the Stokoe storyline that he was a “victim.” More baloney. Ask the folks in the DOS. They want no part of him, but he still hangs around living off inviting himself to parishes so he can get a check.
» Posted By Jacob On March 10, 2012 @ 12:29 pm
StephenD,
The AOCA is not an “autocephalous” church as the OCA fashions itself. The “self-rule” phase of the AOCA was never fully recognized by Antioch. +Met. Philip is the man from Antioch here in the USA. As you said, he rules and controls. That is just a fact of life for the Archdiocese.
My guess is that when he reposes, Antioch will not lessen its grip on the AOCA but will tighten it. Frankly all the “House of Cards” will collapse here in the USA if the Assembly of Bishops present to the Great and Holy Council the plan for a local Orthodox Church here. If, they do, that is.
» Posted By Jacob On March 10, 2012 @ 12:23 pm
And when will you enlist Diogenes or have your children enlist to fight another war in the mideast? It is easy to bomb, send troops, “win” a military victory, but then what? More USA national building? Yeah, good luck with that. If our record was batting average, we would be batting .000 since WWII.
In one sentence you say “mass murderer of his own people cannot be condoned by any Christian church for any reason” and then you go on to say, “Send in drones….Special Ops….” Drones kill innocent people. Special Ops to capture Assad? This is not a Tom Clancy novel.
Our vital interest in the region has always been oil. and being the backstop for Israel. The USA could care a rip for the people of the Middle East unless it has to do with Israel or oil.
I agree with you that Assad will answer for his decisions but when did the USA become judge and jury for the world?
Try this on for size, until the people of the USA authorize a war and are willing to pay for it, why don’t we stop borrowing money from the Chinese to pay for our prosecution of adventurism. If the American people want to go to war, so be it.Then we pay for it, and I would go so far as to say, bring back the draft so that all men and women do their duty instead of a professional mercenary force we have now. These non-declared wars have put us in the poor house. Enough is enough.
» Posted By Jacob On March 10, 2012 @ 12:16 pm
Joseph,
You bring a cold hard dose of reality into this conversation, which for some might be a jarring blow when it comes to the foreign policy of the USA. No one condones the brutal attempts of any government to put down a revolt of its people but in looking at the alternative that is rising up in Syria, a militant group of Islamists, Syria may not be the better for it.
Metropolitan Philip has pillared by the likes of Mark Stokoe and his sidekick Bp. Mark Maymon who teamed up to paint +Philip the focus of all things bad in the Antiochian Archdiocese. Maymon supplied Stokoe with all the information that Stokoe spun on his website when Maymon was doing his best to bite the hand of his brother bishop and Metropolitan.
It is common knowledge now that Met. Philip revamped his entire Archdiocese to protect it from the likes of Maymon, a disobedient cleric who refused an assignment in the Archdiocese in the Northwest because of his undiagnosed condition of S.A.D. He played the role of “the victim” much to the delight of Stokoe who used that to beat up on +Philip.
And so, sadly, the OCA picked up the disobedient +Mark and he promptly wreaked havoc on the OCA DOS and immorally used the private emails of Fr. Joseph Fester as a weapon to get rid of Fester and to show his ungrateful nature against another Metropolitan, this time Jonah; again using his sidekick Stokoe. But, alas, +Mark again played the poor misunderstood victim card, which he does to this day as he travels around the DOS and actively campaigns for the vacant See of Dallas.
+Philip is a tough customer when he needs to be and that is when he is called to protect his flock from wolves. I do not go so far as to equate him with Assad or Assad with him, but I too am not going to dismiss out of hand the positions of Russia and China either who blocked the UN Resolutions against Syria.
There is no doubt that if Assad falls to this rag tag bunch of Islamist militants, Christians and other religious minorities in Syria will be under the knife of Islam. And lest we forget, when our nation was faced with Civil War, nearly 700,000 Americans, North and South died. And when faced with the “relocation” of the Native American population, we did not think twice to “relocate” them by any and all means possible.
I pray for all involved in the Syria because God knows the real score and he will finally settle it.
» Posted By Jacob On March 10, 2012 @ 7:28 am
George,
Thanks for your moderation as the moderator in the monitoring of AN. I am not sure that he can add anything new to what he has already said here and other places. We know how he feels about the Ephraimite monks, the Elder, and Orthodoxy. I don’t believe that all his writing here and other places has helped him to deal with the root causes of his bitterness, in fact, it may just make it worse. His soapbox is well known.
A “timeout” might cause him to do some recollection, it is worth a try. Every other effort here so far has not worked.
» Posted By Jacob On March 8, 2012 @ 4:20 pm
More Good News? Metropolitan Jonah on Orthodox Unity
There you go again Diogenes, acting like a OCA Free Man. Ever graduate from SVS?
» Posted By Jacob On March 20, 2012 @ 4:32 pm
Diogenes
You may to check out the “dying ROCOR” as you put it.
Like Mark Twain reports of its demise are greatly exaggerated!
Oh, btw, this is just one ROCOR diocese.
» Posted By Jacob On March 20, 2012 @ 2:59 pm
PdnNJ,
I really doubt that the Archons will stop support the EP or the St. Ignatius Society, Damascus or other groups in the pathwork that is Orthodoxy in the USA. Why should they? Foreign Aid in the USA has a long history!
I say again, that a unified Orthodox Church in the USA becomes a power voice for oppressed Orthodox around the world. Thus it is not just the Greeks who support the EP or the AOCA supporting Christians in Lebanon or Jordan or Syria, but all Orthodox, etc. A united Orthodox voice advocating with Congress to stop the suffering of Christians in Homs.
Today, we are not a united voice and thus we weaken our witness here and where our united witness can be important. Of course it will take time for this voice to be fully in tune and become a strong voice, but we already know the alternative. We are living it.
Like the USA, a nation of many ethnic voices and concerns, a united Orthodox Church will also reflect this national reality. Love for homeland should be seen as a burden nor should it be seen as counter to the future of a Local Church here in the USA. In time, by God’s Grace all the genuine expressions of Orthodoxy here can have the chance to cross pollinate and a truly unique expression of Orthodoxy can be added to those of other Local Churches around the world.
So we will see how our leaders act. Like feudal lords of their own manors when they next meet as the ACOB or as historic figures in the birth of a Local Church.
» Posted By Jacob On March 20, 2012 @ 2:29 pm
yada, yada, yada. Thanks for offering the OCA party line again.
Of course I did not say the OCA was not canonical, rather that ROCOR is more canonical. Calm down Diogenes, you just proved what I said.
You may be correct that ROCOR as we know it will be fully reunited with the MP. That does not mean it is a dying sect.
You may actually want to check how many Orthodox Churches actually commemorate Met. Jonah when he is not present.
But of course, all of this means precious little when it comes to how the OCA and Orthodoxy unity in the USA.
You say my conclusions about Moscow and the OCA is “ridiculous.” Really. Prove it. What sources do you have in the MP that are telling you that the MP will stake everything on the OCA?
Come on Diogenes. You are just, as the old song goes, “Wishn and Hopn” that somehow the OCA will be that shining light of Orthodoxy on the hill. You want to hold on to the dream. I think that is noble and the OCA has a role to play in shaping the future structure of Orthodoxy in the USA and how it will be united as one Church that fully reflects Eucharistic unity and Administrative unity.
But really, you keep repeating the same mantra, “Foreign bishops, canonically, have no authority here.” That is not reality here in the USA. We need to be a local Church but the OCA is not that path. That door closed a long time ago. If you want to still drag out the “You want to be under foreign bishops……” when did I say that?
Please before you push the send button, calm down. Carefully read what I write and then respond because this latest outburst of yours only reveals why Orthodoxy unity in this country will take patience and sacrifice on everyone’s part. Are you willing to work for it or just take your toys and play by yourself?
» Posted By Jacob On March 20, 2012 @ 11:39 am
George,
Indeed there is a learning curve for everyone, and maybe most for the GOA. After decades of everybody doing their own thing, cooperation is a much harder process. Maybe the HHS situation uncovers a need for a ACOB response team to deal with such events.
I can’t speak to your apparent sources saying that bishops are not talking to each other. Heck, the OCA Synod doesn’t speak with its Metropolitan, so again, the little boys who wear the mitres are going to wake up and grow up and continue to act locally, but think globally (ACOB).
These same bishops have the opportunity to be historic figures in the life of the Orthodox Church. It is up to them, they have been dealt the cards. If they want to act like jokers, let us hope that won’t last too long.
I think this is where Orthodox clergy and laity, maybe the laity the most, need to add their voice, sorry George OCL won’t do. Too tainted. Rather laity working as it were on a parallel track with the bishops in holding the bishops to account. I don’t say this in an negative confrontational way, but as a reminder that laity really want this worked out.
As for clergy, ACOB needs to create one very important commission, Clergy Pension. If ACOB can come up with a unified clergy pension plan, one HUGE hurdle will be jumped. All clergy paying into one unified Pension Plan move all clergy on the same side.
Finally, laity letting their respective bishops know that we don’t want excuses for why you can’t cooperate, we want to see you cooperate, Everyone has to give to gain the greater good.
» Posted By Jacob On March 20, 2012 @ 11:24 am
George,
I won’t speak to the inner workings of the GOA as OCL understands it.
The central, and I believe the most important point is the “cloudy” status of the OCA. Moscow agreed to the EA process. If Russia was 100%, no question about it, there is already an Autocephalous Church in North America and it is called Orthodox Church in America, therefore, the EA process does not apply to America and those other jurisdictions must join the OCA. That would have been the logical progression of the MP support for the OCA and its “right” to establish a local church.
We know they did not do that. Why? Because Russia now has ROCOR under its wing and ROCOR is not just here but in those other affected areas that the EA process is underway. Thus, ROCOR is more important to the MP and ironically now more “canonical” than the OCA. The only way the OCA becomes more important (influential) here in the USA is if goes back under Moscow. Thus the MP with ROCOR and the OCA becomes a much bigger player in the ACOB process in the USA. However, that is not likely to happen, although +Jonah understands this.
Another piece of this international puzzle, which will make folks like Diogenes really angry is that Moscow values the Ukraine much more highly than it does North America. If there is a potential “war” between Moscow and Constantinople, it won’t be over the USA but the Ukraine. Moscow will not let the EP infringe on the Ukraine. If Moscow had to choose she would have no problem letting the OCA fend for itself if it meant a choice between the OCA and the Ukraine.
All of this is to say that the OCA has no real support any longer and certainly by “going it alone” as the brave like Stokoe (who by the way has apparently disappeared from his OCA parish in Dayton) and the dreamweaver Hopko. It’s best bet is to fully embrace the ACOB because it has two choices, become a sect or advocate the importance of Orthodox Churches in the USA becoming a Sister Church in a definable realistic timetable.
I believe that the ACOB can get an Autonomous Church status under the EP. Cynics will say “NO GOOD.” But consider, as the Orthodox world’s most powerful Autonomous Church, it would effectively run its own affairs only needing the EP for a specific time to obtain Holy Chrism and gain approval for its bishops which it would nominate and only need a perfunctory “blessing” from the EP. (As an aside, a strong argument could be made for the USA to go under Moscow since it was the first to plant Orthodoxy in North America.) This is unlikely so for those who think under the EP that the EP would only “bless” Greek bishops, do you really think they are going to say NO to non Greek candidates? Really? On the contrary, the EP would be “forced” to bend over backwards to be seen as not favoring Greeks over non Greeks. Besides it is about a 50/50 split Greek/Non Greek in the USA when you add it all up.
The key is a specific date certain for this new Autonomous Church becoming a Sister Autocephalous Church. I would suggest within that timeline broad authority is given to establish new dioceses, draft its Charter, organize its internal life with us Americans keeping a careful eye on any shenanigans to undermine that path. And as the Prophet Isaiah once said, “Lord, how long” before full independence? I would think a realistic period is no longer than 20 years.
As I have said before, the OCA has no hold card to trump the inevitable path to unity except to become a sect, which for all practical purposes it is already. The OCA was a noble experiment, a possible path to unity. It did not work and it will not work. It was a passing dream but like all dreams, we wake up and have to face the light of day. It is time for the clergy and faithful of the OCA to wake up and promote unity in the ACOB process. I think we are willing however is our OCA Synod? It appears +Jonah understands the stakes, but do the others? Time will tell.
» Posted By Jacob On March 20, 2012 @ 8:25 am
Diogenes,
Your use of Istanbul and not Constantinople is, I presume intentional. The fact that Moscow now agrees with all Churches working in a conciliar fashion must agree to the recognition of an autocephalous, means that even the OCA’s Mother Church now recognizes that its unilateral action of granting the OCA its self-governing status is now not the answer.
The OCA is neither “fish nor fowl” at this time. It is given verbal assurances of Moscow standing by her autocephaly, but in fact Moscow has taken a huge step backwards in that she see her role, now as a free Church again, to work in concert with all other Orthodox Churches on this matter (which also includes Western Europe, Australia, South America, Canada and I might have forgotten one, but you see where I am going.)
A local Church in the USA is not going to forget its respective Mother Church. Rather, one Church will be a powerful force to advocate for the rights of Orthodox in countries under the yoke of Islam, for example.
However, the OCA is really in no position to bargin since it holds no leverage whatsoever any longer with Moscow’s realistic stance. The worst thing that could happen is for the OCA to “go it alone” as you seem to think it should, just because we think we are “autochephlous.” At that point we will no longer be part of the solution but part of the problem.
What are you actually afraid of? What do you think is going to happen? What is your biggest fear?
» Posted By Jacob On March 18, 2012 @ 12:34 pm
Diogenes,
The history of the Russian Church an its autocephaly does not in anyway match what it going on here in the USA. Two very different histories and countries. It makes for a nice try, but your attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole just don’t fit.
You have cast your lot with the OCA going it alone. However that is not what the OCA is about, if you really knew its history. You may recall Met. Theodosius in 1989 at the AAC in Pittsburgh when he stated “If Orthodox unity means that we (the OCA) lay aside our autocephaly for the greater goal of one Church here, then we will do so.” He received a standing ovation for his remarks. Jonah in so many words has said the same thing.
If the OCA has morphed into a lone ranger church, full of “piss and ginger”, “damn the torpedos, full steam ahead”, and you want to sail on that ship, I think you will find others either too lazy or too prideful to go along with you.
I still believe that the Holy Sprit is at work in the Church here in the USA. Sin, envy, pride and jealousy are also here working against the Holy Spirit. If one Church is work fighting for it is also work sacrificing for.
I would hope that the appalling lack of consensus building a bipartisan cooperation that our own government is displaying these days is not spilling over into our life of the Spirit in the Church.
Less bravado, more prayer and fasting might do us all well.
» Posted By Jacob On March 17, 2012 @ 6:40 pm
Diogenes,
With such belief it is no wonder that we are still so far away from administrative unity in the USA. Your not so latent racist attitudes toward the Greeks, Ukrainian, and Arab Orthodox is truly sad.
No doubt you gained a good deal of your apparent knowledge of events from that lightweight “history” of “Orthodox Christians in North America 1794-1994″ penned by Mark Stokoe and Leonid Kishkovsky.
You will note that in July 1995 when the OCA celebrated 25 years of the autocephaly from Russia that AAC noted the following:
- autocephaly in 1970 was indeed the right and necessary step, and we should be grateful for it in 1995;
- the OCA is not self-sufficient, but is dedicated to Orthodox mission and unity in America (sorry Canada, you got left out again);
- the OCA is committed to seeking the unity of all Orthodox “jurisdictions” in an Orthodox Church in North America that is canonically and administratively one Church;
- the achievement of this goal requires the understanding, affirmation, and guidance of Constantinople and the other “mother churches” ; and
- such understanding affirmation, and guidance must be sought patiently and persistently.Now, Diogenes, that was a balanced and realistic statement of the facts. The OCA recognized in 1995 and back in 1970, that Constantinople was key to this process of a “canonically and administratively one Church” here in the USA.
What has changed, and for the better, is that the entire Orthodox world, all “mother churches” are focused on the abnormalities of multiple bishops in one city and all that comes from that abnormality. They have directed that areas of the world which fall into this status need to gather and present a plan for administrative unity to the entire Church meeting in a Great and Holy Council.
Instead of trying to find scapegoats, (yes, I know, that is a favorite pastime for the OCA) see the potential of ACOB not as a negative, but as a necessary step in the still needed approval of the entire Orthodox Church world so that they can understand and affirm a local Church in the USA. We still need their guidance which must still be sought patiently and persistently.
All the efforts that have been made over these many years will not be in vain; but, we too have to act with more trust than you display in your angry assault on our brother and sister Orthodox here in the USA who have just as much right to be here as we do. We are all in this together.
» Posted By Jacob On March 17, 2012 @ 3:15 pm
«« Back To Stats PageThe mere mention by +Jonah that the deposition of Protopresbyter Rodion was wrong was met with universal condemnation by the usual suspects, Stokoe, Wheeler, Nathaniel, Benjamin, Nikon, Garretson (of taking a baseball bat to Kondratick’s head fame) Nescott, Hopko. Even the idea sent these folks into a panic.
In the meantime, God has visited these folks in various ways all the while Fr. Bob continues to do the work of the Lord in Venice. A growing parish, full of vitality, outgrowing its present facilities. much to the consternation of the usual suspects who try in vain to be even half the person that Fr. Bob is.
I too agree with the Monk James, until the Kondratick deposition is lifted, the OCA will not be blessed. But the bishops will just table his request to revisit their decision again and again and again.
I applaud +Jonah for wanting to do the right thing but realize that he is not courageous enough to stand up to the usual suspects.
File this under an opportunity to heal, missed.
» Posted By Jacob On March 14, 2012 @ 4:17 pm
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